"We've got Bush(ings)!"

[Tommy Gun Rally]

Hey - feeling a ton of driveline slop in the rally car and am looking into bushing options to upgrade. Car currently has almost all stock bushings, except for some Kartboy stuff here and there.

Couple'a quick questions (for the rally guys - GD especially):

- what are you using for tophats? I am currently using camber plates all around but want to switch over to Group N tophats in the front (one of my plates is borked and the car memory steers) - who is using the Group N rubber ones? Thoughts? I found a set used for 100 miles for $100 shipped - might pull the trigger.

- Who is using the complete Group N bushing kit? anyone? Worth the price of purchase and install? It's like $525 for the set. Is Rallispec the cheapest place to get these?

- who is using the Group N or other (whiteline?) hardened rear control arm bushing (the big one)? We have gone through 4 stock ones in 4 rallies and need a better solution.

-anyone using Kartboy subframe lock (botox) bolts? Thoughts?

Thanks guys!

Eli
TGR/DIRT

[UP2MTNS]

I would give the guys at Turn In Concepts a call with the same questions...they have good pricing too.

the grp N tophats seem like a pretty good deal, I'd pull that trigger. If you don't, can you send them over to me? :)

[Tommy Gun Rally]

The guy is now being a dumbass and saying it was a 'feeler'

[paktinat]

- Who is using the complete Group N bushing kit? anyone? Worth the price of purchase and install? It's like $525 for the set. Is Rallispec the cheapest place to get these?


I have the all the lateral link and the F&R trailing link group N. Rallispec was the cheapest I could find.

I think williaty has all of the group N rubber save the tophat mounts, might PM him.

[JacksonRally]

Jackson Rally has some new super top secret top hats coming out....

Keith and I both use the subframe lock bolts and love em'!!

As far as bushings we have yet to abuse the stock ones enough. Though when they do go I know Keith has some spares (stuff from TiC) but I will end up making whatever I need when the time comes out of Delrin.

[KevinWelker]

We use GrpN rear strut mounts after breaking two stockers, they seem to be the hot ticket giving enough give but not break.

All the other bushings we use are stock and we bust one or two rear control arm bushings per rally. I'm looking at options for those right now too Eli, great minds think alike!! I was thinking of the Whiteline or Kartboy solution but we still play in CRS-GT which doesn't *technically* allow it. Once the CRS rules catch up with Open Light we'll try them for sure.

[Tommy Gun Rally]

Arent the rear LCA bushings liquid filled? Can't we inject them with something and make them less compliant? I've heard of guys doing that before to other bushings...

[KevinWelker]

some of the rear LCA bushings are liquid filled, we tried them once at North Nevada, won't do that again, they lasted one stage and that rally isn't all that rough. I think the liquid filled ones come from legacies, foresters or other such civilized cars. The ones we use are solid rubber and I don't know if you want to fill them as they need to have some rotation between the inner and outer portions to allow the LCA to droop. I've seen some nice delrin pieces before that have no resistance to the droop forces and are likely more durable, but they prep shop that made them wanted a mint for them. I'm sure Kyle Jackson has something like that up his sleeve and if the off the shelf whiteline/Kartboy stuff doesn't work for me, I'll give him a call. Until then we have a few more second hand bushings we will use before we invest any real money into them.

[lorenkb]

Too much Bush is bad Eli, you had better keep that under control! I hear WalMart has some cheap electric trimmers for him and her...


I can't comment on the Group N bushing set, and I'm bypassing the Group N tophats for Jackson Rally's not-so-secret-super-secret-tophats, so there goes that too... BUT I will throw in my two pence on the subframe locking bolts.

The more I look at those things the worse off they seem. You have 4 bushing mount points holding the rear subframe on, and the locking bolts add 2 more that are solid mount. Any motion that was taken up by the stock 4 bushings is now transfered to those 2 bolts. A mix of solid/bushing mounts is bad juju as far as I'm concerned, especially considering how poorly attached the nuts you are screwing into are attached to the shell. I would look at running stiffer bushings or solid mounting the stock 4 attachment points before trying the bandaid fix of adding the 2 locking bolts.

SS thread of goodness. (http://www.specialstage.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36175)

[williaty]

- what are you using for tophats? I am currently using camber plates all around but want to switch over to Group N tophats in the front (one of my plates is borked and the car memory steers) - who is using the Group N rubber ones? Thoughts? I found a set used for 100 miles for $100 shipped - might pull the trigger.
I've had almost every option. Stock rubber, Group N rubber, and spherical bearing. The Group N's are definitely better than stock. However, the spherical bearings are so much better than the Group N's that it's not worth the money to do anything other than spherical bearings.


- Who is using the complete Group N bushing kit? anyone? Worth the price of purchase and install? It's like $525 for the set. Is Rallispec the cheapest place to get these?
Though I didn't buy them as a kit, I'm using all of the Group N bushings except for the ones that require a torch to install. Rallispc or SubaruGenuineParts.com are always the cheapest. The big ones to get are the 4 trailing link bushings, 8 lateral link bushings, and the rear of front LCA bushing (though you may as well just get an ALK).

I would not waste your time/money on the 4 rear subframe bushings, the 2 rear diff outrigger bushings, or the 2 rear diff mount bushings. The Kartoby or TiC products are superior.

- who is using the Group N or other (whiteline?) hardened rear control arm bushing (the big one)? We have gone through 4 stock ones in 4 rallies and need a better solution.
I'm not sure wither your mean rear of front control arm or rear of one of the rear links. If you mean rear of front, I'm using the GT-Spec ALK, which contains a Group N-type hardened rubber bushing.

-anyone using Kartboy subframe lock (botox) bolts? Thoughts?
If your car is new, they're awesome. If you car has ever driven on a road that has been salted, forget about it. Worth the money, though, if you can get them in.

[albascoob]

Eli,

We use the GrpN tophats all round.
Stock bushings everywhere else and so far, no issues.
We'll see how this year goes and update the thread as and when we find problems/solutions.

Having posted this now, they will probably all turn to jelly and fall out in TN next month.

[Tommy Gun Rally]

Well I hope that does not happen. thanks Alba, appreciate the post.

So, having not had the struts off my car since I got it, I can use the Group N tophats with the rally coilovers right? I don't need any other parts? And Kyle - what is the ETA (for Tein fitment) and cost you're hoping to get for yours? Spherical bearings and all that? PM me if need be. Keith and I texted a little about it the other day, just checkin in on those. Thanks.

Eli

[sniper1rfa]

Well, the stockers and groupN's are dimensionally identical, so if the strut works with stock then it will work with groupN.

[albascoob]

Not sure what coilovers you have Eli but I cant imagine there would be an issue.
We installed the GpN tophats straight onto the RS&SPs, no problem.


Dave

[Tommy Gun Rally]

Thanks Dave (got your name this time).

I have Tein HG Gravel suspension.

[JacksonRally]

And Kyle - what is the ETA (for Tein fitment) and cost you're hoping to get for yours? Spherical bearings and all that? PM me if need be. Keith and I texted a little about it the other day, just checkin in on those. Thanks.

Eli

I should have something within a week or two. Any yes, big balls!!!

[lorenkb]

What's the load rating on your big balls Kyle?

[Tommy Gun Rally]

Eww.


So does anyone use Energy Suspension bushings? I know they're noisy but effective?

[Daniel B]

Powerflex bushings are starting to prove themselves up here in Canada. A local shop - FourStar - now sells them. They are finding there way under more and more fast cars...

I however do not have that in the budget, so I can't speak from personal experience.

[Allwheelsdriven.net]

Eli,

All of the Group N bushings and top hats work great. We use them many places on the rally car with no issues to speak of. They can be a bitch to install, especially if you don't have access to a press. ;)

With that said, I have seen all types of tophats fail. That is usually the end result of a bigger strut issue (bound up insert, etc) that transfers the load into the tophat. Something has got to yield in the equation.. Since much of the load is transferred up, into the top of the strut on compression (especially if peglegging), the top hat, and sometimes strut tower get munged up. Spherical bearings typically have more issues on gravel, as there is no rubber or urethene to dampen the shockload.

There are other bushing options, as you mentioned, such as Kartboy, Energy, Superpro, etc. All offer good bang for the buck. We've been using some of the Superpro bushings on a few builds, and they seem to be working well. Especially the LCA bushings. One of your main concerns..:)

Whatever parts you're after for your car, I can get them all. That's what keeps all of our client's rally cars going. Please keep that in mind when you are on "the hunt" for hard to find (or easy to find) parts..

Hope this helps..

Rally On!
Barrett-
www.allwheelsdriven.net (http://www.allwheelsdriven.net)

[UP2MTNS]

Barrett...did you get my PM? its restrictor time...

[Allwheelsdriven.net]

Yes I did..

Please give me call when you get time.

Barrett-
www.allwheelsdriven.net

[409industries]

So does anyone use Energy Suspension bushings? I know they're noisy but effective?

Random fact: Energy Suspension is literally up the street from my office in San Clemente.

[tmcam]

Good decision to make the bushings out of delrin. Made some recently for my subie and they have worked great. Very durable and strong material. I called this place in CA Industrial Plastic Sheet, Slab, Rod and Tube 866-832-9315 (http://www.iplasticsupply.com/) and they help me gets some black rods to machine and they haven't disappointed yet.

[A1337STI]

So does anyone use Energy Suspension bushings? I know they're noisy but effective?

Never saw that, but i installed that kit previously and loved it. sadly most of the bushings had been destroyed in my various offs. :oops: and i now need to buy almost the entire kit over again (price wise that's probably what i'll do)

BTW i never had any noise increase from the kit ... ?!?

[Tommy Gun Rally]

wow! back from the dead thread!

[A1337STI]

anyone know a vendor to get just select bushings from?