Plumbing a hydraulic e-brake [Archive]

Colin

07-19-2007, 12:05 PM

So, I'm switching all my brake lines to braided, and I'm intalling a hydro-ebrake. PRoblem is I'm having a tuff time getting questions answered.

I would like to plumb the hand brake into the rear brake calipers as opposed the the emergency brake or to a seperate caliper.

The hydrolic priciples of non-compressive fluids says I can just Run a splitter from the caliper line to the brake booster and the hand brake, but in practice, will this work? or will this cause other problems or what?

thanks
-colin

I Like It Sideways

07-19-2007, 12:35 PM

409industries

07-19-2007, 01:34 PM

I'm just waiting for 06drtywgn to find this thread.

He has done something similar, and it looks awesome. I haven't had a chance to try it out...

JacksonRally

07-19-2007, 04:27 PM

I'm just waiting for 06drtywgn to find this thread.

He has done something similar, and it looks awesome. I haven't had a chance to try it out...

Huh what, I heard my name :o

Well ive been trying to keep it hush hush what what you are looking for I have just about completed in my car. I will be happy to answer any questions you have. My system is completely hydraulic and 100% bolt on. It is a turning brake for the rear wheels. It can be installed retaining the A.B.S. or removing the A.B.S. (which is what Im doing). The system features steel braided lines at the wheels and complete stainless hardline throughout the car all with AN fittings. The system does not hinder usage of the foot pedal brake (or normal braking operation). I will have pics posted when I start my members journal, but Im having major issues getting pics onto my new laptop so please be patient.

Ive done alot of research on this setup, so shoot and I should be able to answer your questions.

Jackson Rally

Colin

07-19-2007, 08:34 PM

Colin

07-19-2007, 08:48 PM

First off, welcome to DI.com!
This is a good question, could you explain further how you would plan on plumbing this up? I'm not worried about the fluid compressing in practice, that would be minimal if at all.

The SVX master cylinder has 4 line attachments directly on it. 2 front 2 rear (obviously) The thread is 10mm X 1in. I ordered adapters to change from 10mm to -6 an on all four line outs.

The cylinder feed one down and one to the drivers fender for both front and rear brakes.

the front down will plumb approx 2.5ft of steel braided line with earls swivel seal ends one straight, one 45 degree into another -6 AN to 10mm adaptor then into SS brakelines from the stock location on the drivers front.

The front side runs 10mm to -6AN adaptor into Earls swivel seal 90 degree elbow,approx 5 ft of braided cable runs along the firewall the down to another 45 Swivel seal. Again connecting via adaptor to an SS line in the stock location.

Both rears run like the side front, 90 degree elbows and adaptors, firewall. then the enter the cabin. I'm not sure if I will plumb the Wilwood proportioning valves next to the passengers seat, Somewhere in the (non -existent) back seat, or see about mounting them on the drive shaft tunnel for on the fly adjustment. the lines are 12 feet and 17 feet respectively.

Again the rears run to SS lines in the stock location, but this time off one 180 degree swivel seals.

thats the jist of it anyway.

JacksonRally

07-20-2007, 09:04 AM

Here the setup:

I have a GC, ABS and factory brake lines removed. I have upgraded to an SVX NON-ABS Master Cylinder/Brake booster, giving me the largest OEM setup available.

I am waiting on an Order of Earls stainless brake lines to replace the factory hardline. I will be running wilwood proportioning valves on the rear lines inside the cabin. All lines are -6 AN

I just purchased a K-sport Hydro hand brake. 3/4 inch resivior.

I need to know how to go about plumbing the handbrake into my rear calipers to allow me to lock the rear wheels instead of just pushing fluids back into my Brake booster resivior.

thanks
-colin

Well to start Im hoping you are mistaken about the -6 lines. I have never ever heard of a race car or any car with -6 brakelines?? You should be running -3. Now not knowing anything about the K-sport setup I can tell you that the master cylinder Im using intercepts the rear brake line (it is inline with the rear brake line) so under normal operation fluid passes right through it but when using the handbrake it just pressurizes the fluid from that point to the rear calipers. I would imagine the K-sport setup would be real similiar(im gonna do some research on the k-sport brake). My car is a GD and my master cyl/brake booster has only 2 porta and they are 10mm inverted flare and Ive got fittings to adapt 10mm to -3. Also I would minimize the amount of steel braided line usage. You should use as much hardline as possible on the chassis and leave the steel braided for the corners or where the suspension cycles and steers(only where you need a flexible line), with to much "soft line" you end up with a mushy pedal.

JacksonRally

07-20-2007, 09:24 AM

I found the k-sport site and the handbrake, that thing looks sweet!! I didnt find much other info on it though but by looking at the picture I would be 99% sure its just going to plumb inline with your rear brake line. My guess is (by looking at the picture) the port with the red plug would be the inlet and the green plug would be the outlet? It looks like the angle and positioning of the ports are such that it would be difficult for fluid to return to the reservior, also Im sure the positioning of the piston is really close to the inlet so when you pull the handle it cuts the inlet immediatly and pressurizes from that point back. You should only have one brake line going to the rear wheels then when you get close to the rear-end it should "tee off" and go to left and right rear brakes.

Colin

07-20-2007, 10:44 AM

Well, I'll just have to wait until the e-brake get heres to see, If it's inline that should be easy.

Are you sure about braided lines squishing? we have a lot of dirt track racing up here, and they all run braided lines without hardlines and have no problems.

JacksonRally

07-20-2007, 11:05 AM

Well I did more research for you!!! I never asked your question because the setup I got was designed to work like I stated earlier. Anyways in mine and Im bettin in your e-brake there is a check valve inside the master cylinder allowing pressure to only go in one direction (toward the rear brakes)!!!! So when you get that beautiful thing you should just have to plumb it into the rear brake line.(instructions provided should tell you which is the in and out).

Yea 100% on a full "soft line" system being squishy. Thats why we replace the stock soft lines at our wheels with steel braided line kits. The rest of the system should be hard line(like it is stock) but replacing the stock soft steel with stainless is the way to go, that and the stock steel does not like to flare for use with AN fittings without cracking at the edge so stainless goes without question.

JacksonRally

07-20-2007, 11:06 AM

BTW the stainless you need is .187 x .020 wall (-3)

Colin

07-20-2007, 01:06 PM

Yep, just got back from a local "race only" shop. Got me all squared away for hardlines and adaptors.

yay..

UP2MTNS

07-20-2007, 01:30 PM

hmmm, another cool mod. I found the ebrake online, but not really following along with all this adapter talk, new brake lines, and different master cylinders. Got links to all that? what's the estimated total bill on this project?

JacksonRally

07-20-2007, 02:56 PM

UP2 Id help if I knew how to make the little linky blinky things :roll: The adapters are just to change out the factory fittings with AN fitting. And most of the ports on the stock master cylinders are 10mm and you would need to adapt them from that to -3 AN fitting. I have all the fittings you would need for use with or without ABS. I dont however have a price breakdown on the system I am offering (but it will work in your car!!!)

Colin

07-20-2007, 05:22 PM

I'm looking at like $400 and 5hours of labor, but I already own the brakeline bending tool and a double flare end tool.

handbrake = 170
Proportioning valves 2 x 70 (you may only need 1)
line= 40 feet like 40-80 bucks depending on regular or stainless and where you get it.

ends= re-use yours + 2-4 more from the dealership.

that about it.

JacksonRally

07-22-2007, 04:31 PM

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa15/Jackson-Rally/keithscamera006.jpg

Hard to see in the pic but the handle goes up to center line of the str wheel and is positioned between the wheel and the shifter for easy use. Also the handle is all you have out to give it that sleeper look!!

I Like It Sideways

07-23-2007, 08:04 AM

^^ That is amazing. Excellent work. I like this thread a lot. Plenty of useful info, you guys are awesome.

JacksonRally

07-23-2007, 09:48 AM

^^ That is amazing. Excellent work. I like this thread a lot. Plenty of useful info, you guys are awesome.

Here is a pic of the actual cylinder mounted under the center console, the stock panel that covers this will need some minor trimming but should fit to hide it.
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa15/Jackson-Rally/keithscamera.jpg

rexy04

01-15-2009, 09:49 PM

How much does this system cost? Would it fit a right-hand drive car?

Cheers

Matt

JacksonRally

01-15-2009, 09:59 PM

How much does this system cost? Would it fit a right-hand drive car?

Cheers

Matt

Sorry I abandoned that particular design.

GodSquadMandrake

01-16-2009, 12:08 AM

My hydraulic knowledge isn't that good. I don't understand how this works. Is there a diagram or layman's terms to explain this better? I understand what the hydraulic handbrake is doing, I just don't understand how the plumbing is working. A buddy of mine plumbed one of these once and I saw it, but I still didn't figure out how it worked! lol.

rollo

01-16-2009, 08:16 AM

The hydraulic handbrake lines tap into the rear brake lines.

It works like this (more or less):
1. Pull big lever
2. Bottom of lever pushes actuator piston
3. Actuator piston pushes brake fluid
4. Brake fluid pushes caliper piston
5. Caliper piston pushes brake pad against brake rotor

The standard cable-operated handbrake, which uses a drum/shoe-style setup inside the rear rotor, is unaffected.

The reason you'd want to go hydraulic is that the drum brakes are designed for holding a car still, not stopping the wheels in motion. Consequently, if you use the cable-operated handbrake in motion, you'll end up stretching/breaking the cable and/or wearing down the brake shoes inside the rotor - a situation made worse when the rear wheels are driven and/or when the surface has a lot of grip.

In an AWD car you also have to pay attention to the effect that locking the rear wheels at speed will have on your centre differential. In a car with an old-school viscous coupling, you want to be on the clutch when you pull the handbrake. In a car with an electronic diff that can disconnect drive from the rear, you need to be sure to hook up that switch so it does so.

I once heard that the Group B Peugeot 205s did not have handbrakes, as the risk to the (primitive by today's standards) AWD drivetrain was considered to be too high to warrant one...

GodSquadMandrake

01-16-2009, 09:56 AM

So is there essentially just a T fitting into the rear brake lines from the hydraulic hand brake?

driveclimbslide

01-16-2009, 04:23 PM

That's how mine is done. Can't bleed it to save my life though...

409industries

01-16-2009, 04:46 PM

I cant wait to go to a hydraulic turning brake setup... stainless lines throughout the car is sexy as hell though.

BTW in case you haven't noticed Jackson Rally has turning brakes on lock.

rexy04

01-19-2009, 10:43 PM

That's how mine is done. Can't bleed it to save my life though...

So a dual in, dual out master cylinder isn't required and you get to keep your ABS for 'normal' brake usage?

driveclimbslide

01-23-2009, 04:27 AM

Rexy,

Sorry, I deleted my abs. Dual in, dual out master cylinder. 1 out goes to a tee then to front brakes. The other out runs to the prop. valve, handbrake, tee, then to the rears. Not sure if/how it would work with the abs. :crazy:

rexy04

01-26-2009, 08:10 PM

Thanks mate :mrgreen:

Jordanh

06-13-2009, 02:18 PM

this threads been buried for a little while....

does anyone know if you can purchase just the base and cylinder for the hydro e-brake?

i can machine the rest myself. i could want to do the base myself also but have no access to sheet metal equipment and welding equipment.

noisycricket

06-13-2009, 06:14 PM

Jordanh

06-13-2009, 11:14 PM

All a hydro handbrake is is a master cylinder plumbed inline with the rear brakes.

ANY 5/8" bore master cylinder will work, as long as you can thread a brake line into the inlet.

This basically means any clutch master cylinder, or generic single-throw master like what is used on a balance bar style braking setup.

alright, kyle was saying in one of his posts that these have check valves in them, which led me to believe they were a special cylinder?

GodSquadMandrake

06-13-2009, 11:29 PM

Thanks noisycricket that actually simplifies it for me.

noisycricket

06-14-2009, 08:16 AM

alright, kyle was saying in one of his posts that these have check valves in them, which led me to believe they were a special cylinder?

No check valves. If there was a check valve, it wouldn't work.

The hydraulic handbrake M/C is plumbed inline, not tee'd in. When it's plumbed inline, it acts like a passthrough under you grab the lever. Actually all master cylinders act like passthroughs until applied...

http://i44.tinypic.com/14ca4ua.jpg

Jordanh

06-15-2009, 04:21 PM

alright i have one question thats been bothering me with the k-sport handbrake. theres obviously a mounting point on the handle of the brake that attached to the body of the e-brake. on that handle there is a clevis pin that attachs the rod that pushs the piston of the cylinder.

my question is, is that when you pull on the handle to apply the brake it is going to pivot on that pivot point. this is going to make the clevis pin move up, or down, depending upon how you have that positioned compared to the pivot point.

how does k-sport compensate for this, or is the rod that pushs the piston that flexible?

noisycricket

06-15-2009, 05:08 PM

All master cylinders with a pushrod on them have a pivot on the M/C end of the pushrod, too, usually just a really simple hemispherical end on the pushrod mating with a countersunk section, maybe with a snapring/groove arrangement to keep the pushrod from falling out but not always.

Most clutch master cylinders for example just have the pushrod going into a maybe 1" deep hole, so even if things separate, the rod can't fall out.

The Wilwood M/C I used for my hydro handbrake has a clipped-in style pushrod, probably because it was designed to be one of the masters on a dual master cylinder braking setup and when brakes are concerned, there is much paranoia about things coming apart.

Jordanh

06-15-2009, 05:21 PM

this pivot point your talking about would be under the rubber boot of the master cylinder?

this is the one im looking at. you can almost see in the pic that it is sagging a bit, maybe thats just me.

http://cncbrakes.com/mc.asp?grp=mc&subgrp=swo&series=711&subseries=

also, i was thinking about using this to replace the stock e-brake.. is it a bad idea to use the hydraulic e-brake for the same function as the stock e-brake. for example, lock it when you park on a hill? i've heard its not good to keep pressure on hydro brakes for a long period of time?

i appreciate all the help!!

noisycricket

06-15-2009, 07:26 PM

I don't think it would be wise to trust it long-term.

Plus the reason why the handbrake uses a cable, is because in the event of a total hydraulic failure (not impossible) you can still have an alternate form of slowing the car down. That's why it's also called the EMERGENCY brake.

We like to joke at work, the parking brake has a cable, the emergency brake is the one next to the throttle pedal... :) But you get the point.

BTW - 5/8" (.625", 16mm) bore! I have a .700 and shoulda went to .625 like damned near everybody said to. Oh well, it was really cheap. And it *will* lock the rear wheels as long as I'm braking hard to begin with, so it's still functional.

Jordanh

06-15-2009, 08:25 PM

thank you! i'll remember the .625" bore. i would think the bigger bore would be better... i dont really understand the concept to that. (i'm no hydraulics genius, thats for sure.

Jordanh

06-17-2009, 11:29 AM

well i got a few minutes of spare time on the cnc today at work and got this cut out. i still have to bore the hole for the bearing, but dont have it yet. i ordered a 7/8" bearing, but is probably somewhere in the .8740-.8760" range. i felt it was best to wait until the bearing arrived before cutting the bore beings i want to press fit the bearing in..

i also have a handle drawn up for it, so hopefully i'll find some time in the next 2 weeks.:jack:

http://i542.photobucket.com/albums/gg438/haugenjordan/DSC02898.jpg

snicker

07-15-2009, 12:48 PM

Colin, You ever get it working? I'm about to start installing mine but don't know where to start. I' figured since it's an 02 i can disable abs and still use the auxillary pump. can you break down exactly what you did and what fittings, etc. I'll need.

snicker

08-02-2009, 08:42 AM

I just finished my hydraulic handbrake and heres how it went.

I broke the rear lines on the passenger side.
rerouted them to the center console.
I used a Ksport handbrake.
there was an issue with fittings. I ended up using literally the brake lines for a gm truck. they had the right fittings attached and had about 6 inches of rubber line with a 3/16 line fittings on the other side.
I placed the handbrake inside the center console beside the parking brake.
the handbrake works great. Next I'm going to make a bracket for the lever so I can move it up to the steering wheel. The piston is threaded so i'll just attach to it and run to the lever. As long as theres no deflection in the attached peice, when I pull the brake, it'll work great and be minimal which is what I like to keep the car about.