Shifting

[MBasile]

Ok, so how do you all shift when rally-x'ing? Do you guys try to minimize downshifting and has anyone been able to effectively heal-toe shift? I've done 4 rally-x's but between now and the next one my 4EAT is being converted to a 5spd with RA gears. I'll have about 2 months to get used to the new tranny, but I'd like to know what techniques to practice. Thanks guys.

[UP2MTNS]

unlike most suby guys, I can easily downshift into 1st from 2nd, at any speed. So I don't worry too much about rev matching as I come into a turn if I'm already in second.

a quart of Redline MT-90 in the tranny really helps with that.

However, shifting still takes time, so if I can stay in first, I do. If that means bouncing off the rev limiter, so be it. Just be careful....6-7Krmps for 90+ seconds at only 20mph leads to some high engine temps. I have a BIG koyo race radiator and i've still seen my temps spike. I'm planning on getting a 160degree thermostat.

Staying in first means I don't worry about turbo lag either and it makes it much easier to flick your car around a corner.

Honestly, the only times I've ever gotten into 2nd is if there's a straight away longer than 50 yards.

STI guys might have a different story since their 1st gear is so short.

[409industries]

Yep, in the STi its not that big of a deal to put it into second and just leave it there for most of the course. I will actually drop into first gear if it is very twisty, or a really hard turn that requires a lot of power on exit.

For the 5 speed gearing, most rallyx courses will be done entirely in first gear. As UP2MTNS said, this gives you little turbo lag and you dont waste time shifting and bogging into 2nd.

Watch that limiter, and keep an eye on engine temps if you stay in first!

[lminette]

I agree. First gear is the way to go. I usually will shift into second on the straights though. I find that first gear allows me to use throttle modulation more effectively. Second gear can get you into trouble sometime just ask rally obxt (aka Hollywood). Ha ha

[I Like It Sideways]

I use 1st and 2nd equally as much. Downshifting into first does require heel-toe for me. I try to avoid shifting during a turn, especially if I'm sideways. If I have to shift mid-turn, I will usually slip the clutch out to make the power delivery as smooth as possible and avoid breaking out the tires.

[MBasile]

thanks for the input guys. The RA gearset I'm having put in is a close ratio gearset so its going to be different than stock WRX's, I'm guessing it'll be somewhere between WRX's and STi's in terms of how long each gear is.

My gear ratios will be:
STi RA ratios: 3.083 (1st), 2.062 (2nd), 1.545 (3rd), 1.151 (4th), 0.825 (5th)

again I don't really know what those numbers mean :tongue:

[UP2MTNS]

thanks for the input guys. The RA gearset I'm having put in is a close ratio gearset so its going to be different than stock WRX's, I'm guessing it'll be somewhere between WRX's and STi's in terms of how long each gear is.

My gear ratios will be:
STi RA ratios: 3.083 (1st), 2.062 (2nd), 1.545 (3rd), 1.151 (4th), 0.825 (5th)

again I don't really know what those numbers mean :tongue:

no PPG gears? :o I'm looking for someone who has their helical cut gears to test drive. If/when i need to upgrade the tranny, that's what I want to put in.

[409industries]

ooo PPG gears sound so insane!

[UP2MTNS]

ooo PPG gears sound so insane!

the straight cut/dog box set up is sick....supposedly the helicical/syncro box set up is really strong but not nearly as noisy. I still want to test drive before I buy that mod. LOL :mrgreen:

[Not All There]

yea..when you shift you can loose alot of time, but it all dpends on the course. If its wide open with some good straights you need the extra speed in 2nd gear (talking considering my n/a subaru 1.8L) For the amount the engine creams in first, you are really not going to fast at all, but in second, if you can keep the rpms right up in its powerban your mint. But for most courses in New England for example, you will see me in first bouncing off the rev limiter in straights, you risk getting real loose once hitting second if you dont have enough power to break those tires free and dig into tacky dirt. Most of the time a car without a ton of grunt will tend to stay on the loose surface with just enough slippage to get squirly, but not dig and grip. So due to that reason you will see me in first and not waste any time shifting. Its just not worth the .4 seconds of 2nd gear time in my opinion. But all depends on the course and the car. Tight and small (1st) open with straights, really try and get in second to help save your times.

[BlueREX04]

After reading this I really need to change my trans fluid to something better... I have to match the syncros at a red light in order to get in.. I was told that its the driver and not the trans with the problem.. I just laughed. For AutoX I shift into 2nd and leave it there for the rest of the track. same with SnowX in the local parking lots.

[UP2MTNS]

http://www.specialstage.com/forums/showthread.php?p=222661#post222661

Page 5, 'Ferdinand's post. Best tranny/shifting post EVER.

[UndercoverObbie]

omg. Thank you so much for posting that link, UP2MTNS. I spent about half an hour yesterday in an empty parking lot trying to learn how to shift, and that illustrated exactly what I didn't understand. THANK YOU!!

[UP2MTNS]

[quote="UndercoverObbie"]omg. Thank you so much for posting that link, UP2MTNS. I spent about half an hour yesterday in an empty parking lot trying to learn how to shift, and that illustrated exactly what I didn't understand. THANK YOU!![/quote

you're welcome. Just doin' what I can....in Southwestern Indiana :waving:

[Rallycat66]

Bleh - that's not how it's supposed to be done :wink: Check out the footwork in this clip.

http://www.rocketrally.com/patrickrichard.com/videos/pat_baie2004_incar.mov

don't try that at home boy's and girls - dog box required :lol:

[409industries]

don't try that at home boy's and girls - dog box required :lol:

So naturally this leads to everyone's next question(s):

What is a dog box? A dog box is the term for a transmission utilizing a dog engagement. A dog box can have either helical or spur gears or both.

What is a half dog box? A half dog box utilizes a combination of synchro and dog engagement. It depends on the manufacturer and customer preferences. Generally speaking, the first and second gears are dog engagement and the rest of the gears are synchro engagement. A half dog box can have either helical or spur gears or both.

What is dog engagement? Dogs are basically no more than cogs on a slider. The shifter pushes them into a receiver ring which engages the gear it is attached to. There is a separate dog and receiver for each gear in the transmission. On a racing transmission, there is a lot of "slop" (the gaps in the receiver are a lot larger than the teeth on the dog), which makes it easier to move into and out of the gears at higher RPMs without fully engaging the clutch.

Can a dog box be driven on the street? Though generally reserved for race applications, many users drive dog boxes on their daily driven vehicles. To do so, you need to learn proper shifting techniques and rev matching skills to decrease wear on the dog gears. The Shifting FAQ, this article, local personnel, or your transmission professional should be able to provide assistance with proper shifting techniques. This is one decision that should not be made lightly. If there is the slightest doubt in your mind as to your technique or attitude towards a daily driven dog box, you should opt for a synchro engagement transmission. Another thing to keep in mind is that a dog box is definitely not an option for a vehicle that sees occasional use by others such as your spouse, friends, visitors, valet, etc.

Source: Unabomber's Transmission FAQ (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=665334)

[I Like It Sideways]

that was some impressive foot work.. I'm awe struck

[UP2MTNS]

http://www.landefabrication.com/sess/utn;jsessionid=1546d5f98c51b9a/shopdata/0030_Rally+Proven/0020_Drivetrain/images/straight_cut_helical_461x346.jpg

only $4000........



EDIT: why won't the picture show up? well, here's the link:

http://landefabrication.com/sess/utn;jsessionid=1546d5f98c51b9a/shopdata/0030_Rally+Proven/0020_Drivetrain/product_details.shopscript?article=0050_PPG%2BGear Set%2BSubaru%2BWRX%2BStraight%2BCut%2B1-2%2BHelical%2B3-4%2B%3D28LE-PPG%3D29

[Azewaldo]

I find that Unabomber's FAQs are just about the only reason for visiting NASIOC. (that, and getting member discounts from the vendors)

Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion

[RALLYxISH728]

Its threads like this that help me enjoy dirtyimpreza.com more and more. I think I need a dirty impreza decal for my whip! Awesome info in regards to shifting!

[russellshireman]

So naturally this leads to everyone's next question(s):

What is a dog box? A dog box is the term for a transmission utilizing a dog engagement. A dog box can have either helical or spur gears or both.

What is a half dog box? A half dog box utilizes a combination of synchro and dog engagement. It depends on the manufacturer and customer preferences. Generally speaking, the first and second gears are dog engagement and the rest of the gears are synchro engagement. A half dog box can have either helical or spur gears or both.

What is dog engagement? Dogs are basically no more than cogs on a slider. The shifter pushes them into a receiver ring which engages the gear it is attached to. There is a separate dog and receiver for each gear in the transmission. On a racing transmission, there is a lot of "slop" (the gaps in the receiver are a lot larger than the teeth on the dog), which makes it easier to move into and out of the gears at higher RPMs without fully engaging the clutch.

Can a dog box be driven on the street? Though generally reserved for race applications, many users drive dog boxes on their daily driven vehicles. To do so, you need to learn proper shifting techniques and rev matching skills to decrease wear on the dog gears. The Shifting FAQ, this article, local personnel, or your transmission professional should be able to provide assistance with proper shifting techniques. This is one decision that should not be made lightly. If there is the slightest doubt in your mind as to your technique or attitude towards a daily driven dog box, you should opt for a synchro engagement transmission. Another thing to keep in mind is that a dog box is definitely not an option for a vehicle that sees occasional use by others such as your spouse, friends, visitors, valet, etc.

Source: Unabomber's Transmission FAQ (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=665334)


so you're saying a dog-box is a lot like a commercial truck transmission then?