Front/Rear AWD ratio on STi and WRX?

[bp_968]

(warning: Noob question)

I'm looking at picking up a used WRX or STi (haven't decided yet) and one of the factors I'm looking into is how the each of the vehicles handle (tends to oversteer or tends to understeer). I previously owned a (porsche) 1986 944 Turbo and a 1992 968 and both of those cars were very well balanced and very controllable power on oversteer was only a foot tap away. Contrast that with the econobox I drive now that plows whenever given the chance.

I know the STi has DCCD which sounds like it could be used to make the car rear happy even if its normally not like that. I've driven a 04 Sti and a 02 WRX (a few years ago) and thought they were both nice (though the WRX had a nicer ride, and the STi way more grunt, obviously). But my experience with them stops there.

I've been digging around and trying to do my research on the various year models pros/cons but other then the 07 Sti stories it looks like they are all solid cars. So that leaves me with option 1> 02-04 WRX paid for with cash, 2> 06-07 WRX with a loan (I love the 06-07 body style), or 3> 05-06 Sti with a *bigger* loan. lol.

I'm also tempted by the older/cheaper model because I figure I'd be less concerned while rallycrossing it ;)

Thanks!

Ben

[Galen]

imo, if you get a loan, get the STi. Thats just because im a fan of the 04 though, so paying in cash for the 04 WRX would be super badass too. im just sorta scared of loans, so if i ever took one out it would be for a more powerful car, not just the body style (i do like the 07 though).

[Draco-REX]

Subies push from the factory. Cuts down on lawsuits.

However, it doesn't take too much to get them to turn. 1st step is to get a bigger sway bar for the rear. I recommend the WhiteLine 24mm adjustable on the soft setting with aftermarket endlinks.

From there, it's just a matter of where you want to go with the car.

[Galen]

it doesn't take too much to get them to turn.

lock down bolts. nuff said.

cost: $35

[LPXLTT]

I drive a 2003 WRX and I love the thing. However, I have had transmission issues with it and the syncro gears are known to be not that great. I would honestly consider going with either an STI or an older WRX paying cash and then just mod. I was reading when I was getting the work done on strait cut "dog boxes" I have never personally used one but from what heard, they are amazing.

Just my thoughts and maybe others can support either way or correct me. But most people would tell you to go STI.

[lorenkb]

It depends first and foremost on the driver. I can get my stock 07 WRX (stock alignment as well) to rotate on command with the right combination of steering, throttle (lift), and left foot braking. I can also get it to plow around the corner understeering the whole way if I'm not paying attention.

If you can afford an STi, do it. The gearing is better for rallyx, the DCCD shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as the WRX's center diff, and the front diff on the WRX is open. Don't buy the STi thinking it will automatically handle better though, as you will get your ass handed to you by some guy in an RS that learned to drive the hard way ;)

[Allwheelsdriven.net]

I
If you can afford an STi, do it. The gearing is better for rallyx, the DCCD shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as the WRX's center diff, and the front diff on the WRX is open. Don't buy the STi thinking it will automatically handle better though, as you will get your ass handed to you by some guy in an RS that learned to drive the hard way ;)

Or even worse, in a 1.8L wagon..:lol:

If you can, get an STi. Way more car to start with on all levels. If you look hard enough, you can find a nice '06 in the 19-20k range. Next best would be an '06-07 WRX.

Barrett-
www.allwheelsdriven.net (http://www.allwheelsdriven.net)

[wr-ecks]

traded my 04 wrx for an 05 sti. no regrets. every single thing about the sti is better imo. (except trunk space, the 04 was a wagon, freakin thing would fit a smallblock chevy motor without folding down the backseat)

[pigpen]

the STi has less factory understeer than other subies. the center diff is very different, with all non-STi's being front-biased, and the STi being rear-biased. but on loose stuff, any subie (MT only?) will go to 50/50. the DCCD will let you lock it there.

yes, you can change the handling characteristics with suspension changes, but i prefer how the STi drivetrain is more neutral handling, requiring less suspension compensation.

05+ STi's are also preferable over other subies for motorsport b/c of the wheel bearings. the larger hub keeps them a bit cooler if all other factors were equal, and they bolt in and out, so you don't have to get them pressed...this means you can make trackside bearing repairs if you're good.

the 6MT is supposed to be much more bulletproof than the 5MT.

I'm also tempted by the older/cheaper model because I figure I'd be less concerned while rallycrossing it ;)

only you can decide what you're comfortable rallycrossing.

[Allwheelsdriven.net]

the STi has less factory understeer than other subies. the center diff is very different, with all non-STi's being front-biased, and the STi being rear-biased. but on loose stuff, any subie (MT only?) will go to 50/50. the DCCD will let you lock it there.

yes, you can change the handling characteristics with suspension changes, but i prefer how the STi drivetrain is more neutral handling, requiring less suspension compensation.

05+ STi's are also preferable over other subies for motorsport b/c of the wheel bearings. the larger hub keeps them a bit cooler if all other factors were equal, and they bolt in and out, so you don't have to get them pressed...this means you can make trackside bearing repairs if you're good.

the 6MT is supposed to be much more bulletproof than the 5MT.

only you can decide what you're comfortable rallycrossing.

What you said of the center diff is true on autos, not manuals. The AT trannys have a clutch type center diff that is front biased until you start to spin the fronts, then more power is transferred to the rears based on the clutch slippage. All of the 5 speed manuals have a 50/50 split until slippage occurs, they are a viscous center diff. The 6 speed US STi transmission (and some JDM STi 5 spds) runs 35f/65r in default (no DCCD hooked up), and is totally locked in "lock" mode w/ a 50/50 split. The JDM/EDM non DCCD 6 speed runs a 50/50 split.

The 6 speed is a far stronger tranny than the 5 speed, with up to 600whp capablity. The 5 speeds have issues with 300+whp.

Barrett-
www.allwheelsdriven.net (http://www.allwheelsdriven.net)

[rollo]

It depends first and foremost on the driver.

He speaks the truth. I'm doubtful that any AWD car is gonna have quite the 'kick out the tail-ability' of a 944 Turbo or a 968 (and damn, FINE choice in cars there, very tasty). The thing with AWD - IMO - is that you have to use weight transfer to start the thing sliding. Power alone is not enough. You can use the power to keep it sliding though :D

e.g. lift-off oversteer into power-on oversteer, and remember that in an oversteer situation the front wheels are pulling you straight too. It's actually pretty awesome, but you have to be going pretty fast to get anything too lurid going on asphalt. On dirt.. well obviously the limits are much lower.

I can get my stock 07 WRX (stock alignment as well) to rotate on command with the right combination of steering, throttle (lift), and left foot braking. I can also get it to plow around the corner understeering the whole way if I'm not paying attention.

If you can afford an STi, do it. The gearing is better for rallyx, the DCCD shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as the WRX's center diff, and the front diff on the WRX is open. Don't buy the STi thinking it will automatically handle better though, as you will get your ass handed to you by some guy in an RS that learned to drive the hard way ;)

IMO viscous centre diffs are underrated - they're easy to drive once you understand the characteristics, and really not all that much worse in most situations than an electronic system. Heck of a lot simpler too.

It is a lot easier to justify rallyxing something you aren't still paying for, and it's even better if you have money left over to do some appropriate mods. The extra grunt is (a lot of) fun but doesn't help much on the dirt.

OTOH a quick steering ratio I think is killer for rallyx, and I know the STI has a quicker rack than the WRX. But then again you could put a quicker rack (from DI-sponsor L&E Fabrications perhaps! :D ) with the money saved on the WRX.

(btw I guess I started this reply yesterday and just found it again in my tabs(?!) so if I repeated points.. errr. sorry :) Anyway, listen to Barrett).

[bp_968]

figured you technical forum guys might want to see what I bought:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3158/2740389680_fa70b675f8_b.jpg

Decided on a 2006 WRX STi. I'm ecstatic that I picked the STi and spent the little bit extra. Amazing car!

[Rally OBXT]

Sweet car doooood!

[pigpen]

nice...i can't wait to see the rallyX photos!

[Allwheelsdriven.net]

Sweet ride! Have fun with it..:)

Barrett-
www.allwheelsdriven.net

[bp_968]

nice...i can't wait to see the rallyX photos!

Where in the world do you find rally tires for these things? all the rally tires I see are 14-15" rims and those won't clear the brakes on the STi!! LOL

Suggestions on cheap rim / tire combos for some fun winter/snow tires?

[rollo]

Where in the world do you find rally tires for these things? all the rally tires I see are 14-15" rims and those won't clear the brakes on the STi!! LOL

Short answer: you don't. 17" gravel tyres are like hen's teeth.

To run rally wheels, you'd need a brake swap. Jackson Rally offers
a kit that allows the 2006 STI to run 15" rally wheels. (http://www.dirtyimpreza.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4118)

Suggestions on cheap rim / tire combos for some fun winter/snow tires?

These look awesome...
General Altimax Arctic (http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=General&tireModel=Altimax+Arctic&vehicleSearch=true&partnum=245QR7AMAXA&fromCompare1=yes&place=21&speed_rating=V&speed_rating=Z&speed_rating=W&speed_rating=Y&speed_rating=%28Y%29&minSpeedRating=V)

Car looks sweet, awesome stuff. Get some mudflaps on that thing! :D

[nordicskiah]

it's not dirty!

but still sick car man

[bp_968]

it's not dirty!

but still sick car man


It will be. I forgot how hard black is to keep clean! lol

[WRXCMM]

that is a btchn' car man...congrats...time for skids, flaps and ready to go.

[I Like It Sideways]

Gorgeous STi. I'm jealous. Very jealous.

FWIW, the WRX has a final ratio in the rear of 3.90 and 3.54 in the front, with a 1.1:1 ratio in the center diff. Odd. Just found that out.

[bp_968]

that is a btchn' car man...congrats...time for skids, flaps and ready to go.

Which to go with though? Classic, Urethane? I'm so confused! <LOL>

[rollo]

Classic. The UR ones are too shiny. IMO.

Or roll your own from the flap material you can get online or I daresay at your local bendy plastics supplier.

Or make them from IKEA cutting boards :lol:

[pigpen]

Classic. The UR ones are too shiny. IMO.

took less than a week for mine not to be shiny any more. of course, i haven't tried washing my car since i installed them to see if they become shiny again...:mrgreen:

i went with the URs after reading a lot about some mudflaps stiffening up and becoming rigid. these are supposed to stay "floppy" although that is a stretch. they stay pliable, but mine certainly don't hang down under their own weight.that said, they don't really have much of a curl (not that old yet though), which is apparently a problem on flaps as they age, so they won't block as much of the loose stuff flying off your tires.

if i had to do it again, i'd probably go cheaper...

[wr-ecks]

i run hakkapalita's on my 17's. they work great for just rallyX. i have however sidewalled 3 now pretending to be a stage rally driver. i bought 8 total and figured if by the time i run out of tires i still like this rally thing ill convert my brakes.

edit:oh yea awesome car!!!

[rollo]

took less than a week for mine not to be shiny any more. of course, i haven't tried washing my car since i installed them to see if they become shiny again...:mrgreen:

i went with the URs after reading a lot about some mudflaps stiffening up and becoming rigid. these are supposed to stay "floppy" although that is a stretch. they stay pliable, but mine certainly don't hang down under their own weight.that said, they don't really have much of a curl (not that old yet though), which is apparently a problem on flaps as they age, so they won't block as much of the loose stuff flying off your tires.

if i had to do it again, i'd probably go cheaper...

FWIW my "original" RA flaps still hang down straight and they've been on for two and a half years (I think.. a long time anyway). And I have scraped them a lot going into my driveway.