The Cost of Stage Rally

[Rally OBXT]

I figured that we should start a thread about this because entering stage rally is something a lot of people here would like to do. I also figured that it would be nice to have a cost breakdown of what it takes to get there.

**please feel free to correct me if I have left something out or my cost is off. I will edit this post to include updated info**


First and foremost you have to have a car. There two schools of thought, you either buy a used one or build your own.


Used car route

Used rally car that is ready to drive on the stages......$6,000 - $35,000 or more if you want a really kick ass open class car.

Here is a good example of a PGT car for $14,000
http://www.specialstage.com/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=942&cat=13 (http://www.specialstage.com/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=942&cat=13)

Here is a good example of a open class car for $35,000
http://www.specialstage.com/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=771&cat=13 (http://www.specialstage.com/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=771&cat=13)


Building your own car route

*The first dollar figure is buying used or bargain basement cheap. Nothing new will cost that little. The second figure reflects new and or premium gear. I am going to assume no one is buying a new car off the lot to turn into a stage rally car, if you do it's just that much more $$$

Used 2.5RS, WRX, STI or whatever AWD car..........$3,000 - $20,000

FIA approved cage...........................................$3, 000 - $8,000

FIA approved seats (driver and Co-driver)..............$750 - $3,000

Rally computer.......................................... ........$250 - $1,500

Rally Spec coilovers......................................... ..$2,500 - $6,000

Fire control system...........................................$ 500 - $2,000

Wheels and tires............................................. ..$500 - $2,000


Total cost of building a car.................................$13,500 - $41,500


Personal Safety Items

Hans device…………………………………………………………..$500 - $1,500

Helmet……………………………………………………………………$300 - $1500

Race suit, gloves and shoes………………………………… $300 - $2000



OK, so now you have just spent a boat load of money on a car and all the gear to get you to the stages. If you went the cheapest rout possible, you bought a used rally car for $6000 and safety equipment for $900 for a total of $6900. If you went the baller route on the other hand you just spent $46,500 on a used STI and built it up to hit the stages with all the finest gear.

But wait, how do you get your nice new (or used) rally car out to the stages? Well get ready to pony up more cash for a tow vehicle and flatbed dolly.

Well, you gotta figure that your rally car weighs around 2600 - 3000 lbs with the cage, safety gear, spare tires, tools and whatever else inside. You also have to count on another 1000 lbs for the flatbed transport dolly. So you need to buy a truck that can tow at least 4000lbs.

New Tow Vehicle…………………………………………………..$20,000 - $45,000

Used Tow Vehicle…………………………………………………..$6,000 - $20,000

Flatbed tow trailer…………………………………………………….$1,000 - $3,000


So now you have just spent at the MINIMUM of about $14,000 to hit the stages. We are talking about beg, borrow and steal here. Sponsors hooking you up big time, used gear that you bought dirt cheap, free rally tires you grabbed from the dumpster of some rally school. You get my drift yeah?

If your last name is Hilton or you won the lotto, you just spent upwards of $100,000 to do the same thing.

Great, so you are now ready to go compete in the next stage rally event!!

Entry fee for a stage rally……………………………………….$600 - $1500
(This of course changes with each rally)

Let’s just assume the rally you are going to is semi-local. You just have to gas up your rally car and tow vehicle. That’s a quick $150 just to get to and compete in the event.

So to hit your first stage rally it will cost about $ 15,650 - $100,000.

Let’s be honest here for a moment though, the $15,00 number is VERY low and the $100,000 is VERY high. It will probably cost you somewhere between $20,000 and $50,000 to start your first stage rally. Ouch.

I think I will be competing in Rally-X for quite some time!! :oops:

[Rally OBXT]

**Spot reserved to calculate the cost of competing for a whole year once you have your rally car**

[JacksonRally]

You pretty much got it. That is an excellent breakdown. You don't want to know what Keith is putting into his car...no where near your low calculations...

[munozppk]

Damn! I need to start hustlin'.

[subyspawn]

Dave, you are pretty much spot on.

I think we all agree that the jump from RallyX to Stage is no easy one, thats why we need to venture onto things like R4 to help scratch the itch.

[I Like It Sideways]

Excellent compilation. Very comprehensive. Nice work.

[strat]

i agree that that is a pretty comprehensive list.

that being said, it seems that some areas could be taken car of for less money.

i'm not up to speed on all the RA rules and such but it seems to me you could run on steel wheels with rally take-offs (just paid a whopping $100 for steelies with pirelli soft compounds) for less money (unless your $500 is including spares...

also, for the flatbed trailer, i could be wrong but worst case scenario for at least your first event, you could probably rent a u-haul or other suitable trailer (possibly even tow vehicle) to get to the event (again, this would only be cost effective for an event or two but would be less than paying for a tow vehicle and trailer out right)

and correct me if i'm wrong but without certain stipulations, don't you have to start in a 2wd vehicle as a first-time rallier?

2wd also seems like it would be less expensive in some aspects as well to get INTO stage plus would make you learn to really drive the car (awd is very forgiving in many cases)

just my .02...

[409industries]

Dood, you're insane to think you can run steelies on stage, sure it may last for a bit, but its not if, its when its going to bend / fail. You need a dedicated gravel wheel.

[lminette]

I agree with you Aaron!! I've already gone through two steelies!! (Actually John bent one at ridgecrest and I think I bent another at R4!) But you can start out with stock 15" alloys for Outbacks and Foresters!! This is what the Rally Innovations team has used for a bit. They only recently upgraded to some TD's!

[I Like It Sideways]

The cost of the entry fee is dependent on if it's a regional or national level rally. Most national level rallys have regional level rallys alongside it (each individual day would be an individual regional rally, whereas the national level combines both days into one rally).

The cost is also dependent on how many coefficients the rally is.

A few extra things to add:

Costs once you're there

-The jemba notes usually cost some money, I think $100-$150. The tulips, however, are free and provided.
-The practice stage might cost some money as well. $50ish.
-Cost of recce : $100ish

Tow vehicle

Also, along with your tow vehicle, you need tools and spare parts. Gotta fix it during service!
Some people have a parts car that they simply take as many parts with them as they can to each rally.

Shelter

Also figure in hotel accomodations and food. $50-$200/night, 3-4 nights = $150-$800
Food, it's all up to the team.

Sharing the costs

A good alternative. Some drivers will split the entry fee with their co-driver. Each driver does it differently. Some cover all costs, some ask the co-driver to chip in for hotel and food. It all depends. Some pay for their crew (food and shelter), and some have crew pay their own way.

[Rally OBXT]

Right, you gotta figure a weekend of stage rally is going to cost you $2,000-$3,000 by the time you pay all your entry fees, gas drive to the event / gas competing in the event / gas driving home, staying in a hotel, food + drinks and whetever else.

Then you figure you are going to compete in 4-6 events a year if you want to win a championship in your class.

It aint cheap.

[Jard]

Right, you gotta figure a weekend of stage rally is going to cost you $2,000-$3,000 by the time you pay all your entry fees, gas drive to the event / gas competing in the event / gas driving home, staying in a hotel, food + drinks and whetever else.

Then you figure you are going to compete in 4-6 events a year if you want to win a championship in your class.

It aint cheap.
What do they say...

"Take whatever budget you figure out and then double it. If you can afford that, then you can enter the rally."

:lol:

I'm probably selling my WRX at the end of this rallycross season in a hope to actually make the stage rally jump. I plan to pick up a 93-97 Impreaza L or LX for less than $4K that I can daily drive and rally-x for a while until I save up the cash to actually prep it.

[I Like It Sideways]

"Don't race it if you can't replace it"

Another good one to live by.

[UP2MTNS]

I agree that you can rally quite cheaply......being this is a Subaru and mostly AWD forum, our price to rally is going to be much higher than average.

I've seen several 2wd cars of varying class/speed/etc that are rally ready-to-go in the $6K range.

Tires/entry fees/gas/spare parts/etc are all variable costs that depend on how much you rally (rally more, expenses go up....rally less, expenses go down). Don't worry about 'winning' or even 'being competitive' in ANY series. If you're worried about costs, you can't afford to run in a series....just run what you can, when you can, and have fun doing it.

your geography has a bit to do with it as well. NorCal competitors will have higher travel costs than SoCal competitors (in the CRS series at least). Denver, CO competitors have a really nice series going on....quite a few events, less restrictions, all local.

With careful planning I'd say you can get going in a cheap but fully built car AND run a few events for ~$10K.


Part of my strategy to compete over the next few years and reduce my travel costs is to find a friendly place in a given region to reduce hauling costs, etc.

Get creative, use the rally community for help, find deals....share equipment, etc.

[strat]

i'm pretty sure there were a few cars running steelies at stpr... but i could be mistaken.

don't you also have costs for licensing to run?

[I Like It Sideways]

There is a fee to become a licensed driver and co-driver and the prices vary for regional vs national I believe.

[Bananarama]

I think this quote applies here: "If you want to become a millionare by racing, start with 2 million."

[UP2MTNS]

i'm pretty sure there were a few cars running steelies at stpr... but i could be mistaken.

don't you also have costs for licensing to run?

marciniak's run steelies I think....or at least they did last year.

license fees are pretty small compared to overall costs.

My NASA membership + license was $80 iirc.

[I Like It Sideways]

FWIW my RA regional co-driving license was $116

[westy2005]

Spot on with everything said....
Dont forget about the Rental option too, guys. It is a good way to get a taste of whats going on, and while it might seem like alot, to walk away at the end of it and have spent $2500 on the car/crew/lodging I think its a good way to know if you want to do the stage events or not.

As for running steelies, its do-able on the regional level because from what I have seen the regional guys live on the theory of "In order to finish first, First you must finish." Also FWIW you can start in an AWD car, just the organizers have to give you a waiver to run it...more than likely you would be looking at a fat underpowered N/A car (heavy and slow)

I am in the process of making this jump as we speak, and in doing so, you will be seeing me hit some rallyX's in a FWD car (think 2wd subie, GTi, Omni-if only i could find one) to better learn its characteristics. I will also be hitting as many regionals as i can, including some canadian events.

+1 with this thread!

[Jard]

Spot on with everything said....
Dont forget about the Rental option too, guys. It is a good way to get a taste of whats going on, and while it might seem like alot, to walk away at the end of it and have spent $2500 on the car/crew/lodging I think its a good way to know if you want to do the stage events or not.

Another of my plans for next year is to try and do a Team O'Neil class and focus on making contacts so I can rent a car and get out there on stage at least once in '09.

I'm not in a bad spot geographically since Rally WV, Rally TN, Rally NY, Sandblast, and STPR are all within about an 8 hour drive. NEFR is probably closer to 11-12 hours.

[Allwheelsdriven.net]

Used rally car that is ready to drive on the stages......$6,000 - $35,000 or more if you want a really kick ass open class car.
-Here is a good example of a PGT car for $14,000
-Here is a good example of a open class car for $35,000

Building your own car route

*The first dollar figure is buying used or bargain basement cheap. Nothing new will cost that little. The second figure reflects new and or premium gear.

Used 2.5RS, WRX, STI or whatever AWD car..........$5,000 - $20,000

(I am going to assume no one is buying a new car off the lot to turn into a stage rally car, if you do it's just that much more $$$)

FIA approved cage...........................................$4, 000 - $8,000

FIA approved seats...........................................$1 ,000 - $2,000

Rally computer.......................................... ........$500 - $1,500

Rally Spec coilovers......................................... ..$2,000 - $6,000

Fire suppressant system....................................$500 - $2,000

Wheels and tires............................................. ..$500 - $2,000


Total cost of building a car.................................$13,500 - $41,500


Personal Safety Items

Hans device…………………………………………………………..$500 - $1,500

Helmet……………………………………………………………………$300 - $1500

Race suit, gloves and shoes………………………………… $300 - $2000



OK, so now you have just spent a boat load of money on a car and all the gear to get you to the stages. If you went the cheapest rout possible, you bought a used rally car for $6000 and safety equipment for $900 for a total of $6900. If you went the baller route on the other hand you just spent $46,500 on a used STI and built it up to hit the stages with all the finest gear.

But wait, how do you get your nice new (or used) rally car out to the stages? Well get ready to pony up more cash for a tow vehicle and flatbed dolly.

Well, you gotta figure that your rally car weighs around 2600 - 3000 lbs with the cage, safety gear, spare tires, tools and whatever else inside. You also have to count on another 1000 lbs for the flatbed transport dolly. So you need to buy a truck that can tow at least 4000lbs.

New Tow Vehicle…………………………………………………..$20,000 - $45,000

Used Tow Vehicle…………………………………………………..$6,000 - $20,000

Flatbed tow dolly…………………………………………………….$1,000 - $3,000


So now you have just spent at the MINIMUM $13,900 to hit the stages. We are talking about beg, borrow and steal here. Sponsors hooking you up big time, used gear that you bought dirt cheap, free rally tires you grabbed from the dumpster of some rally school. You get my drift yeah?

If your last name is Hilton or you won the lotto, you just spent upwards of $100,000 to do the same thing.

Great, so you are now ready to go compete in the next stage rally event!!

Entry fee for a stage rally……………………………………….$600 - $1500
(This of course changes with each rally)

Let’s just assume the rally you are going to is semi-local. You just have to gas up your rally car and tow vehicle. That’s a quick $150 just to get to and compete in the event.

So to hit your first stage rally it will cost $ 14,650 - $100,000.

Let’s be honest here for a moment though, the $14,650 number is VERY low and the $100,000 is VERY high. It will probably cost you somewhere between $20,000 and $50,000 to start your first stage rally. Ouch.


I think I will be competing in Rally-X for quite some time!!

First off,
Very good thread. :D These are the types of costs, and answers that people that are seriously considering stage rally need to factor in before getting a second mortgage on their house, or maxxing out their Visa card.

The costs are in the general ballpark, but starter cars can be had for less, and the truly kick ass, soup-to-nuts Open class cars are more in the $100k+ range. So throw that 100k budget out the window if you start with a car like that (not many do).. That's also why you need to start in a 2wd or NA 4wd car as a new driver. A few other things..Rally computers (terratrip is +-300), intercom (+-200), fire extinguishers (x2 +-30 ea), cage ($3k+), wheels/tires used ($2-400 set), R3/Hans ($695+), Helmet (+-200), Suit ($250+), and...Spares. depends on what you get for what car. Tranny for a 2.2 L +-$500, tranny for an STi+-$4k. You get the point.

So what should you do? Start in a car that's cheap ($1-2k running, less if you're a good shopper), easy to find parts for, and that you are totally cool with wadding on the first turn, on the first stage, after spending countless hours and thousands of $s on. It happens even to guys like Marcus Gronholm.. Also, don't worry if it's 2wd or AWD. How many of you have really pitched a rwd or fwd in the gravel? Helluva fun time, very sideways.. Many of the best rally drivers started in 2wd cars like VWs, Nissans, Toyotas, Focus, etc. This helps you focus on your driving skill. You need to pedal the crap out of a 100chp car to keep your momentum up in the turns. Watch the results in rally cross, a well driven VW (or 1.8 Impreza) can put a hurt on an STi on the right course. You can have properly prepped 2wd car (or Leggy, early GC) in the $10k-12k range. You can also have a clapped out, beat down, multi colored, reshelled something-or-another "used rally car" for $4-6k. What suits your needs better? How much is it going to cost to reprep the car (it will need something)? How much mechanical skill and extra time do you have? Which brings us to our next option..

Building your own car. :mrgreen:
Now this option is definately not for everyone. That's not hating, that's just the truth. Some people have mechanical skill or can learn how to wrench, fabricate or whatever else, others don't have a prayer. I was working on cars (mostly Subies)for at least 10 years before I built my first stage rally car. If you know you can't wrench, don't try become a mastertech on your first rally car build..Buy a car that's built and sorted, or pay someone reputable (not trade a 24 pack to weld the cage) to do the prep that's out of your skill level. Absolutely DON'T learn how to weld on your first cage. If the welds look like bird poo and you roll, well, you and your co-d can get seriously injured, or die. Very simple. The safety gear isn't something to take lightly. Also, if things aren't tightened and torqued properly, and the car shaken down/rechecked, the car will come apart on stage. I've seen it many times.. Guys push for weeks straight to get ready for an event, getting little sleep, not eating much, too many energy drinks, etc, and something doesn't get tightened.. If you're lucky, you might have interior falling apart, if not ,no brakes or a wheel falls off on stage. We did it all the hard way, and have learned lots in the time we've been building street and rally cars. If you build the car yourself, you'll know every nut, bolt, washer, spacer, fitting, etc. You'll know how things go together and come apart, and what you can/can't fix in a 20 minute service. Control arm/axle yes, tranny, if you are SRTUSA, Rockstar, or CPD and have a 6 man crew that has practiced. It's a very impressive thing to watch a 6 speed swapped in a 20 minute service..You will also have more respect for your car on the stage. Not many guys want to wad up a car they spent months or years building. I'm one of the guys that knows it's just an inevitibility of rally. If you don't put it off once in a while you're not pushing hard enough.. That said, I have a parts room full of spares.;)

As far as per event cost goes, $1500 per weekend (on the low end) is a club event that's within 4-6 hours of home. That's using 1 set of tires for the weekend, and having a spare set for different conditions (mud, snow, etc). That # is a bit more than an RA Nat'l entry fee, so tack on another $1k+ to that. That's also if you don't stuff the car, crap the tranny on the service truck or get a flat on the trailer.. I've all of those happen in one weekend. Sometimes the rally gods are frowning on you, and other times you're spraying beer on the podium. That's the dynamic of the sport. It keeps us coming back for more punishment and more sideways action.

It's important to try and establish a budget for a car and at least a couple of events a season. If you can't do that, than rally x or rent a car. Get as much seat time as possible and hone your skills. Learn how to drive a slow car fast, then build a turbo 4wd..No BS. The last PGT car we built (95 Impreza 2.2L) placed 7th OA, 3rd PGT out of 30+ cars at OT regional. The guy is a great driver, that was his first event.. At the last rally cross a bunch of STis, WRXs, OBs, DSMs, and GTXs got it handed to them in a 1.8 Impreza wagon with a _semi_ skilled (maybe a bit more) rally driver at the wheel..:lol: The David and Goliath story is very true in this sport. Most of us won't win on checkbook racing alone, so better to learn how to drive _whatever car_ 100%..:)

Rally On!
Barrett-
www.allwheelsdriven.net

[odi]

You can run rallies on a low budget. It's not that big of a deal, just driving dirt roads fast.

And yeah you could be competitive in a cheap car. I love my Subaru, but I love racing my fwd and giving the awd's a run for their money.

My co and I got started for about eight, car and trailer included. I borrow my dad's diesel for a tow vehicle and bribe friends with beer and a good time for crew, thats how I roll.

You can rally cheap. Good deals come around and there are bare minimums you can get by with.

[Rally OBXT]

Yes you can hit the stages for "cheap", but it's always going to cost a fair bit of cash one way or the other.

I am glad you and others who have accually run in stage's are giving their imput, my first post was mostly guess work.

So how much is that new motor and tranny gonna cost BTW?

[odi]

Ouch, a Jap import motor is $600, trans is $400. But we have an extra trans and we wanna build up the motor instead of just throwing a replacement in.

After evaluating the situation I realized it was my fault the car blew up. But hey, its racing.

I just want to see more new guys and gals race stage rally. It is very possible if you do not intend on traveling to every event, and running a very expensive car. Heck some of you pay more for your STI a month that I spend on the rally car per month on average (but STI's are way cool).

[albascoob]

Something only Barrett touched on until now has been all these costs assume you don't break the car!
We took the build it route and I wouldn't have it any other way but we created a realistic budget for the first year that included 3-4 rallies. Keep in mind this is a stock class car we're talking about! Let me tell you, when you build your own car, no matter whether the doner cost $1000 or $35,000, set aside a pot of cash for stuff you didn't think of. I'm not talking $50-100, I'm talking $1000+. Create a spreadsheet with parts, sources and costs to help you. Build it strong and build it to be reliable. Most people don't realise the abuse that a rally car goes through. When your minute rolls around at the stage start you nail the throttle and give little care to the car's well being, trust me!
So imagine paying for a weekend's rally and get through 5 stage miles and the car breaks and you have no spares, you DNF. That would suck. By the way, the $1500 weekend budget is conservative. Our NASA regional events are 8-10hr tow so budget double that for a 2 day rally weekend. Entry with notes, truck gas, rally car gas, hotels, food etc etc etc. This doesnt include car consumables, brake discs/pads, tyres, oil and other fluids.
Anyway, set aside a spares and consumable budget. For a WRX, consider the following, gearbox, alternator, radiator, suspension arms, fender liners, bumper skins etc etc. Better still, buy a doner car from a yard as there are those who have rolled and those who will roll.
The more events you finish without breaking the car the cheaper it gets. Our first event in the WRX was the most expensive to date and we didn't break anything apart from a fender liner. I calculated approx. $400 a mile...remember, this is a STOCK CAR!!! Nothing fancy. I drive a used truck and trailer. Ok, there are those who could probably be able to do it cheaper but it'll always cost you more than you think.
Finally, save first, build later and pay for parts with cash where possible. You can get into serious CC debt in this sport. While I appreciate the group's enthusiasm, take care of the important stuff in life first like school, house payments etc. DON'T finance a car. Rallying will still be here in another 10 years! Heck it took me 17 years to be able to afford to do it and once you start, you won't want to stop. Ok, lecture over!
Someone mentioned sponsors...you could be lucky like us to have the support of an outfit like Team Illuminata Motorsport but without some consistant results most people won't give you squat.

This is a good thread and although there is no magic formula I hope this helps contribute to building a picture of the real cost of stage rally.

[WRR]

nice thread Dave & a few notes to add....

share equipment, etc.

like buy half a fully prepped SRT4 (hint... hint) PM me for info ;)


marciniak's run steelies

yes they do and Kris swears by them - something about 2 bent steelies going back into 'reasonable' shape with a few hits of a big hammer... vs. 2 shattered alum. wheels ending your day on the stage..

& yes, you WILL become a better driver in a fatt & underpowered N/A 2WD car!

local events are becoming scarce in the SoCal area so be prepared to travel a bit and travel = $$$$

[A1337STI]

What a great Thread. I recently completed my first full stage rally. North Nevada Rally
http://bensimpson.smugmug.com/gallery/5241418_Y4uYH#319998553_kJBvf (Green #9)
And i did it in a very very low budget ride.

I Started planing for the reno rally which was at first going to be RA. I already knew i wanted an impreza! Under the 07 Rally america rules to start in production class in an Impreza your adjusted displacement had to be less than 2549 i believe it was. 1.2X for 4 valve and 1.3X for awd, 1.8Liters X1.2 X1.3 =2.808L so i needed a FWD!

I still wanted to drive an Impreza so i went searching for a fwd one, which isn't that easy of a thing to do. Eventually i found a 1993 Impreza (GC 6? 7? i should probably go look , lol) 1.8L FWD! but it was in san fran (i live in tahoe) And it had a bad clutch.

I got a friend with a truck and car trailer to go down with me to get it. loaded it up and came back.
his truck died half way up and we had to call a different friend with a truck. :| eventually got it over to my Friends house who was letting me use his garage.

Oh I found out after buying the car the event would be a Nasa Event, so i could have started in an AWD Turbo car. Oh well, FWD , with no ABS is actually very fun to drive. (my other impreza is an 05 STI)



Well my rally car sat for about 3 or 4 months while i tried to find the right parts, and while doing a lot of needed part replacement. finding a FWD fly wheel was a big PITA ! it turned out that the pressure plate, clutch, fly wheel, and what not were all bad. I also ended up replacing the water pump, power steering fluid pump, main seal, cam seals, rear main seal, timing belt, timing cover gaskets, O2 sensor, spark plugs , Air filter (K&N Drop in) , new fluids, new drums, shoes, rotors ,pads and 575 high temp brake fluid.

The car cost me $680
all those parts probably ran me $1000 or more
I got 2 MoMo T-club seats for $600 new online! (FIA Approved!)
A very good friend of mine Ansel built my roll cage for me for $2000 (Hell of a steal, but i let him drive and rally cross the car also)

Rally odo $350
Needed saftey gear ran me $200
driving suit $400 (G-force with 13 seconds of 2nd degree burn protection, 10 second gloves and shoes)
$5200

I did end up buying seats that didn't work out for $300 that i'll probably recap at some point. and i bought a spare trany that i couldn't use and just got mine resealed for $500

$5700

with $800 in parts needing to sell / exchange.


First Event
6 Rally Tires $900
Entry fee $450
Gas + diesel = $250
Hotel $100
Food 4 crew $300

My navigator paid for 1 night of hotel and crew food costs for 1 day and paid 1/2 the second. , she also bought the notes.
so about $2000 at my first event.

I bent 1 steel rim :| but other than that my car is fine. I really do need to buy some real rally suspension though. i'm on the original 15 yo springs and replaced at least once struts of ??? brand, they leak in front and the tech told me they were blown in the rear.

so guess not that i've done 1 event i've spent $8500 :shock: :-( no wonder i still rent an apt. It has taken me about 10 months and its been spread out over that time. Luckily nothing broke at the rally and the car is ready to go for Event #2. I also spent quite a bit on beer and pizza for my friends as they helped me out along the whole process. I'm sure i put in at least 150 man hours, and i had at least 1 friend helping me almost every single hour i was working on the car.

Basically if you can afford to spend about $750 to $1000 per month, 7 full days, and 21 nights a month , have access to lots of tools. you could probably build your own rally car in about a year. I really wish i would have found a $2000 subaru with nothing wrong with it, versus the $700 "deal" :crazy:

But it worked out very well in the end for me!

[jr4jc]

randy zimmer has a book, doing rally on a budget.
and as many have said, there are MANY costs to rally that make it very expensive. The maintance items that have to be replaced after each event, tires, brake pads, and rotors every couple events, just to name a few. and spare parts you should have if you want to spend that much money and assure yourself finishing the event.
entry fee and paying for your crew.
SOmebody needs to get rallySPRINT off the ground, there is a market for it!!
jr

http://www.randyzimmer.com/

[Not All There]

great responses, keep them coming

[albascoob]

SOmebody needs to get rallySPRINT off the ground, there is a market for it!!


rally sprint?

How about 2 rally cars racing against eachother on a dirt/tarmac track super special style?

would that be ok?

(sorry to go off subject)

[rollo]

rally sprint?

How about 2 rally cars racing against eachother on a dirt/tarmac track super special style?

would that be ok?

(sorry to go off subject)

That is rallysprint, it's just rallysprint with two cars running concurrently.

What with recent events on this side of the country, I'm seeing a pattern here..... I agree there's a serious market for this...

[thewizard]

I did my first event for roughly 6500 which included everything.
Bought a car that was raced but needed updates for 2500
Seats, rally odo, rally comp, junkyard spares, factory spare rims, safety gear, entry fee (600), hotel, rented tow dolly etc all together cost me 6500. Got tires (6)for free from a friend and used em for 2 full rallys, 2 rallycrosses so far with another event coming up.
We are probably one of the lowest budget teams running a 16v VW GTI. It was initially cheap but then I started spending more money on things like diffs, final drives etc...

If you really want to, you can rally on a budget. These days the main expense is fuel. Last event we did (Sandblast 08) our fuel bill was almost 500 bucks! It was a 10-11 hr/each way tow.

[Tommy Gun Rally]

Here's a nugget to feast on while I prepare a bit longer reply. Cost us $7K to get to RIM in 07 (yes, the rallycross one) - and that was with a car that was already logbooked.

[Tommy Gun Rally]

(Sorry about the formatting, I did it in excel)


Rim of the World 07

Brand /Spec
Source/ Vendor
Cost

Car Basics


Car
Mitsubishi Galant
Tom Grossman
$ 850.00
Car smog
N/A
Eli Gilbert
$ 92.00
Car registration
CA DMV
CA DMV
$ 300.00
Car insurance
Wawanesa, CA
Wawanesa
$ -
Car paint
Summit White
Affordable Auto Body
$ 503.00


Rally Equipment


Computer
Terratrip 202
Adam Ullewig
$ -
Intercom
Terraphone
Adam Ullewig
$ 100.00
Rally tires
Kumho
Anton
$ 225.00
Wheel refinish
Duplicolor
AutoZone
$ 30.00
Spare tire
TBD
Mustafa
$ -
Seat - driver
Racetech RT1000
Rush Motorsports
$ 590.00
Seat - CoDriver
Racetech RT1000
Rush Motorsports
$ 590.00
Seat Rails
Racetech
Rush Motorsports
$ 180.00
First Aid kit
N/A
Walmart
$ 20.00
Rubber grommets or tape
DuctTape
Home Depot
$ 5.00
Cage
Custom
N/A
$ -
Wheels
Enkei
N/A
$ -
Belt cutter
N/A
N/A
$ -
Skidplate
Custom
None
$ -
Computer wiring
Terratrip
Rallylights.com
$ 60.00
Rally lights
Hella FF1000
Rallylights.com
$ 181.00
Co-Driver light
Hella 87142
Rallylights.com
$ 35.00
Spillkit
Rallylights
Rallylights.com
$ 30.00
Mudflaps
Sparco, Red x4
Rallylights.com
$ 42.00
Roll cage padding
BCSI
Rallylights.com
$ 60.00
Lightbar
Custom
RumbleSoft Racing
$ -
Skidplate repair and install
Custom
RumbleSoft Racing
$ -
Weld on muffler hanger
Custom
Eli or Bret
$ -
Safety Triangles
Generic
Safedrives.com
$ 30.00
Cargo Net for Helmets
Generic
Safedrives.com
$ 18.00
Harnesses
Gforce
Saferacer.com
$ 260.00
Logbook
SCCA
SCCA - 2004
$ -
Fire extinguishers
Kidde
Shop.com
$ 45.00
Tow hook
Custom
Eli or ?
$ -
Stickers for car
ebay
ebay
$ 60.00
Name/Flag Stickers
rallygraphix.com
rallygraphix.com
$ 30.00
Spillkit bag
rallygraphix.com
rallygraphix.com
$ 10.00
Extinguisher stickers
rallygraphix.com
rallygraphix.com
$ 10.00
car decals
rallygraphix.com
rallygraphix.com
$ 100.00
Rumblesoft Bill
Rumblesoft
Rumblesoft
$ 1,165.00

Personal safety equipment

Helmet - Driver
Pyrotect
C2 Motorsports
$ 140.00
Helmet - CoDriver
Zamp
Apex Performance
$ 130.00
Driver's Suit
Sparco 5
Sube Sports
$ 520.00
Co-Driver's Suit
Crow EnterprisesTBD
Sportsman DX
$ 250.00
Driving shoes
Sparco
Sparco
$ 75.00
Driving gloves
Sparco
Sparco
$ 50.00

Licensing and memberships

Eli CRS 2007
CRS
CRS
$ 30.00
Mindy CRS 2007
CRS
CRS
$ 30.00
Eli NASA 2007
NASA
NASA
$ 40.00
Mindy NASA 2007
NASA
NASA
$ 40.00
Eli Competition 2007
NASA
NASA
$ 50.00
Mindy Competition 2007
NASA
NASA
$ 50.00
Send in all documents for Express Reg
NASA
NASA
N/A

Total:
$ 7,026.00

Car Cost
$ 5,596.00

[Tommy Gun Rally]

So as you can see, that's starting from nothing, so your costs, if you have any of this stuff, will be less obviously. And there are some things you can do for a lot cheaper too...some things you really won't though, like a caged and logbooked car for $850....

[Rally OBXT]

Thanks for the breakdown Eli.

Like I said, I guess I am stuck to rally-x for quite some time. :shootsself:

[REDrum]

Just notice this thread, well worth "sticky'n"

For people exploring car build and and event costs, I have excell worksheets for both that I'm willing to share. Just plug in the cost to the line items and it bottom lines everything. Even though I think I know what most "real" cost are in rally, the worksheets help me (or anyone else) with the hard proof.

PM me and I'll share.

Its funny how many people (before plugging the #s in) think a weekend of club rally is ~1,200.00

New England Forest Rally this year was ~$3,250.00 Just for that event costs, no tires, no brakes, no spares,no repairs; and we got a VERY VERY good rate on hotel.



Somebody needs to get rallySPRINT off the ground, there is a market for it!!
jr

The New England Subaru Club, Inc has had interest in initiatiating and developing a program for a while, but the club is short on enthused people to run it.

Rallysprints could also dovetail well into a NA spec subie class too. (NESC, Inc has an initiation white paper on it already)

Both are very viable stepping stones from rally-x to stage rally

[Tommy Gun Rally]

Its funny how many people (before plugging the #s in) think a weekend of club rally is ~1,200.00


I know. Prescott was about $4,000 for us after including $2,200 in repairs from Gorman. Ain't cheap!!!

[UP2MTNS]

I know. Prescott was about $4,000 for us after including $2,200 in repairs from Gorman. Ain't cheap!!!

but subtracting out the tranny repairs, $1800 for Prescott (3 coeff) ain't too bad.

[Tommy Gun Rally]

It is after $10K in other rally expenses this year.... :D

[UP2MTNS]

It is after $10K in other rally expenses this year.... :D

that's RALLY!

<insert studio audience laughter>

[KevinWelker]

My rough numbers from Prescott: Three tanks of fuel for the truck $250 two tanks of fuel for the rally car (need to get that CEL fixed to get better mileage) $100 Entry fee $600 Notes $15? Hotel $238 Team Dinner $80 Beer $90 $1373 - that's about it for us. We'll have to buy a new rear strut mount, we'll spring for the GrpN stuff, so that will be another $50. We gotta cut back on the celebrating, that was more than 10% of the cost!!

[Maverick]

I crewed for Rallynotes.com team for acouple years and they said for them its about $10k a year and thats just to run in CRS Production class with volunteer crew. OUCH

[UP2MTNS]

conga!!

[Galen]

I was thinking about selling my RS and buying an OBS and getting it stage ready. Than do like one event a year (LOL), and a bunch of RallyX's. I would do the "Stock" class or whatever it is called. I figure I could borrow my dads truck, and rent a UHaul or something. As for sleep, I could set up a air mattress in the bed of the truck. Its just that iv really wanted to run stage, but am short on $$.

Anyone else see the logbooked OBS at Vallejo? He drove that to all the events with all his spares and tools in the back. cuts out tow vehical costs (but your trapped if something big breaks...).

[Anders Green]

I wrote up a discourse on this too, about five years ago. It's a little dated now (gas prices!) but covers some of the basics:

http://linaracing.com/howmuch.php

Cheers,
Anders

[UP2MTNS]

Its just that iv really wanted to run stage, but am short on $$.



co-drive! all the fun.....minimal cost.

[GodSquadMandrake]

I was looking at some used rally cars that are in my price range (less than $10,000). It seems like a lot of them are just regular stock cars with roll cages, seats, suspension, and a few other bits. Some of these cars have nothing performance wise done to them but maybe engine tune-up work,and stock brakes with aggressive pads. The real cost seems to still be with things like entry fees, license fees, hotel rooms, gas, repairs, and safety equipment. You know all the little things that you don't really have control over and everyone has to pay to have.

Is buying a used rally car really just buying a used roll cage and seats then? It seems like it. I know I've heard that you should buy your first rally car and not build it. What's so hard about building it? Most people pay someone else to fab their cage anyway so they aren't building that. I can see that part, but besides that what are you building? It seems like it all comes down to the cage and seats.

[carl]

I was looking at some used rally cars that are in my price range (less than $10,000). It seems like a lot of them are just regular stock cars with roll cages, seats, suspension, and a few other bits. Some of these cars have nothing performance wise done to them but maybe engine tune-up work,and stock brakes with aggressive pads. The real cost seems to still be with things like entry fees, license fees, hotel rooms, gas, repairs, and safety equipment. You know all the little things that you don't really have control over and everyone has to pay to have.

Is buying a used rally car really just buying a used roll cage and seats then? It seems like it. I know I've heard that you should buy your first rally car and not build it. What's so hard about building it? Most people pay someone else to fab their cage anyway so they aren't building that. I can see that part, but besides that what are you building? It seems like it all comes down to the cage and seats.
tons of little stuff, it adds up quick. i've probably spent upwards of $500 on hardware store trips alone in the past 2 months.

cage and seats are really only a tiny part of it, if you decide to build your own car I can guarantee you'll revisit that statement and laugh.

buying a car will almost always save you money as opposed to building it. I built my because for me, half the fun is working on the car. Plus I know my car inside and out and know how I put it all together - big plus for troubleshooting.

[GodSquadMandrake]

Please explain further what the little things are Carl. I really have no idea what you would spend $500 on at a hardware store in two months.

[carl]

anything and everything. there is no good way of quantifying it until you actual build one. bolts, nuts, washers, springs, pins, paint, caulk, epoxy, wiring, switches, drill bits, sandpaper, angle iron, fittings, hoses - the list is endless

and that's just the little stuff, in addition to the cage and seats (I spent about $5000 on the cage and seats) you'll find expensive stuff on pretty much every aspect of the car. however, buying used and buying smart can make it attainable. it also depends on what chasis you start with - parts are more abundant and cheaper for some cars than others. on the other hand, starting with a car like an sti isn't bad because of how much money you make parting it out (up until my cage install I had MADE $300 lol)

[KevinWelker]

Yeah, Carl is spot on. Building a car can nickel and dime you to death. Go to a rally and take a really close look at a rally car and you will see all the little bits and pieces that add up to hundreds of dollars and manhours of work.

If you like building the car over a year or two and sitting on the internet viewing pictures and results of rallys, then build it. If you like actually driving in rallys, buy it.

[carl]

If you like building the car over a year or two and sitting on the internet viewing pictures and results of rallys, then build it. If you like actually driving in rallys, buy it.
yea this is a very true statement. I'm running into the issue of having enough time to finish the engine to actually run my local events this year (oddly enough I haven't run out of money, rather, I've run out of time:jack:)

[GodSquadMandrake]

yea this is a very true statement. I'm running into the issue of having enough time to finish the engine to actually run my local events this year (oddly enough I haven't run out of money, rather, I've run out of time:jack:)

Ouch that sucks! That must be very frustrating! The used rally car is probably the smart, better way to go. I have a rare form of stupidity that causes me to question the right answer after I already know it and try to do things bass ackwards all the time. I apologize to the general public for annoying you all! Asking questions is my only cure... :crazy:

[REDrum]

I concur w/ Carl. The hidden cost are hidden and often expensive.

I had been looking to buy or build for 3 years. I have an 04 wrx that is rally preped less cage/seats/belts (been using for TSD/Rx and Recce for two years) Yet I just bought a 02 PGT rally car with log book for twice what the net cage/seats/belts would have cost me. Why? hidden costs.

Buy your first, build your second.

Also, the car I bought is not the color I wanted, not the class I wanted to run, doesn't have the features I wanted, nor do I care for the struts or wheel make/models. Thus I do not have strong emotional attachment to it, so rolling it like a whitewater kayak will not set me crying like a kid who just lost grip on the biggest ballon at the county fair....

One more thing, before I go load the truck for the TONR, rallying cost are more than just entry and car, there are a ton of team cost too that people often overlook ie:
-Trailer
-Truck
-Spares
-Service equipment & tools
-Registration and insuance
-Crash fund
-Memebership
-Safety gear (which expires)
-Marketing
-Hotel nights
-Beer and food for freinds helping out

My perspective is that no one can rally afford to rally, just do it until you run your credit rating down to the mid 500s :headbang:

[UP2MTNS]

buy or build, racing is freaking expensive. Anyone that thinks they can 'rally on the cheap' is kidding themselves.

Sure....Joe can rally CHEAPER than Suzie....but Joe is still paying a LOT to race.

[geekguy]

For those of you interested in exactly how $$ breaks down, I've been doing a spreadsheet (eeep!) of where I am in the process of building my car.

Now, I'm in a bit of a different boat from most folks; I've been doing safety duties/clerk of controls for 3 years now so I've acquired time behind the wheel plus a lot of safety odds and ends already, so my car is a sorta rally car. It's off getting its cage right now.

My timeline would be competition next year, Feb/March at the earliest so many of these expenses are being spread over a year (or more).

This list is by no means complete, but it gives you an idea of what has to go into the car for prep costs (if you search to find deals, or know people who have "rally crack" that's not publicized on forums).

Hit me up with questions or comments.

Spreadsheet: http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pzVyX723h1O45svw9lJGdBQ&hl=en

-Eric

[WAM]

In rallycross there's probably nothing more cost effective than a rental car. Can't you do that stage too? I thought I heard Plan B prepares and rents rally Focus's. Maybe there are other sources too. No idea what they cost -- probably not cheap. But it may be a cost effective way to get into the sport.

And if your eventual intent is to rally AWD, but need to "driver-qualify", do they give credit for private rally driving schools?

[sniper1rfa]

WAM, yes - they give coefficients for some rally schools. They are just as expensive as racing a stage, though - with the advantage of guaranteed seat time.

[thewizard]

We ran Sandblast and blew a rad hose at the start of SS1 and ended our rally about 5miles in. Our cost for the entire event went like this:

Entry Fee: $510
License and Membership renewal + required patches :$126
Hotel 2 nights only: $145 (crashed one night at codrivers place in NC)
Trailer rental: $216
Fuel for towing:~280 (NYC to Cheraw,SC to NJ(drop off a friend)back to NYC)
Food: ~240 (includes coffee, food, dinner at a restaurant etc...)
Tires: Already had a set of new ones so no money spent there this year. For RWV most likely we will have another brand new set for roughly $450
Misc: snacks, beverages, last minute prep parts, hoses, oils etc... 150

Total : 1667

This is running a low budget fwd vw gti. Yes, stock motor, suspension, roll cage and seats! This was a long tow for us and considering we ended up paying 450+ in gas last year i am not complaining. Last year we stayed an extra night, had a crew member with us and our expenses were considerably higher. If you are starting out your expenses will be higher since you have to be there earlier for NCO = extra night at hotel, food expenses, etc... ALso please do remember that this was a relatively cheap event with entry fee only 510.
Oscar

[JacksonRally]

If you like building the car over a year or two and sitting on the internet viewing pictures and results of rallys, then build it. If you like actually driving in rallys, buy it.

Not always true, I built my brothers car in 5 weeks.

[carl]

Not always true, I built my brothers car in 5 weeks.
yea our entire car was done in the "off-season" as well. not quite 5 weeks but still damn fast. Would have been faster if it didn't cost so much!

(Dropped 5k into the car this month alone!)

[KevinWelker]

Not always true, I built my brothers car in 5 weeks.

True, that is one case, Aaron, John and a few others are in the other, more common case....

[UP2MTNS]

We ran Sandblast and blew a rad hose at the start of SS1 and ended our rally about 5miles in.



Total : 1667

This is running a low budget fwd vw gti. Yes, stock motor, suspension, roll cage and seats!
Oscar


no offense to your particular car/efforts, but this is exactly why I'd rather turn my street car (that I know inside and out) into a rally car than buy someone else's unknown issues or build some cheap but random '88 Jetta w/150K miles.


a little off topic but not really.

[thewizard]

no offense to your particular car/efforts, but this is exactly why I'd rather turn my street car (that I know inside and out) into a rally car than buy someone else's unknown issues or build some cheap but random '88 Jetta w/150K miles.


a little off topic but not really.

Actually the rad hose issue was caused after an accident we had at BRS. The new rad support doesnt appear to be the same nor does the mounts for it. The radiator bracket slipped, and the radiator became loose moving around and the hose got torn by the alternator fan. When we changed the hose we must have overtightened it or it bouncing around crack/broke the neck causing it to slip right off.

I know these cars somewhat well and I have also learned a whole lot more. Just coz you know your street car well doesnt mean you will have it sorted as well as someone elses "junk". Most things on used cars are usually sorted, some during events and some as preventitive measures. I could tell you a few things i would want to do on the car to make it more dependable. If you think you could sort a rally car completely you are wrong. A simple thing you never thought of like what happened to me could cause you to DNF. Its live and learn every day. I ran a few events so far and the learning experience has never ended. I have finished my first few events without messing with anything but once i started upgrading things (bigger motor, diff, fd etc.) things started to break or started to cause problems. (it also partially has to do with me getting faster) For someone that is planning on starting out what i would suggest is to make sure you alocate enough time or heaps of money for someone elses time. I find myself (so do others)working on the car several weeks in advance before the event and you never seem to get finished.

[409industries]

yea our entire car was done in the "off-season" as well. not quite 5 weeks but still damn fast. Would have been faster if it didn't cost so much!

(Dropped 5k into the car this month alone!)

Money is pretty much the determining factor in how quickly a car will get built. My car would be done already if i had an endless supply of money to throw at it, but i don't. SO it has been over a year and a half, but things would steadily get worked on over the months. The rally RS build is proof that normal people can get a rally car built, if they are patient and dedicated to the whole process.

On the other hand, people that thing they can spend $500 every couple of weeks on the car and think it will actually get finished are probably delusional. You gotta drop some huge chunks of change into the build whenever possible!

[UP2MTNS]

Actually the rad hose issue was caused after an accident we had at BRS. The new rad support doesnt appear to be the same nor does the mounts for it. The radiator bracket slipped, and the radiator became loose moving around and the hose got torn by the alternator fan. When we changed the hose we must have overtightened it or it bouncing around crack/broke the neck causing it to slip right off.

I know these cars somewhat well and I have also learned a whole lot more. Just coz you know your street car well doesnt mean you will have it sorted as well as someone elses "junk". Most things on used cars are usually sorted, some during events and some as preventitive measures. I could tell you a few things i would want to do on the car to make it more dependable. If you think you could sort a rally car completely you are wrong. A simple thing you never thought of like what happened to me could cause you to DNF. Its live and learn every day. I ran a few events so far and the learning experience has never ended. I have finished my first few events without messing with anything but once i started upgrading things (bigger motor, diff, fd etc.) things started to break or started to cause problems. (it also partially has to do with me getting faster) For someone that is planning on starting out what i would suggest is to make sure you alocate enough time or heaps of money for someone elses time. I find myself (so do others)working on the car several weeks in advance before the event and you never seem to get finished.

<sigh> really?

like I said...nothing against YOU or YOUR CAR. and I certainly didn't call anything "junk". Have you SEEN all the used rally car's I've posted on DI from specialstage.com and encouring people to buy, not build?

http://www.dirtyimpreza.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8978
http://www.dirtyimpreza.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6374
etc.

From the few rallies I've attended, i've noticed that the majority of cars that DNF due to small things are quite a bit older....passed around....etc. I apologize for sterotyping a little.

and I never said I could completely sort a rally car....where did I say that? Sh1t, I can't get my car sorted on the street 100%....hence...hell, why not make it a rally car?:mrgreen: (but for the record.....JAckson Rally....those boys can sort a flocking rally car...)

And you only work on your car several weeks before each event? Man, that's easy....I work on my car constantly.;)

alright, I'm just busting your balls at this point. I'm sorry I used your example to make a small point, I didn't think you'd get all butthurt.:machinegunleft: But you need to lose the internet shoulder chip....I get **** all the time for building a subaru (aka: sub-a-rat), even moreso for building one that I drive on the street right now....I think you'll find that car people/rally people have some interesting opinions, and you can't take every little quip personally.

rally on!

[MatthewakaMatt]

To be honest, I can't imagine how anyone who isn't independently wealthy or good enough to get paid to rally from the start can afford to do this, especially considering how likely crashing the car on the first stage seems to be.

[UP2MTNS]

To be honest, I can't imagine how anyone who isn't independently wealthy or good enough to get paid to rally from the start can afford to do this, especially considering how likely crashing the car on the first stage seems to be.

well, 'independently wealthy' is a little overkill, but i'll quote myself....

buy or build, racing is freaking expensive. Anyone that thinks they can 'rally on the cheap' is kidding themselves.

Sure....Joe can rally CHEAPER than Suzie....but Joe is still paying a LOT to race.

[A1337STI]

Buy or Build, does building mean watching?
Depends on your situation, if you have your entire car build budget saved up at once, sold stocks, cashed out a scratch and win ticket, etc, then I agree with Kevin, Building from scratch could mean watching results on the net. Building is going to take time. Some shops, teams can really crank one out fast, 5 weeks is Insane! But still handing over cash and get handed car keys is even faster.

Though if the shop/ your team will have your car Built by the start date of the next rally you plan to attend you do not miss out!

Now if your car budget , is a % of your income , and that budget is starting at $0.00 on a given date, like in my situation. You will either have to save up money for a completed rally car, and buy it all at once. Or you buy the car, and prep it as your budget allows. This will let you drive your car around town in various states of being prepared. which is good and bad. you spend extra money on insurance and registration sooner, but you also get a chance fix what was probably going to break on stage 1.

My fuel pump went out on my car after a few weeks of driving it around town, and my steering rack bushings went from ok to horrible in a very short time frame as well. both fixed up before my first rally.

Unless your goal is to start at a specific Rally, as was mine. The slow build up plan is likely to cost you a rally that you could have attended sooner. Which may or may not matter to you. If you are planning to do an entire series, this is a big deal. if you plan on doing 2 rallies a year, it may not matter as much.

Basically you just need to be able to analyze your own financial situation, be honest with your self, and be capable of living below your means.

I think the beaten up dead horse of "racing is expensive" is true. But i also think regardless of income anyone capable of living $500 below their means, per month, could afford to rally. you won't be doing a full series , but you will get out there and have fun.

[Tommy Gun Rally]

I can see both sides of this issue since I've done both (more or less).

I do have to say however that the 'little' things that go wrong on some of the older cars are typically things that can be remedied rather quickly and cheaply, like a radiator hose, or an alternator or something. With Subies, hell, you can bust millions of things that are all $$$$$$$$$ - for one control arm (alum) you could get a whole new cooling system for a VW! And since someone has rallied the older car, that means that at very least a few bugs have been worked out, whether this means upgraded engine mounts, a bigger radiator, hell, even by putting more expensive head gaskets in. I'd take a rally car that has been to a few events over a newly built one anyday.

But the truth is, no matter what the car, the cost, the build, the experience level, or number of spares you have, you will break and you will be **** out of luck sooner or later. I've been fortunate to finish every event I've driven in (which isnt many, but still)....The one event I didn't finish (as a co-driver) was because someone didn't put a radiator cap on at service, which resulted in a blown motor 2 stages in. See what I mean?

And I think the Jackson Rally car is the exception to the 'buy vs build' argument because few people have the time or resources to do what Keith and Kyle did in such a short amount of time.

[katnip]

the dirty impreza neon was one of those buy instead of build deals

we bought a gti to build into a rally car and it quickly became obvious that it would be cheaper to buy a built rally car.

the neon has seen nothing but stage miles, it was built by a dodge engineer for rallying. it has been crashed, including rolled, many times. and yet we bought it, it is a very well sorted out group 2 car.

unfort, in the 4 + years we have owned it it has run all 3 team o'neil rallys and last years NEFR, all local to us.

the team, ODB Motorsports, has a pickup for service (both driver and co-driver have one as a household vehicle) the co-driver owns a trailer and the driver owns a rally car. the driver is a mechanic and has a garage to do the work in, both driver and co-driver have all safety equip or rent it, yet we can't afford to go to many events.

time off from work, gas, lodging, etc, etc, make it hard for the average motorhead to rally.

buying a built car, that you have researched extensively, is the least expensive way in!

[carl]

I was curious so I crunched some numbers. approaching 50k total investment (car, parts, tow vehicle, daily driver, equipment)

[REDrum]

......buying a built car, that you have researched extensively, is the least expensive way in!
VERY good example Katnip!!

And this is from a person/team that is right in the center of rally in NE. I researched >100 used rally cars over 3 years and got up close and personal w/ few dozen before I threw down on one; all the while with $10K cash in hand.

There are good deals to be had, more so now than two/three years ago, but you need to research not only the car but the availability/cost of spares. (IE VW Mark I/IIs can be had cheap but spares are getting rare)

That said, even though I have PGT class WRX, I still would like to cage/prep my DD WRX wagon. But that is another hobby alltogether....

Happy motoring

[409industries]

bump for the great cost breakdown in the OP

[Rally OBXT]

Bump for sticky!!

I love Mod powers!! :muhaha:

[K-A-N-U]

Hi there,

In your initial post you said:

FIA approved seats (driver and Co-driver)..............$750 - $3,000


I looked trough 2010 Rally-America rule book and this is what I found about the seats:
Page 33 , 5.4. SEATS
A. Driver and co-driver seats shall be firmly mounted to the structure of the
vehicle and be installed per the manufacturer's recommendations. Seat
mounts require the same strength as occupant restraints (3500 lbs.).
B. The use of hinged-back seats in rally vehicles is prohibited.
C. Seats designed by the manufacturer to be mounted with a back support
brace shall be mounted accordingly. Seats not designed to be mounted
with a back support may have one added. Back supports shall be
designed and constructed in such a manner as to spread the load over
as large an area of the seat back as practical.
D. Competitors shall retain manufacturer installation recommendations with
the rally vehicle’s logbook for review at scrutineering

I don't see anything about being FIA approved. I'm not trying to argue or anything, I just need some advise on what seats are acceptable. If anyone is rallying and was recently dealing with this subject. I'm looking for a pair of racing seats and as you know racing is always on a budget, especially for the little teams. Here are the sets that I found and I hope that can be used for Stage Rally: http://www.racing-seats-usa.com/820.html

http://http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/racing-seats_2087_1526372 http://assets0.saferacer.com/images/P/00823_1_lg.jpg

[KevinWelker]

non-FIA is ok for Rally America (at least for now) but not for any other rallys. So it's in your best interest to go FIA depending on what events you plan to attend.

[K-A-N-U]

Thanks for the info Kevin!

On the link I provided above it says: FIA Homologated?Yes (CS.180.06)

Does that mean that they are FIA approved? And if yes do you happen to know if they will be acceptable to other common rally races, time attacks or other races.

[KevinWelker]

On the link I provided above it says: FIA Homologated?Yes (CS.180.06)

yes


Does that mean that they are FIA approved? And if yes do you happen to know if they will be acceptable to other common rally races, time attacks or other races.

You will have to read the rules of the other sanctioning bodies to confirm. Being a competitive driver involves reading and understanding rules almost as much as it requires talent behind the wheel. But generally FIA seats are widely accepted.

[A1337STI]

Here is your cheapest FIA Approved Rally seat (280ish shipped)

http://www.google.com/products?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&hl=en&source=hp&q=momo%20t-club&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wf

I use these in my car. Just like Most of the 750-1000 seats this model has been tested on a 21G impact sled. (required for FIA certification)

I'm sure there are safer seats out there, BUT you can't go on cost alone.
There's a seat out there that's been tested on a 70G Impact sled :shocked: and it probably costs the same as a seat tested on a 21G sled (was out of my price range )

Some seats will cost a lot more and not have any better Test results than the Momo T-Club. Some have different openings for Belts (You planning on 5, 6 or 7 point?) Find some test results to base your purchase decision from. (and if you can test fit for comfort !!!)

The ones with (head wrap around / halo) ? protect your neck better and **might** become required in the future for Rally America events.

With safety you want to spend as much as you can afford, but then verify the extra money means extra protection!

I ran into an interesting similar situation with suits, where the $200 model actually provided better protection (26) than the $300 models (20)
where the number is the number of half seconds until you get 2nd degree burns

[A1337STI]

Oops i think its 20G is the fia 8855-1999 standard used to test / certify seats:

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/6CC535B9F4ADFF76C12574430035205F/$FILE/Competition_seat.pdf

Found a newer FIA Standard :

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/87DE058E9D824DD9C125755500546904/$FILE/8862-2009_Advanced_Racing_Seat.pdf

8862-2009 Is their newer standard so if you are going to spend big bucks on seat, make sure it has the newest fia certification.

[UP2MTNS]

I think most people don't realize NASA rules are actually more strict than RA rules (FIA seats, more cage requirements, etc)

RA got a bad rap when they mandated HANS about 18 months before NASA, but everyone saw that coming anyway.

[Tommy Gun Rally]

most important - dont buy a seat without sitting in it first! those cheapo momos might work but they feel like a prison when you sit in em (my opinion).

I still think RaceTech offers the best, most comfortable, affordable FIA seat.

[carl]

i like my cobras. plus even the lower level ones are kevlar

[409industries]

i like my cobras. plus even the lower level ones are kevlar

I was going to mention this as well. Kevlar, FIA approved and very comfortable. Sure there are cheaper, but this is a good seat for the money.

[A1337STI]

The real test of your rally seat is to drive 600 miles to (or from) an event in it consecutive. Does your back hurt?

When i got back from Idaho i was actually just fine ?!?

If i Drive my rally car to work a few times a week (100 round trip each time) I notice my back doesn't get sore if i'm in the car a lot.

If i don't drive my car at all for a long time (long time to me = 1 month) i find that a single trip to work and back causes me a bit of soreness.

Maybe that's a sign that a different seat would offer me more comfort?

I just combat it by doing some back exercises!


These guys are right though !!! Try out the seat before you buy it !!!

[beatersubi]

5.4. SEATS
A. Driver and co-driver seats shall be firmly mounted to the structure of the
vehicle and be installed per the manufacturer's recommendations.

More importantly, does this preclude mounting seats to a 'U' bar, attached to the cage? Or mounting seats to the cage at all.

[K-A-N-U]

Thanks everyone for all the help.

[A1337STI]

More importantly, does this preclude mounting seats to a 'U' bar, attached to the cage? Or mounting seats to the cage at all.

Not sure what you mean by U Bar, but i know its encouraged to mount your seat to your roll cage. I have square tubing attatched to my roll cage that my seat mounts to. and i may get an extra bar or two tied into the cage and the seat bracket bar for over kill.

:machinegunleft: overkill the best kind of kill!

[weavus4]

very informative thread. Looking to get on the stage ASAP i now know more of what needs to get done to get there
thanks everyone who has contributed!

[cmk82600]

I beg to differ with the numbers presented in the original post of this thread. My buddy and I built 2 rally cars in the last 6 years, each one purchased for $400. 1st was 88 honda crx and 2nd was a 90 eagle talon none turbo. break down of costs now.
Roll Cage $1500
seats $300 for both one purchased used one new
other related stuff about $1000
so far $3200
already had a tow vehicle
trailer supplied by buddys local rental store as sponser
enrty fee for regional rally $375
add in Helmets and fire suits another $350
my helmet was new for $150 and my suit used for $80 from ebay
buddys helemt and suit purchased used for $120
so for $3925 we entered our first stage rally

[REDrum]

Let’s be honest here for a moment though, the $15,00 number is VERY low and the $100,000 is VERY high. It will probably cost you somewhere between $20,000 and $50,000 to start your first stage rally.


The OP is spot on with the above full retail cost. Albeit, there is bell shape curve to everything in life, including stage rally costs. Sure you can do it for cheap (on the far left side of the curve) but my experince is that people are not honest with their cost accounting. All the little stuff adds up, and used gear is not always available when you need it, so to budget anything <$5K to build. In my experince, $10K is safe low end rally build budget on top of a used base car; some new some used stuff, (perhaps someones already RX preped car). And that is before trailer/truck/spares/tools/insurance/registration... Always better to budget high and come in low, than the reverse.

I've seen some regional teams run 6 events a year and add up $10K in receipts and others $30K when it all settles down. With later claim "we had no idea we were spending so much...."

Happy motoring

[UP2MTNS]

I beg to differ with the numbers presented in the original post of this thread. My buddy and I built 2 rally cars in the last 6 years, each one purchased for $400. 1st was 88 honda crx and 2nd was a 90 eagle talon none turbo. break down of costs now.
Roll Cage $1500
seats $300 for both one purchased used one new
other related stuff about $1000
so far $3200
already had a tow vehicle
trailer supplied by buddys local rental store as sponser
enrty fee for regional rally $375
add in Helmets and fire suits another $350
my helmet was new for $150 and my suit used for $80 from ebay
buddys helemt and suit purchased used for $120
so for $3925 we entered our first stage rally

but I don't think $1500 for a roll cage is typical for the average person.

same with the tow vehicle and trailer sponsor (nice, btw).

and you're list is missing some critical (and expensive) bits....HANS device, rally licenses, car insurance/registration, suspension (?), intercom, gas for towing, and hotel.

BUT, also good to show you don't need to buy $900 racing suits and a $10,000 starter car.

[Tommy Gun Rally]

I beg to differ with the numbers presented in the original post of this thread. My buddy and I built 2 rally cars in the last 6 years, each one purchased for $400. 1st was 88 honda crx and 2nd was a 90 eagle talon none turbo. break down of costs now.
Roll Cage $1500
seats $300 for both one purchased used one new
other related stuff about $1000
so far $3200
already had a tow vehicle
trailer supplied by buddys local rental store as sponser
enrty fee for regional rally $375
add in Helmets and fire suits another $350
my helmet was new for $150 and my suit used for $80 from ebay
buddys helemt and suit purchased used for $120
so for $3925 we entered our first stage rally

I dont think your costs are representative either. I would say that the average person couldn't get near to your costs, especially helmets and suits for $350!?! RA/NASA compliant cage for $1,500 I dont buy either, unless you helped or were owed a favor. Truck and trailer are a BIG cost to ignore.

[cmk82600]

roll cage was done by Davenport Racing in Princeton Minnesota, cost was $1500. FIA spec except not tied into the front strut towers (not required by rally america) helmets are SA2000 spec which is still currently legal in RA rules. I did forget about tires, but we got I believe 8 used ones from a buddy for around $250-300. rally licenses = $100 each. HANS device was not required when we rallyed, we rallyed on stock acura integra suspension swapped into the CRX, that we got from a buddy for nothing. so if you are creative and take the time to find stuff used or on the cheap, and You take the time to find a roll cage builder that isn't ripping you off you can run a rally from scratch for under 5k. And I'm sorry some of you don't believe that it can be done for that low of a price tag, but it can be and has been.

[Rally OBXT]

Yes, it can be done....but not very likely.

[UP2MTNS]

ok...I'll bite. how is >$1500 for a roll cage a ripoff? at 40 hours, that's only $31.25/hr (I subtracted $250 for materials)...a bit low for hours, and very low for skilled custom labor/machine shop/fabrication rates.

its not whether I believe it ( I do believe you paid that much, and if that's what Davenport is charging per hour...well, that's their business), I just think the average market rate across the US is higher than that, and I'm sure if I call Davenport today, that's not their hourly rate.


And yes, pre-HANS device rallying was cheaper, but that's not reality today....did the rules even require A-pillar reinforcements back then? I'm guessing taco gussets weren't required either on x-bars, etc.

[Tommy Gun Rally]

mmmmmmmmmm tacos

[thewizard]

We are building a couple of cars and I can assure you roll cage material will cost more than 250bucks. Its not only the tubing you need but sheet metal, welding wire, gas etc. It will easily be over 500 bucks and thats with me going and picking up the tubing at unhead of prices. In fact, the DOM alone would run you over 300 bucks (more for some cars)

[cmk82600]

I didn't mean to start a argument, I was just stating that if one could get a roll cage built for $1500, why pay more? don't believe they have an hourly rate, just a flat rate for the cage build and install. A-pillar gussets were included, taco plates were not.

[UP2MTNS]

I didn't mean to start a argument, I was just stating that if one could get a roll cage built for $1500, why pay more? don't believe they have an hourly rate, just a flat rate for the cage build and install. A-pillar gussets were included, taco plates were not.

no arguement! just discussion ;)


If that's really the case, Davenport should become a vendor over here and advertise more...lots of people who'd like to get a RA cage in their car for that kind of price. Out here in Cali....not too many shops that'll do less than $3500....although, that's for a NASA cage which has a few more requirements than RA. either way, big price gap.

[cmk82600]

I am not sure what they charge now, but even 3 years ago when we had the last cage done it was $1500 no front strut tower tie in and no tacos.

[REDrum]

Best price in new england for RA compliant cage in a subaru these days is ~2,000.00 Three guys to choose from. Steel has gone up a bit in 3 years.

[UP2MTNS]

I did get all my steel last year for about $280 and even had about 6 feet left over that I'm using for a rear strut bar.. I shopped around a bit too....saw a wide range of prices.


I think the BIG point of this thread is that rally can be almost as cheap and definitely as expensive as you want it to be.

[Dan McGinn]

I think the BIG point of this thread is that rally can be almost as cheap and definitely as expensive as you want it to be.


+1 to that! The "built, not bought" expression works just as well in rally as it does in other motorsports. Aside from the cage and rebuilding motors/transmissions, I think most of the building of a rally car can be learned on the go by someone of decent mechanical aptitude so long as they have the drive and work ethic.
And even regarding cages, I would argue that the average person can do their own cage. :thumbsup: Here is how that would work.


Buy a cage kit (http://www.safedrives.com/proddetail.asp?prod=APSRRC) like the one SafeDrives sells. $1450 + shipping
Buy a decent (Miller, Lincoln, FTP) used MIG welder ~$500
Get 8' or so of extra DOM
Spend a month of nights and weekends notching small pieces of tubes and welding them together until you can lay a decent bead.
Fit and Weld!
If you're getting into rally, you may as well learn how to weld, so now you have a caged car and a welder for $2000!

[Freeskier]

And even regarding cages, I would argue that the average person can do their own cage. :thumbsup: Here is how that would work.


Buy a cage kit (http://www.safedrives.com/proddetail.asp?prod=APSRRC) like the one SafeDrives sells. $1450 + shipping
Buy a decent (Miller, Lincoln, FTP) used MIG welder ~$500
Get 8' or so of extra DOM
Spend a month of nights and weekends notching small pieces of tubes and welding them together until you can lay a decent bead.
Fit and Weld!
If you're getting into rally, you may as well learn how to weld, so now you have a caged car and a welder for $2000!


That was my intent all along. Got the cage kit. Bought a MillerMatic 211. Have extra tubing 1.5", 1.75" round stock, 1" square stock, 1/8" sheet, etc.
I've been spending most of my time on the seam welding and practicing with the tubing like you said. I'm finding the thicker tubing and 1/8" sheet much easier to weld and lay a good bead. I can't seem to get consistent good welds on the sheet metal for seam welding.
Now I'm debating whether or not my welding skills are good enough to do the cage. After all it's what is supposed to save my life in the event of an off/roll.

[Dan McGinn]

Freeskier, cut a couple stubby pieces of tube and weld them together, then post a pic. We'll be able to tell better by looking at your weld how far along your skills are. If you don't want to do it in a public forum like this, you might be able to email the pic to one of the tech inspectors for RA or NASA and see what they think of the weld quality. Today's cameras with their 'macro' setting can get some good close up pics!

[cmk82600]

just remember, a bad looking weld is always a bad weld, but a good looking weld isn't always a good weld

[Dan McGinn]

just remember, a bad looking weld is always a bad weld, but a good looking weld isn't always a good weld

For sure!

[Freeskier]

Freeskier, cut a couple stubby pieces of tube and weld them together, then post a pic. We'll be able to tell better by looking at your weld how far along your skills are. If you don't want to do it in a public forum like this, you might be able to email the pic to one of the tech inspectors for RA or NASA and see what they think of the weld quality. Today's cameras with their 'macro' setting can get some good close up pics!

Will do and I'm not afraid of feedback so let me have it. I'll update this post in the next few days with a link to a "judge my welds" thread.

[Tommy Gun Rally]

First welding project a cage to save your life? eesh

[Allwheelsdriven.net]

First welding project a cage to save your life? eesh

What he said...^^^ :)

Freeskier, you can shoot me over a pic of your welds when you have pics. I'm an R-A and NASA tech inspector.

I'm all for saving money during the course of a build, but safety gear, especially the cage, isn't where one should cut costs. :thumbsup:

Barrett-
www.allwheelsdriven.net (http://www.allwheelsdriven.net)

[Rallycat66]

From personal experience with a cage installed by someone with experience doing general welding tasks, but not roll cages...

Installed a cage kit and the welds all "looked" good when completed. After a very gentle roll on the car's second event, two of the joints cracked and the logbook got pulled.

I would hate to think what would have happened had the cage been put in a situation when it needed to do it's job rather than simply flexing with the rest of the chassis as the car rolled over.

Moral of the story is that the cage is not something you want to take any chances with. Find yourself someone with very good references (including from people who have actually put their cages to use) and lots of experience specifically with roll cages to do the welding for you.

[Dan McGinn]

I think I may have come off a bit nonchalant in my encouraging non-welders/cage builders to do a cage. With that in mind....

Freeskier. I encourage you to learn how to weld properly... practice, practice, practice. Spend dozens, if not a hundred hours welding tube before you do a cage. Like the others said, your life will depend upon it.

To add some gravity to the thread I would draw your attention to a fatal rally crash. I won't post the pics here, not that they are too gruesome, but Flavio Guglielmini lost his life in this crash, so I think it would be bad form to ambush anyone with the shots. If you want to see what can happen, the forces that are put on a cage in a hard-off, go here (http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?showtopic=112353). The middle of the page describes what may have happened and there are links there to the pics. Learn from it. *edit: I'm not saying that the welds failed, probably just the opposite, tube failed near a weld.





http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/9666/18876435.jpg

[Freeskier]

Thanks to everyone for the input. I don't think my earlier post came across the right way.
I originally intended to do it on my own but I don't trust my welding skills enough for the cage that is supposed to save my life.
But I will still take pictures of some of my welds to get feedback.
And I have already found a good shop to do the welding of the cage kit.

[Dan McGinn]

Thanks to everyone for the input. I don't think my earlier post came across the right way.
I originally intended to do it on my own but I don't trust my welding skills enough for the cage that is supposed to save my life.
But I will still take pictures of some of my welds to get feedback.
And I have already found a good shop to do the welding of the cage kit.


Good call, def. post pics of your welds.

[Jonsonator]

If you practice welding enough to the point where you think you can do a cage, just go get certified! the test costs anywhere from like 160-300 or so dollars. thats cheap reassurance that your welds are good. they get tested over and over again for cleanliness, penetration and all that. if you fail the test there is no better feedback than that on what you need to practice to produce a killer weld. once your certified in it you wont have to pay anyone else again to do a cage again!

[Dan McGinn]

If you practice welding enough to the point where you think you can do a cage, just go get certified! the test costs anywhere from like 160-300 or so dollars. thats cheap reassurance that your welds are good. they get tested over and over again for cleanliness, penetration and all that. if you fail the test there is no better feedback than that on what you need to practice to produce a killer weld. once your certified in it you wont have to pay anyone else again to do a cage again!


Good idea!

[SoCalBoomer]

You can practice before you go to take the practical tests - they're pretty straightforward depending on what you're doing. They're destructive tests and typically based on .120 cold stock.

The tests I took (for 4.1.1 and 4.1.3 MIG and TIG) were butt joint (1/8" gap), lap joint, 90 deg joint . . . there was one other but I'll have to look at my sheet. Run a 1" weld, then break the pieces apart - the weld must not break - you should rip the metal apart, not the weld. If you can do that consistently, you're set.

Remember, 1" weld then test to destruction.

[UP2MTNS]

I recently got a 20 ton press and want to do some 30-45 degree joint welds with .095 dom tubing and then do some compression testing.

Look for a separate thread... 8)

[WhiteZenki]

screw college. I'm just going to use the money to build a rally car

[Rally OBXT]

Good luck with that. :p

[Jard]

screw college. I'm just going to use the money to build a rally car

Make sure you do a good job so I can buy it for pennies on the dollar when you are broke! :lol:

[MConte05]

So just thought I'd pop in here with my cost breakdown for getting on the stages for my first rally:

Found a killer deal on a used rally car for $1800 + some JDM STI brakes I had on my WRX, so for practical purposes, lets just say that I spent $2600-3000 for the used car.

However it needed a co-driver seat, harnesses, intercom, and I needed a HNR. I had already had a suit and helmet from my co-driving. But I will factor that in. I tried not to save too much on my safety equipment, so I bought the best seats and harnesses I could.



$2600 for the car that included a sparco circuit seat and Sparco harness.
$600 for the Peltor Helmet
$500 for the OMP Driving Suit
$300 for a used DefNder HNR device
$150 for a new co-driver harness
$400 for a used Sparco Circuit seat
$240 for an FMT120 intercom
$100 for fire extinquishers
$50 for first aid kit
$75 for cage padding



$5000 or so total to get a used car stage ready with the proper safety equipment for the car AND the driver. My actual cost from getting the car to stage ready was more like $3900 since I had most of the safety equipment already.

I also did some things like painting the cage, installing new switches, push button start, sparco steering wheel, and flocking the dash. However the above just represents the minimum required to get the car back up to spec. Now for the race. I had a friend with a truck, and another friend with a trailer, so he was able to tow me down to Perryville, which was only an hour and a half away.


$80 for towing gas
$120 for two nights at a cheap hotel
$150 in food/drinks/random
$250 for entry fee
$30 for rally car gas

So the total bare minimum cost... to get me into my first event and on gravel assuming I had no prior safety gear? Just around $6000.

:crazy:

I also wrecked the car. :mrgreen:

[A1337STI]

i hope you wrecked the car during the rally ... though that's still very crappy ..

What rally ?

[MConte05]

I did wreck the car during the rally. Second to last stage, on the last corner of the stage. Could see the finish boards from where I wrecked. :D

Getting the car back together for Sno*Drift. Ended up buying a parts Legacy car for $1200, buying new harness for myself since mine is now expired, and a new fire extinguisher. The event costs for SD are probably going to be around $1500 or so after fuel, entry, notes, food, etc.

No doubt it's expensive. But the stories, pictures, and experiences are 100% worth it to me. :)

*EDIT* It was the Perryville Rally in Perryville, MO. I did a full event writeup on my build journal.

[A1337STI]

ah glad you are staying with it.. I'll have to click over to your journal and do a little reading. :)

[UP2MTNS]

I ran 5 events this year out of NorCal....here's what I spent (anything not labeled 'rally' was automotive related, but not directly related to rally). I inluded everything else so you can see how much I spent relative to my other 'automotive' expenses (mainly gas).

Event details here:
http://up2mtns.blogspot.com/2012/01/my-championship-season-of-dnfs.html



http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/6231/mintjb.png


couple caveats specific to myself:

-doesn't include tires (Lassa sponsorship), although i did buy a super cheap set of hankooks at the end of the year
-doesn't include my TRANNY rebuild in January, but does include the new clutch and front diff
-includes some income from the 2 rallyX events I ran
-includes some income from selling used stuff and I think some Peltor headsets earlier in the year
-Gas used for rally/towing is listed under rally
-includes the engine rebuild after DS (cheaper than most rebuilds due to sponsorship)
-includes the new turbo (ditto above)
-doesn't include insurance, which was bundled and is a separate line item.


So, 5 events at $3000/event is pretty good considering I destroyed an engine, a tranny case/front ring and pinion, and a TD05 20G turbo.

[REDrum]

So, 5 events at $3000/event

When I combine each event costs with all rally costs (i.e. truck/trailer maintenance, crash costs, sponsor graphics, team jackets, tools, blah-blah-blah....) I'm a bit north of that.

[russellmn]

After I build my shop this summer I'm gonna make a run at a DIRT CHEAP open light build... I have an advantage in that I can build my cage and do all the other fabrication myself. All I have to pay for really will be tires/wheels and suspension. Safety gear of course as well... I think I can come in around $4k...

[UP2MTNS]

All I have to pay for really will be tires/wheels and suspension.

...and pay to build your shop, first, too ;) Even DIY has a cost!!

[russellmn]

I've got a shop already, just moving out to the family farm instead. The shop will be my house as well. And the shop will be built regardless of if I build a rally car. I'm always building something, whether for myself or for a customer, I've ALWAYS got a project in the shop, so I don't look at that as a cost to building the car...

I can't remember the last time I DIDN'T have a shop to work in... Except when I was in the Army, I always had a good size shop/garage, while I was at Ft Campbell we had the hobby shop... I don't think I've ever gone more than 3 months without a shop to work in. Guess I've been lucky.

Will be interesting to see if I can pull off my sub-$4k price tag...

[HiTempguy]

Well, if you look at the price of things:

-Seats (minimum $1000 for a pair of fibreglass ones, you could do $300 tube ones)
-Belts ($300 for the pair)
-one set of tires and rims (~$150 per tire, $150 per rim if running a rally rim, so another $1500 for 5 rims/tires)
-skid plates (buying them or fabbing them on your own, you are still looking at a couple hundred bucks when everything is all said and done)
-suspension minimum $1500
-intercom min $200

So realistically, you'd be up to a bare minimum of $4k (more like $4500) just with this stuff (and really, you still are missing some essential rally equipment). Yes, you can run used everything and as much OEM equipment as possible which would cut costs... I guess what I am saying is even getting the best of the best deals on everything, I'll be very impressed if you get the car on stage minus personal safety equipment (helmet, HNR, and suit) for under $4k. Good luck with the project!

[acco205]

Honestly, I doubt it.

If you add up the costs of things you CANT manufacture and buy only the cheapest parts, you'll still break that with suspension and safety gear alone.

The cheapest rally-proof suspension I've found is from allwheelsdriven at $2500. Might be able to find something used for less, but then plan on $75+/corner to refresh.

cheapest FIA seats are around $400 x2
cheap harnesses for around $60 x2

then factor in saftey triangles, fire extinguishers, escape tools etc for a few hundred to meet bare minimums. we'll aim low and say $300.

So before personal safety gear you already have less than $400 to finish you build.

then add in personal gear: hans will run you $700, helmet at least $200, suit at least $200

Then all sorts of odds and ends, brake line fittings, switches, wiring, computer, intercom, paint, hardware etc.

Cant forget the cost of raw materials either. DOM steel isnt exactly cheap and a NASA spec cage has a lot of it.

And this is assuming you aren't factoring in the cost of the car.

Not trying to bust your bubble, being able to fabricate yourself will save you a TON! But trying to do a full build for under $4k is going to be quite a stretch if you dont already have a bank of parts of pull from.

Standard rule of thumb with any form of motorsports is find your budget, then double it.

*edit*

hitempguy beat me to it..

[russellmn]

Believe me guys, this ain't the first rig I've built. My budget will be more along the lines of $10k, but I'm gonna try to get on stage for FAR less than that. I'm not saying it'll be even remotely done once it's on it's first stage, but that I'll get out there. Suspension will be oem to begin with, just winter tires and steel wheels, helmet, race suit, HANS etc used off of RDC or similar, have belts, seats used,

I believe it can be done, just gotta shop around, don't be in a hurry, and don't be afraid to go out without coilovers, rally tires, TD wheels, intercom (yell louder), etc...
everyone gets too focused on a "winning" setup when the first year or two you should just be happy to finish, THEN you can start thinking about winning.

[russellmn]

btw... I built this, from a pile of tubing and some castoff parts that were laying around, in 3 months, for less than $3k...

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n190/russellmn/single%20seater/2011-07-21_10-32-04_670.jpg
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n190/russellmn/single%20seater/2011-07-21_10-32-35_840.jpg

Was it perfect? No. Did it get me on the trail? yup. Would I have liked to have the fancy axles, big tires, better engine/trans/transfer case? Hell yes, I'd love to have all that, but I'm too cheap to spend what new junk cost for that stuff! So, I make do with what I can get cheap/used/free.

[kturner]

I believe it can be done, just gotta shop around, don't be in a hurry, and don't be afraid to go out without coilovers, rally tires, TD wheels, intercom (yell louder), etc...
everyone gets too focused on a "winning" setup when the first year or two you should just be happy to finish, THEN you can start thinking about winning.

can you get to a rally for around $4k? yes. will you finish and have the car/equipment/fun you need to go and do another? who knows. You're right you know don't need all the wiz bang gadgets to get out there and have fun but rally is also a team sport that requires clear reliable communication between the team members so you might want an intercom (ask anyone who has had one go out, maybe you used it as an example, I don't know).

if you are thinking about making it a year or two you have to plan and invest in the right parts. How many sets of stock struts will you need per event? (2 or 3 if you're quick) you'll be half way to a clubman set by then.

it can be done hope to see you out there.

[acco205]

Believe me guys, this ain't the first rig I've built. My budget will be more along the lines of $10k, but I'm gonna try to get on stage for FAR less than that. I'm not saying it'll be even remotely done once it's on it's first stage, but that I'll get out there. Suspension will be oem to begin with, just winter tires and steel wheels, helmet, race suit, HANS etc used off of RDC or similar, have belts, seats used,

I believe it can be done, just gotta shop around, don't be in a hurry, and don't be afraid to go out without coilovers, rally tires, TD wheels, intercom (yell louder), etc...
everyone gets too focused on a "winning" setup when the first year or two you should just be happy to finish, THEN you can start thinking about winning.

ehhh...while you can get by without things like an intercom or computer, proper suspension isn't really optional, nor are a good set of wheels.

Suspension takes a real beating. If its a smoother rally you MIGHT be able to get through it with OEM but its really not meant to take the beating and will likely fail on you (read: not finishing at all)

As far as wheels, I've seen many teams use non dedicated gravel wheels BUT, steels will bend far easier and I believe will not always pass tech and snow tires are very likely to be damaged because they are soft are will require higher pressure to run. Also new snow tires = $100-200/each. lightly used rally rubber $50 each.

You'll likely spend less money getting the correct equipment the first time because you wont have to replace it mid race/DNF/etc

IMO cutting corners is not a good way to save money in motorsports.

Either way, good luck with your build and I hope you can prove everyone wrong!

[russellmn]

Hell, I'll likely prove myself wrong before I prove anyone else wrong! Lol. Intercom is nice, but I know of a few teams that don't use em, puter, again, not worried about winning as much as just finishing, but that doesn't mean I won't be looking for a used one that someone took out to upgrade. I like steel wheels, if they bend you can bang em back straight. Rally tires, if I find em at $50/ea, I can run those on steelies. Used dspecs should work for a lil while I would think.

Like I said, I'm likely to prove myself wrong, decide I want all the whiz-bang fun stuff, or maybe not even find time to build my own rig all together. We'll see...

[alosix]

Hell, I'll likely prove myself wrong before I prove anyone else wrong! Lol. Intercom is nice, but I know of a few teams that don't use em, puter, again, not worried about winning as much as just finishing, but that doesn't mean I won't be looking for a used one that someone took out to upgrade. I like steel wheels, if they bend you can bang em back straight. Rally tires, if I find em at $50/ea, I can run those on steelies. Used dspecs should work for a lil while I would think.

Like I said, I'm likely to prove myself wrong, decide I want all the whiz-bang fun stuff, or maybe not even find time to build my own rig all together. We'll see...

Keep in mind.. There is a 'bogie' time at most stage rallies. You'll need to be moving fast enough to be faster than that, or they'll stop you from running.

I'm not sure I'd be able to push my car hard enough on stock suspension + snows to safely be faster than bogie at some of the rallies I've been to.

You also might not make it out of tech on snows (unless maybe its snowdrift...)..

[russellmn]

I have no idea if I could be fast enough to make bogie, also have no idea if snows would be allowed, and no idea how long the suspension may hold up, but it might be fun to find out...

What do the expeienced people here think is the bare minimum parts needed for a first rally?

[HiTempguy]

What do the expeienced people here think is the bare minimum parts needed for a first rally?

We've actually already chimed in.

-oem suspension won't cut it unless on s00per smooth roads (and if it's a Subie, you better be running STi struts)
-I guess an intercom could be considered unnecessary on a tulip rally, but even then, a co-driver can relay valuable intel at any point.
-steel rims are no good unless again, you are on s00per smooth roads. It does you no good to be able to bend steel rims back into shape if you have a flat in the middle of the woods at night
-Eklund (I think?) ran a "new at the time" 08' WRX or STi with some sort of non-rally tire as he had to run 16's. It was "ok". Gravel tire grip is crazy compared to normal tires.

One reason you should consider building the car more than the absolute screaming bare minimum is that rally is not expensive because of the car! Rally is expensive because of event costs and maintenance!

You are going to pay minimum (lets say for ****s and giggles) $500 for an entry fee alone, and that is the cost whether you finish one stage or them all. Then, you factor in fuel, vacation time, broken parts ($50-$100 struts add up quick when you replace them every event, steel rims can only get bent so much), hotel etc. If you DNF for some minor, stupid little thing, ALL of that money is essentially wasted. Trust me, DNF'ing any event for whatever reason is bad enough, but when it's over something so small, it leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

People have done what you want to do before, and it's been documented. It rarely goes well beyond them "maybe" finishing. And why are you racing if you are not "racing"? There is a certain minimum level of expense required to "compete". In my mind, if everything is brand new (minus the car), it's $10k plus whatever car you choose. And $2500 of that is on a 50mm suspension setup.

[kturner]

What do the expeienced people here think is the bare minimum parts needed for a first rally?

If you are just looking to "try it out" I would go and rent a car from someone. Otherwise you should really be thinking about what it takes to get to the second or third rally. It doesn't have to be a ton of $$$ or super trick parts but it does cost a little bit $ and if you are doing it for fun (most of us do) then there is no point in DNFing because of something that you knew ahead of time wasn't up to par. This has been rehashed a thousand times here and on ss.com. Do you want a rally to be challenging or rather it be challenging to rally?

That said, first rally: good safety gear, pre-event preparation; rules, sleep, directions, where you are eating/sleeping, who needs to be where and when, understand how time cards work, basically everything you need to know to participate in the rally outside of turning the wheel and reading notes for both the driver and codriver so you can focus on racing and a reliable car (protect the important parts and make sure it'll pass tech - steel wheels and snows ok - bring spares), be focused on getting to the finish, have fun.

[alosix]

-Eklund (I think?) ran a "new at the time" 08' WRX or STi with some sort of non-rally tire as he had to run 16's. It was "ok". Gravel tire grip is crazy compared to normal tires.
Betting he was using michelin 16" rally tires. I have some of his used ones... :)

[MConte05]

The rally car I bought ran many events on steel wheels and KYB AGX's with Ground Control springs. At a bare minimum, all the safety equipment you need to pass tech, although I honestly would spend the extra money for better safety stuff. I don't think I'll race in a car again without the wings on the headrests, they make a tremendous difference in safety even though they are more expensive.

I am just now upgrading my suspension/engine/trans to be more competitive. But I ran my first event on some used rally wheels I bought well before I even had a car ($500) and the KYB AGX's, a deturboed engine that couldn't get up a slight incline at WOT in 2nd gear, and a failing turbo transmission. And it was still an absolute blast, and we still set some blistering stage times considering the hardware we had to work with.

But when we crashed. I was glad I spent the extra $$$ on the safety equipment. It is amazing how cheap it all seems when you know **** is about go down.

[KevinWelker]

What do the expeienced people here think is the bare minimum parts needed for a first rally?

You absolutely CAN rally with the parts you listed (steelies, non rally tires, stock struts, etc.) however all these parts WILL break quicker than more purpose constructed parts and will end up costing more in repairs and entry fees and tow money of rallys resulting in DNF.

If waiting to get all the "perfect, bitchin" rally pieces keeps you off the stage, then get out there and do it with what you have (within reason) and piece the better stuff on there as you can afford. I've seen too many projects never even get to a stage because the owner blew all their money on pricey parts. That is a bigger shame than going out with an "under prepared" car IMO. Don't drink all the Kool-Aid that is served, be critical about all advice you get (even mine).

I think the mindset of all these fancy bits as the minimum for entry needs to slow down a bit.

I ran my first rally on forester struts with RS springs, legacy alloys with used rally tires, no rally computer and a bone stock driveline. I crashed the car (not because of any parts issue), learned a lot and have a story for a lifetime.

[russellmn]

MConte, safety stuff WILL NOT be compromised on! I WILL shop around for good deals/used, but if it comes down to running cheap junk or the more expensive, but safe, equipment, I'll just have to let some more Moths out of my wallet.

KW, thank you for stating what I was really trying to get at, but failing miserably on my cell phone, in my earlier posts. I have no intention of having my build stretch out for years simply to make sure I have all the "cool guy" parts. I've seen that happen too much in rock crawling, know of one guy that, after FOUR years of building his pro-mod rock crawler this little thing called King of the Hammers came along. Next thing you know, he's torn his buggy all the way down to the chassis, cut out half the tubes, and starts re-doing it for go-fast duty. If he'd finished his in half that time, he could've at least wheeled the thing for a couple years before he tore it apart again.

My intention is to get out on stage for the '13 season. I won't have all the gadgets and good parts yet, but I'll upgrade as I break or have cash/see the need. Sub-frames, control arms, crossmembers, and the cage will all be built by me. The only part of the suspension that won't be "up to par" will possibly be the struts/shocks. Everything else will be WAY overbuilt. (doing it yourself makes it cheap and I should have jigs for GC/GD chassis crossmembers and sub-frames well before I start on my rig)

[acco205]

^ this I like better.

Before it sounded like your goal was simply to cut corners to save money.

I'm literally days away from starting what will eventually culminate into a bad ass open heavy build (I TRIED to buy...but no one likes to respond to emails or return calls apparently..).

My plan of attack is Production class impreza L (EJ18 :kyle:) by prescott this year, open light 2.5L by snow drift '13. Then rock that until I feel im ready to put a giant ass turbo on it.

Why? Because production class is "cheap" and I dont have to worry engine mods, lightening the car, reliability from mods etc so all my money can go to safety gear and actually getting on stage! (by october 2012...)

I look forward to watching your build.

[garyp]

...puter, again, not worried about winning as much as just finishing, but that doesn't mean I won't be looking for a used one that someone took out to upgrade.


With a little imagination, I see no reason why an inexpensive bicycle odometer/computer could not be made to work as a get-me-by.

[russellmn]

I should probably avoid posting potentially controversial statements while I'm at work or from my cell. (usually pretty tired at work, night shift, and I HATE typing out long posts on my phone)

I haven't looked too closely at production... maybe I should??? I've been thinking OL this whole time, but haven't really considered much else. Though a G2 civic could be fun/cheap (ish)...

[thewizard]

Production class is not always cheap. Open classes could be cheaper as there is no limitations what parts could be used. (Ex: you can use a non stock/aftermarket turbo you found on ebay or whatever) To be competitive in open classes could be expensive but it has been proven several times that the more important aspect is the driver. Also, production class competition has declined drastically in the last few years. Its a good class if you wanna brag about winning trophies.

DOM tubing+Steel ~ 500
Seats ~ 700
Harnesses ~150
Tires (used) ~200
Skid plates ~200
Intercom w/headset ~150
First Aid/Spill Kit/Triangles/Roll Cage Padding ~100
Auxiliary lights/Co-driver light ~100

Just the bare minimum will cost you over 2K without your personal safety gear and the donor vehicle. Add ~1K for (Hans/Suit/Helmet). The car has to be registered and insured with higher coverage required by the sanctioning body so add a few hundred for that as well. (realistically speaking all above will cost you more) Not saying it cant be done but after spending all that money and effort would you chance losing the additional 2K you will be spending for the weekend? (Entry fees, hotel, gas, food etc... )

For all those starting out, here is a tip that will save you a whole lot of money:
If the car ain't ready, it aint ready. Make sure the car is ready several weeks ahead of time (if possible, before you send the entry in) I along with friends have lost lots of money trying to pull miracles the last minute.

BTW Paul E. did run snow tires at least the first event in the STI as he was running in Production GT and could not get 16 rally tires in time.

[thewizard]

BTW If your co-driver is good with distances and directions you could easily get away with not running a rally computer. I to this date never had a working rally computer in a car I drove or co-drove. It is nice to have one however!

[acco205]

I should probably avoid posting potentially controversial statements while I'm at work or from my cell. (usually pretty tired at work, night shift, and I HATE typing out long posts on my phone)

I haven't looked too closely at production... maybe I should??? I've been thinking OL this whole time, but haven't really considered much else. Though a G2 civic could be fun/cheap (ish)...

It has its ups and downs...

production class is designed to be cheap, but by design has problems with staying cheap.

Basically for straight production class you have to be low displacement, non turbo and the base car must be valued at less than $4000. There is also PGT and super production classes for higher displacement and more expensive cars.

basically your mods are limited to upgraded suspension, cage, seats, computer, underbody protection and lights, as well as rerouting fuel lines, etc. You cant modify the dash, remove door cards, remove material or excess bracing from the doors, roof or floorpan, all bodywork must be stock, the engine must be stock to the first cat, suspension mounting points must be stock, brakes must be stock...you get the picture...

In my case since my base car is 1.8L and I will not likely have the time and money to build and install a modded 2.5, running this class for my first rally makes sense as the ONLY things I need to spend money on are those also required by every other class. (and less face it, that 1.8 aint gonna keep up in OL)

I have zero intentions of remaining in that class because when parts break you must replace them with stock, for that year, model and trim. And thats where things start to get expensive. You also have to worry about proving something is stock, show documentation etc. It can get tedious and expensive. Not to mention its not a very competitive field (you may end up by yourself...and where is then fun in that?)

You should check out Aarons build (the guy who runs this site). Its stickied in the member journals. He built up a very nice PGT class 2.5RS. Not exactly bare minimum like what youre looking to do, but a good baseline on what a competitive car in that class looks like (and the amount of work that went into it!). An OL car (at "completion." this is by no means required to run OL) would have all that work + engine/trans/bodywork/etc.

In fact you should look through ALL of them. Lots of good info and ideas in there and it'll either get you pumped for the build or convince you to buy something prebuilt to get on stage.

Long story short, do your research first. Read every rule book available, look at cars, go to rallies, read the rules again, look at more cars, read the rules, go to more rallies, read the rules, then start planning your build.

Wouldnt hurt to read the rules over a few times either. (seriously, if you cant recite them word for word you havnt read them enough.)

Pick the class that best plays into your budget, timeline and goals. For me that is looking like production for my first race. In a few months that may change...we shall see...

Mike

[kturner]

Basically for straight production class you have to be low displacement, non turbo and the base car must be valued at less than $4000. There is also PGT and super production classes for higher displacement and more expensive cars.

Let's be clear. You are talking about the California Series Production class and not the normal NASA or RA stock/production classes.

If you don't have issues making a reasonable budget and sticking to it avoid production class altogether. Most regions have zero to none P cars and a handful of PGT. Any class can be cheap as long you can keep your credit card in your wallet, no one is forcing you to spend money. Why waste your time worrying about finding the period correct door handle that you just smashed up?

[MConte05]

BTW If your co-driver is good with distances and directions you could easily get away with not running a rally computer. I to this date never had a working rally computer in a car I drove or co-drove. It is nice to have one however!

Very true. I have not had a single rally where the rally computer worked flawlessly (Well, except for when I drove). The computer either just started acting up, lost a sensor, or the car just didn't have one.

[alosix]

Let's be clear. You are talking about the California Series Production class and not the normal NASA or RA stock/production classes.

If you don't have issues making a reasonable budget and sticking to it avoid production class altogether. Most regions have zero to none P cars and a handful of PGT. Any class can be cheap as long you can keep your credit card in your wallet, no one is forcing you to spend money. Why waste your time worrying about finding the period correct door handle that you just smashed up?

I was about to say something about that looking like CRS P-stock.. That class is kinda nutty with what it allows and doesn't compared to the nasa/ra classes. Really is meant to be a budget class.

I've found a targeted pgt build for a 02 WRX is keeping me from having a crazy budget for the initial rally. I still have 2 mods I have to remove, but they actually put me in a cheaper position for spares (TD04s and steel front arms). In all honestly, this will probably end up an open class car with a 32mm restrictor on it until I trust myself with the 34mm. There are enough Nasa rallies in tow distance for me to get the coeffs needed for RA.

The trick for P/PGT is picking a car that doesn't need much done to it to finish a rally and has lots of junk yard support. For getting out there on a budget, G2/OL are probably the classes that you are looking for.


To the OP.. where are you from anyway? MN? You have at least rallyx'ed right?

[russellmn]

Thanks for all the advice guys.

Alosix, I've done one rallyx a few years ago, I'm coming over from jeep land, rock crawling/racing mostly. Yes, I'm from mn. This season I'll be helping izzysti on his crew when I'm not building. Probably will vill volunteer at one or two rallies also.

[alosix]

Thanks for all the advice guys.

Alosix, I've done one rallyx a few years ago, I'm coming over from jeep land, rock crawling/racing mostly. Yes, I'm from mn. This season I'll be helping izzysti on his crew when I'm not building. Probably will vill volunteer at one or two rallies also.

Ah.. wheelin in MN.. It has been a while. last time I was out there I drove to 2 days straight.. crashed in the ORO shop for a few hours then followed Steve up to Gilbert for a C4C event. Right now I'm cleaning up my TJ to head down to do traffic duty @ KOH.

The Zip Tie guys (is that izzy?) are also out of there.

So, do you currently have a car to work with?

[russellmn]

I've been at every C4C since '06. Good times. You should come up again sometime! We raised something like $60k last year!!!

Have fun at KOH, I still haven't made it down there for that, who knows if I will...


Yeah, Izzy is the 858 car with Zip Tie.

And no car to start building yet, just my dd WRX that's getting a new motor atm...

[acco205]

Let's be clear. You are talking about the California Series Production class and not the normal NASA or RA stock/production classes.

If you don't have issues making a reasonable budget and sticking to it avoid production class altogether. Most regions have zero to none P cars and a handful of PGT. Any class can be cheap as long you can keep your credit card in your wallet, no one is forcing you to spend money. Why waste your time worrying about finding the period correct door handle that you just smashed up?


You are correct, those are the CRS P class rules. I am in no way saying this is the best option for everyone, nor is it the only or best way to save money. In fact I was only discussing P class as it applies to me (hence CRS), as it had come up in the conversation.

Furthermore, I explained that the only reason I see behind running production class is for rally number 1. And only because (in my case) the car will likely have nothing but safety gear added and with the 1.8 (at high altitude at that) wont be keeping up with the OL class. If i'm running under budget and ahead of schedule (yeah...right...) I will be swapping it out for something with a bit more oomph and running OL.

If you are intentionally keeping your car in a production class beyond its first or second race you're probably on drugs, because as you said, who wants to spend all their time trying to find a period door handle?

[kturner]

^^^ agree but why even bother with the rules and proving and everything else and just start in the class you know you want to be in (if rules allow) and build as time/money/plans work out. That way you can make some of the cheap / free improvements from day one start from the back of the pack and work your way forward as you and the car progress and get better. Or maybe you'll get lucky and everyone else will DNF.

Back to costs; a good group 2 shell should cost no more than $1000 preferably free.

[A1337STI]

With a little imagination, I see no reason why an inexpensive bicycle odometer/computer could not be made to work as a get-me-by.

There was a team at Prescott that did exactly that. They found 2 different upper speed limits for the odometers. (i want to say 60 and 120 ? ) they did use the higher speed ones. they installed one on each side of the car so they had total and split (trip)

[A1337STI]

I've found a targeted pgt build for a 02 WRX is keeping me from having a crazy budget for the initial rally. I still have 2 mods I have to remove, but they actually put me in a cheaper position for spares (TD04s and steel front arms). In all honestly, this will probably end up an open class car with a 32mm restrictor on it until I trust myself with the 34mm. There are enough Nasa rallies in tow distance for me to get the coeffs needed for RA.


Well you can run in Nasa Stock Heavy, (enter as production) with your PGT build. then later you can go 34mm restrictor and free brakes and still be nasa stock heavy (RA Super production) :eyebrows: I'm going to want competitors!

BTW Depending on the car you choose , and what's in your local pick n pulls. production Can very well be the cheapest class.

*Hint I've done 18 rallies as a production competitor*

I did my first rally in a stock car with a roll cage. :shock: no intercom, we did have a rally odo ($200?) stock shocks, stock motor, stock exhaust , stock Rims (steel) with new rally tires on them.

and you know what? It was a lot of fun. LOTS. i was pretty slow , and didn't speed up until i got off the stock suspension.

Due to my local area (carson , Reno , Tahoe) always having 4-10 imprezas (and many legacies) i could always find a replacement stock part. and due to subaru not changing parts very often. it was not hard to find the correct part numbers.

What's your car of choice? hows your local pick N Pulls ? You could easily be in a situation where soon as something breaks, an open class is cheaper. But that's not a given. if you own 2 honda civics of the same year , production will be cheap...

Fun.. what adds more fun to the event for you?? is there a certain mod that is a MUST for you? (open ?) Is winning your class important (go production) Do you need a big field that show up on the monitor as in your class ? (Open) Or do you get a big kick out of beating the higher classed cars? (go production)

Be wary of any answers that come before asking you questions... there is no 1 size fits all as to "what car/ what class is best for me"

for me personally i love racking up the wins & trophies. i have a lot of mechanic friends, friends with the same year subaru, and same model & trim level cars in our local pick n pulls, and dismantlers. I had a small budget and a huge drive (to rally, and drive in general) to me that all added up for a production build. I went true production for a while.

Then by chance i got an awd transmission... so i looked at the CRS rules for their GT Stock class.. (any part off that body style is legal) and by obeying their ruleset , I'll be eligible for Open Lite.

I swapped a stock rs2.5 into a 93 shell, threw in Delta cams (street grind) and a rear lsd out of a wrx. and I was able drive faster than any other OL driver in the region (south west) and faster than the OL champion of the north west as well.

Don't be afraid of production/stock classes.

the only thing to fear is getting yourself into a situation where the upkeep / replacement parts are too expensive!!!

[russellmn]

I'll most likely end up in OL. I just plain like my AWD too much. I think one thing that I'll do differently than most OL builds I see is that I'll build it to be OL, not a stepping stone to open.

So, when I do build a new engine, it'll be a high compression N/A motor that'll make decent power. Not a turbo motor without the whizzer on it. Really thinking GC chassis, you can get beaters for not too much money. I'd likely have to ballast the hell out of it to get up to weight. An older RX would be cool as **** for a rally car, but finding parts might be interesting... can get decent cars for a pretty good price though.

Like I said earlier, this is still nearly (or at least) a year out, so I have lots of time to come up with a game plan, scrounge for cheap parts, etc...

[HiTempguy]

Just thought I'd point this out:

http://www.specialstage.com/classifieds/show-ad/?id=387

That is a good frickin' deal! Bring them your $1000 2.2/2.5 Subie that's in ok shape, and they do all of the work for you (pulling interior/dash for instance)? Wow!

*I am in no way associated with them, just thought I'd post it up

[alosix]

Just thought I'd point this out:

http://www.specialstage.com/classifieds/show-ad/?id=387

That is a good frickin' deal! Bring them your $1000 2.2/2.5 Subie that's in ok shape, and they do all of the work for you (pulling interior/dash for instance)? Wow!

*I am in no way associated with them, just thought I'd post it up

And that's right at the $10k mark quoted earlier in the thread. Honestly.. $9k seems about right for that level of car prep and parts, especially if you're paying for the labor. Nice to see it laid out like that.

[russellmn]

^^^ that's a smokin good price for paying labor and parts, etc... if you're paying someone else to build a car for you, $10k is definitely a GREAT deal!

[HiTempguy]

^^^ that's a smokin good price for paying labor and parts, etc... if you're paying someone else to build a car for you, $10k is definitely a GREAT deal!

Yes, to clarify, I wasn't pointing out that YOU should consider it. Just thought I'd add it as a data point to this entire thread. :)

[russellmn]

Well, I think I've found my shell. '05 STi shell. Needs a roof skin and driver's quarter panel. Same person has a WRX that is just about completely hammered but has a quarter that'll work. Wiring harness and ECU from an 02 RS. Bugeye front clip, who knows what else I'll grab off of 'em. He told me $300 for the shell with all 4 doors and title. Everything else negotiable and should be pretty cheap. We'll see how my adventure goes. :D I'll start a build thread when I start actually working on it, most likely next winter.

[alosix]

that sounds like one hell of a project, good luck man.

[russellmn]

We'll see how it goes... it's probably the wrong way to start to go for a budget build. I'm guessing all the little things will nickel and dime me to death. On the other hand, I can start with the chassis already stripped, get everything seam welded, weld in the cage, and then start piecing parts together for the rest of it.

I've got a couple engines layin around, trans isn't too hard to come by, the guy I'm getting the shell from has most of the parts to make it a roller... I'll probably blow by $4k pretty early I think, but we'll see...

[alosix]

We'll see how it goes... it's probably the wrong way to start to go for a budget build. I'm guessing all the little things will nickel and dime me to death. On the other hand, I can start with the chassis already stripped, get everything seam welded, weld in the cage, and then start piecing parts together for the rest of it.

I've got a couple engines layin around, trans isn't too hard to come by, the guy I'm getting the shell from has most of the parts to make it a roller... I'll probably blow by $4k pretty early I think, but we'll see...

I like the stripped shell to start with.. Glad you got a title as well.

I'd probably hunt for a wrecked RS 2.5 to have whole. MN is pretty chill with emissions right? Half of my reasoning on PGT is to keep the CA smog man at bay.

[russellmn]

MN has NO emissions testing!!!!! :FU: We'll see how things go, I'll likely haul the shell home this spring, most likely won't get much done to it 'til late fall/winter though. Maybe/probably find time to seam weld it, maybe cage it also, we'll see how business goes (I run a small fab shop on the side to help pay for my hobbies. Back Road Customs). If it's slow late this spring (May/early June) I'll likely get the cage tossed in it, Mid june I start building the new place out at the farm, so that'll kill ALL progress on any rig 'til October earliest.

[acco205]

...most likely next winter.

awwww.... :-(

I was looking forward to watching this progress...like...now...lol


On a different note, picked up my car last night. Already had the rear brakes swapped with an RS so it looks like I'll be in OL for Prescott!

[russellmn]

We've REALLY taken this thread off topic, eh? lol Turned into a "this is what I plan to do" thread instead of a "this is what it cost me to do" thread that was originally intended.

ACCO205, sorry, but I just don't have time right now to start the build. If I get a little bit done on it this spring yet, I'll post a build thread and get it started, but I imagine people will see the start and then wonder WTF happened to the build for the next 6 months following it when I don't do ANYTHING. :D

[acco205]

Youre right...

to bump it back on topic, my budget is looking just shy of 10K to get her stage ready by october.

sooo....15K at least...

[UP2MTNS]

Like I said earlier, this is still nearly (or at least) a year out, so I have lots of time to come up with a game plan, scrounge for cheap parts, etc...


this is key to having a nice build cheaply....start EARLY, and know what you want, even if you don't need it right away, and always be actively searching for deals.

I didn't need a rally computer when I bought mine, but I got a nice Brantz for $170 off special stage. I actually ran 3 events before I finally mounted it, but for $170, it was a great deal.

Same with my Peltor...was borrowing one at the time, and found an FMT200 (retails for $800) for only $200 on ebay.


I just picked up a barely used AIM Pista (retails for $2K) for $1,300 on ebay (it was in a Porsche Cup car....sweeeeet). hell, I'll be able to sell it for at least that amount when i'm done with it or if I wreck the car.


Know the 'nice bits' list and while you're taking X months to build the car, always keep an eye out for good deals on here, on nasioc, on ebay, etc.

[russellmn]

I just picked up a barely used AIM Pista (retails for $2K) for $1,300 on ebay (it was in a Porsche Cup car....sweeeeet). hell, I'll be able to sell it for at least that amount when i'm done with it or if I wreck the car.

What the hell is this??? Off to Google. :?

edit: found it. NICE digital dash/data logging setup!

[alosix]

What the hell is this??? Off to Google. :?

Its some bling dash/data logger thingy. It'll help him figured out when he's burked it a little easier :)

[acco205]

^ so many different kinds of jealous you dont even know.

Sound advise though, John. Just because you dont need part X for another few months doesnt mean you shouldnt look. Some things there are deals on all the time; harder to find stuff you never know when it will come up. in 4 months when youre ready to install your fancy-pants, ex porsche cup, digital dash and data logger there may be none in sight except for new.

Buying last years model is always a good way to save too if you want new stuff (on most stuff that doesnt expire)

Shoes and race suits are two places this could work as the "old style" gets clearanced out.

If can work with bits like helmets and harnesses too, but you have to play your cards a little smarter.

for example, I bought my current helmet at the end of 2010, just as bell started selling all the SA10 stuff. Got my SA05 for 50% off and I've still got many years before I'll need to replace it since its used primarily for track, autoX, rallyX and karting (its full faced and I dont stage rally...yet..)

[UP2MTNS]

Its some bling dash/data logger thingy. It'll help him figured out when he's burked it a little easier :)


huh? I was told it would drive the car for me....

[russellmn]

huh? I was told it would drive the car for me....


It'll drive the car for ya, all you gotta do is hit the gas and shift, don't worry about the steering wheel, the bling dash will turn it for ya! :rofl:

[zeeto]

What are some good sites to check for rally cars for sale? I've been checking specialstages, craigslist, and random subaru sites, but it seems like everything I'm finding is on the other side of the country or turbo/AWD.
I keep going back and forth on build/buy, and would like to buy a beginner one to start with, but I'm having a hard time finding anything.

[lminette]

Specialstage.com is pretty much it.

[acco205]

Going to local rallies and talking to other people in the community is always a good way. Some times you can find something for sale that isnt actually listed anywhere just by talking to people.

I know of a few cars for sale around here but sadly that falls into the "other side of the country" problem.

you can also try racecarclassifieds but i've never found anything local/cheap through there. SS and this site usually turn up the largest number of results.

[alosix]

What are some good sites to check for rally cars for sale? I've been checking specialstages, craigslist, and random subaru sites, but it seems like everything I'm finding is on the other side of the country or turbo/AWD.
I keep going back and forth on build/buy, and would like to buy a beginner one to start with, but I'm having a hard time finding anything.

Yeah. I've found that 2wd NA 'cheap' starter car that everyone tells you to go buy to be a bit of myth/urban legend.

[ShadowImg]

Yeah. I've found that 2wd NA 'cheap' starter car that everyone tells you to go buy to be a bit of myth/urban legend.

I see 4-5 of them under 10k on specialstage right now?

[acco205]

Yeah. I've found that 2wd NA 'cheap' starter car that everyone tells you to go buy to be a bit of myth/urban legend.


^^what he said. Just because there aren't any in your area doesnt mean they dont exist.

You may have to travel and ship it. Its expensive. But then did you really expect rally to be cheap?

[zeeto]

Specialstage.com is pretty much it.That's what I was afraid of.

Going to local rallies and talking to other people in the community is always a good way. Some times you can find something for sale that isnt actually listed anywhere just by talking to people.
I was planning to do that, just won't be getting to another event until the RNY one in April.

Yeah. I've found that 2wd NA 'cheap' starter car that everyone tells you to go buy to be a bit of myth/urban legend.There's a VW on SS for $6500, and a couple others in Southern CA.

^^what he said. Just because there aren't any in your area doesnt mean they dont exist.

You may have to travel and ship it. Its expensive. But then did you really expect rally to be cheap?This is where I go back and forth on build/buy. After shipping, or driving out then towing back, it seems if I spend another couple grand I could build one that I want to start with. Honestly I'd rather start with a NA/AWD Subie but if I find a good deal on a prebuilt FWD, I'll still jump on it.

I'm kind of at the point, where I need to just decide to wait or go ahead and start building. That's why I was hoping there was some hidden site of old rally cars. :rofl: My plan was running my first event at STPR in June, but I may push back to BRS in September.

[acco205]

June is REAAAAALLY close if youre trying to build. Expect AT LEAST a month or two just to get into a good shop to have a cage built.

I had the same debate you were having. After I tried to but 3 cars (1 sold, the other two I was having a hard time get ahold of the seller and just got impatient and bought something else) I bought a 1.8L GC AWD and am currently busting my ass to get it rally ready by Prescott in october (and even that might be tough).

You're definitely right, by the time you buy and ship everything you could be pretty close to the cost of a basic build, but factor in time and that many things outside the scope of a "basic build" have likely been done to the car (full underbody, computer, upgraded parts etc)

Just something to consider.

[alosix]

I stand corrected about the availability, there do seem to be a few decent choices currently.

Guess it doesn't help that I've been looking for something more late modelish and ODBII if possible. Really not much of a VW fan.. but still there actually are a few decent ones currently.

I'd be curious if most would live through a smog check in this state though. Guessing the 1 or 2 from CA should..

[REDrum]

Special Stage, Rally Anarchy, Nasioc, and word of mouth are about it... Took me 3 years to find the right rally for me.

[zeeto]

June is REAAAAALLY close if youre trying to build. Expect AT LEAST a month or two just to get into a good shop to have a cage built.

I had the same debate you were having. After I tried to but 3 cars (1 sold, the other two I was having a hard time get ahold of the seller and just got impatient and bought something else) I bought a 1.8L GC AWD and am currently busting my ass to get it rally ready by Prescott in october (and even that might be tough).

You're definitely right, by the time you buy and ship everything you could be pretty close to the cost of a basic build, but factor in time and that many things outside the scope of a "basic build" have likely been done to the car (full underbody, computer, upgraded parts etc)

Just something to consider.Thanks, yeah I know it might be pushing it, more realistic would probably be BRS or IRNY in Sept/Oct.
I definitely have no intentions of rushing things, just to make it though. I learned that the hard way with my buggy, I rushed to get it done for an event and forgot I had only tacked a crossmember mount on the tail of my tcase. Cracked tranny, tcase, and a few blown u-joints :rofl:. If it would take too long to get into a cage builder, I'm entirely confident in doing that myself.

I'm still hoping I can fall into a prebuilt one, for my first one.

[REDrum]

I'm still hoping I can fall into a prebuilt one, for my first one.

I have a buddy who is about to sell a full log booked 96 legacy open light rally car, its ready to rock/rally, w/ semi built engine. Asking $8K In central Mass. PM if you have interest. It will not last long....

[acco205]

I'm entirely confident in doing that myself.


Me too! but that doesnt mean your local scrutineer is. I've seen lots of people build their own cages only to have them fail (lots of them end up selling the shell as "it will pass logbook I swear!" after it failed. I know this cause I went and looked at them...)

I dont know how good your skills are but its still advisable that you talk to your scrutineer BEFORE you start building. If nothing else they will give you some pointers on making a solid, well designed cage.

Mine is going to get caged next week. stoked!

[granthughes]

Open Light is the only really logical rally car for a Subaru. The costs skyrocket when we start talking about Open Class, unless you happen to not have a competitive side to yourself. Otherwise the costs will start to skyrocket as you and your competitors find yourselves trying to buy that last bit of the edge.
A great example of this occurred in 2007ish here in Colorado. There were four Open Class Subarus all competing against one another. One team let it be known that they had just installed the Rocket Rally Diff Computer and Gravel diff map and that it was amazing in BOTH of their cars. Suddenly the other two cars had to do the same thing if they wanted to remain competitive. One of the people was talking about it just a few weeks ago at a local meeting. He started out with a GC Impreza with a Leg Turbo swap. Then came better turbos, built bottom ends, different heads, six speed swaps, better engine management and more dyno time, better diffs, diff controllers, new STI shells, etc. He basically said they started with a fun cheap car but in order to remain competitive they ended up with a car that cost $40k per year just to keep competitive and continue to maintain. They ended up selling the car. Of those four competitors involved in the spending war, only one remains active. Two are gone for good, though one could be convinced to build an Open Light car.
Even SP is expensive. The top teams are replacing short blocks regularly to run at the top. At least three per season. Matthew Johnson said in his PGT WRX he had to bring at least 2 spare 5 speed gearboxes to each event. He also mentioned that the first gearbox that was in the car lasted five events. It wasn't until he was running at the top that he started grenading them regularly. Pat Moro was complaining about SP a few years back because he was going through at least one set of pads and rotors per event and calipers every other event. As you get more competitive, the maintenance costs also skyrocket.

There are plenty of people with Open Light cars that will attest that you can have a super amount of fun in one of these cars. You can get stage ready for under $10k to start. The upgrade paths are much easier and cheaper. High spending has much smaller returns. The competition is essentially leveled and the annual maintenance is highly reduced.

Here's an example of a customer car I am working on.
Caged and driveable 95 2 door with 2.2 bottom end swap. I'm selling the caged car with a full FIA cage and seat brackets for $3k.
JVAB suspension - $2200
OMP TRS seats and brackets X 2 - $800
GForce FIA belts X 2 - $300
Porterfield Brake Pads - $300
Two fire extinguishers with brackets - $50
Spill Kit - $30
Medical Kit - $80

That's under $7k. He'll need to find some gravel tires and source some Leggy alloys, Forester steelies, or proper gravel wheels and will probably eventually want to do some things like intake, exhaust, clutch, diffs, etc but he can go do an event on the car as it sits and upgrade other things over time.

[REDrum]

Open Light is the only really logical rally car for a Subaru

While I am a big cheerleader for Open Light class, and inititaed discussion about forming it with JB back in 2006, I do not agreed with your position in your post above.

OL, by design is a regional class. You are making a comparison of it against the two top national drivers in their time; Matt in PGT and Pat in SP. Others running national class PGT have similar cost experiences too (Eric Langbein and Tim Pennesack)

I can build a 180whp NA engine for OL that, given a high performing national class (seed 2) driver, will eat up rotors/pad and bust gears just like in PGT.

And vice versa, for regional PGT. I have 14 events on my PGT stock gear box w/ 200whp/245wtq run a set of pads every other event. Hi performing (national class) drivers will push the limits of whatever they are sitting in. Regional, well, in my experience, tend to have less of a budget and more mechanical sympathy. Thus IMO its more the driver than the platform.

Again, I'm a big fan of OL, and think it is a huge success element for grassroots rally, I just don't think its the only logical option for the Subaru platform; regional or national class.

PAX

[HiTempguy]

And vice versa, for regional PGT. I have 14 events on my PGT stock gear box w/ 200whp/245wtq run a set of pads every other event. Hi performing (national class) drivers will push the limits of whatever they are sitting in. Regional, well, in my experience, tend to have less of a budget and more mechanical sympathy. Thus IMO its more the driver than the platform.


Only transmission we grenaded in our PGT WRX in 2008-2009-2010 was at PFR (after 5 events or more on it). Almost 30 events in those three seasons. After that, the tranny started getting swapped out/rebuilt every three events but we were putting in a serious effort. Only ran outside the top 10 nationally maybe 3 times in all of those events and were winning regionals/podiums. And the driver was NOT easy on trannies, dear god :muhaha:

So I agree. Depending on how hard you push your equipment is how much money you'll be putting into maintenance/destroyed parts.

[alosix]

Only transmission we grenaded in our PGT WRX in 2008-2009-2010 was at PFR (after 5 events or more on it). Almost 30 events in those three seasons. After that, the tranny started getting swapped out/rebuilt every three events but we were putting in a serious effort. Only ran outside the top 10 nationally maybe 3 times in all of those events and were winning regionals/podiums. And the driver was NOT easy on trannies, dear god :muhaha:

So I agree. Depending on how hard you push your equipment is how much money you'll be putting into maintenance/destroyed parts.

What parts are you guys swapping during a refresh and what went when it died? I'm targeting PGT as well. OL and SP are also possibilities depending on the budget and the luck.

Nice to see the anarchy invasion...

[granthughes]

Big fan of OL, and think it is a huge success element for grassroots rally, I just don't think its the only logical option for the Subaru platform; regional or national class.

There's a few people that it's not logical for. If you own a Subaru dealership for example. :)
Running the National championship is not logical for any privateer that doesn't own a company that directly benefits from their involvement so... :) Fun, yes. Logical, no. :)