Wagon Suspension time!! Hmmm...W hat size strut spacers?

[fattie92]

Well my stock struts have finally completely puked on me. I don't blame them, 50k and a good 20 rallyX races id be a bit tired to! Not to mention I tow a good amount of crap when we go race and camping... Anyways...... I am getting KYB GR-2's for my strut replacements and some STi sedan take off springs for some better spring rates. The springs will give me about a half inch drop, and then a little bit of sag in the rear due to the wagons heavy butt. I do not want the car to be much lower at all then it already is (stock)... I have a friend that is a machinist and is willing to make me strut spacers for the front and rear to bring it back up to where I want it and still retain the sweet spring rates. The rear should get approximately a 1/4" of sag plus the 1/2" drop. So we are looking at approximately 3/4" in the rear. I think I will be happy with a 1/2" aluminum spacer in the rear. Now for the front... Should I get 1/4" spacers?? I want to lift it slightly to get some height back, but I don't want the front and rear to be far off from each other. I was thinking 1/2" spacers all around, but I think that would push the front end up to high....

[williaty]

The 1/4" saggy butt shims will be enough to tip you slightly raked forwards.

When I put the STi sedan springs on my wagon, the front didn't drop at all and the rear dropped 1/8" of an inch.

BTW, the GR-2s WON'T have enough balls for the STi springs. GR-2s are barely stiffer than stock. You need to be looking at Ohlins or Tokico D-Specs.

[fattie92]

BTW, the GR-2s WON'T have enough balls for the STi springs. GR-2s are barely stiffer than stock. You need to be looking at Ohlins or Tokico D-Specs.

Why do you say that? I have read that the GR-2's are perfect for the Prodrive springs, Wagon Pinks, and Sti take-offs.

Maybe I will start with the 1/4" in the rear and go from there.

[williaty]

A lot of people don't know what the hell they're talking about when it comes to suspension. As proof of this, the Prodrives and the Take-offs/pinks have a 50lbf/in, or more then 25%, difference in front spring rate. A damper that works for one isn't going to work for the other unless it's adjustable. The GR-2's are a stock-replacement damper. They're going to be in the ballpark for the Prodrives, which are only slightly stiffer than stock, but not close to enough damping for anything stiffer.

[fattie92]

What struts did Subaru design the wagon Pinks for?

[williaty]

That's a source of much argument.

Obviously, given the fact that they're the same rate as the USDM STi/Spec C springs, the totally correct answer is USDM STi struts or Spec C struts. However, SoA advertises them as upgrades for the WRX. Relying, I think, on the fact that most people can't tell or have never felt the difference between proper damping and not-quite-right damping.

As a datapoint, I have the USDM STi take off springs on Tokico D-Specs. Set to the proper damping, the car handles well, rides well, and has no unnecessary body movement. Turned down to the level of the GR-2s or OEM WRX dampers, the ride is ****, the handing goes to hell, and the car wallows all over the place, but I've had two people tell me they thought it was amazingly good at that setting. They changed their minds when I turned the damping back up where it belongs.

[fattie92]

:pissed: ... Why cant there be more strut options for the wagon???

[williaty]

Get sedan struts and work out the issues, or get sedan control arms. I feel your pain though. However, it is worse for me being an NA wagon, which means NOTHING fits.

[MetalNeverDies]

Get sedan struts and work out the issues, or get sedan control arms. I feel your pain though. However, it is worse for me being an NA wagon, which means NOTHING fits.
so very true. its super frustrating finding mods for my wagon

[fattie92]

Well I was going to get the AGX's but I really didn't want to deal with the loss of negative camber. Some were saying that I could get a set of GC fronts but I can not find anything to confirm that is the better route to go for the camber issue. I do not want to spend the money on camber plates. Don't feel like swapping control arms.. And I really really hate the idea of running two camber bolts on a corner. Heck, I don't even know if the extra camber bolt will correct it enough.

[fattie92]

OK, I have convinced myself to not do this completely half assed. I found someone that will sell me there Cusco front camber plates for $100. So I think I will get them, and then get the Tociko D-Specs with the STi springs. My only question now is, how much of a lowering effect will I get with the Cusco plates if any?




EDIT... NVM, I found that they raise it 3/8" !!! :headbang:

[williaty]

OK, I have convinced myself to not do this completely half assed. I found someone that will sell me there Cusco front camber plates for $100. So I think I will get them, and then get the Tociko D-Specs with the STi springs. My only question now is, how much of a lowering effect will I get with the Cusco plates if any?




EDIT... NVM, I found that they raise it 3/8" !!! :headbang:
While at $100 the Cuscos are a good deal, they don't use the world's greatest bearing. You should view them as a temporary solution that WILL wear out.

[fattie92]

Hmmm... Well I plan on doing some searching for used ones before I pull the trigger on these.

[fattie92]

Any recommendations on where to get the Tociko's? Best I can find so far is ebay.

[lorenkb]

TIC:

http://www.turninconcepts.com/index.php?cPath=1_9_7_480_490_509_1064

It looks like they drop ship the d-specs.

[williaty]

^^^^
Beat me to it. I always recommend TiC.

[fattie92]

Yes TiC FTW!! I just found that they sell it a few min ago. I like that I can get everything I need there such as the saggy butt shims, and the spacers for the rear. Free Shipping is always a plus even if its drop shipped.

Anyone know if I need special nuts for the Cusco plates? I can not find anything regarding that. I know KYB's need one, and there are special nuts for the Whiteline's.....

Also I was reading about the rear clunking from the D-Specs. Anyone ever find a solution to that? Or is it one of them things you just have to live with?

[williaty]

1) Check with Clint about compatibility between the Cusco plates and the D-Specs. It's not a given that it will work.
2) For me, the solution to the clunking was to go back to the stock strut mounts rather than the Group N ones.

[fattie92]

Emailed TiC...
"Unfortunately the size of the thread pitch is incompatible between the
two, so no, the Cuscos will not work with the D-Specs."

Damn..... Looks like I need to find another set of camber plates to use.

[williaty]

I have the Whiteline Max-C plates. Go with the RCEs.

[fattie92]

I have the Whiteline Max-C plates. Go with the RCEs.

Dont like the Whitelines?

This is starting to piss me off.. I was not looking at spending so much money on this stuff. I am only looking to run -1.3 or so of camber up front. I am almost tempted to try 2 camber bolts just to save $300. I really didnt want to do that though.

[williaty]

I've got the doubled up camber bolts as well. They'll get you the camber you want, but a plate with a spherical bearing in it makes the car feel SO much better.

It's not that I dislike the Max-Cs, it's just that they have some... issues. To their credit, WL is working closely with those of us having problems and bending over backwards to make us happy. However, I'm uncomfortable recommending products to people that aren't 100%.

[fattie92]

KYB's and Tokico's run different tread pitch?

I was wondering if it would be possible to make the TiC nut for the whitleines work with the Cusco's. The only thing that can be different in the nut that I can think of would be the overall outer diameter where it goes into the bearing. Hell, that would be easy to mill down. That is IF the TiC nut is larger then the Cusco's.

[williaty]

KYB's and Tokico's run different tread pitch?
The AGX and D-Specs run a non-stock thread size and pitch. All other struts run the stock thread size and pitch.

[fattie92]

For giggles, what do you think about the DMS 40mm coilovers?

[williaty]

I know some of the DMS stuff is very good, and some of the DMS stuff requires a lot of TLC to keep it working. I have no idea which category the 40s fall into.

[fattie92]

I'm not sure either. Just curious because I found some used ones for less then what I am looking at for the struts. Do I need coilovers? HELL NO! I will throw the idea around though if the price is right for the right setup. My main thing is that I don't want to go more then a .5" drop.

[fattie92]

Hmmm... Not sure how I feel about used struts. I did find this nice little set up.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1529019

I would end up ditching the springs though....

[fattie92]

Screw it. DMS 40's seem like a pain in the ass. And from what I have read they are designed to be used at lower then stock ride height. I dont want used struts either. I am just going to get them new and try 2 camber bolts. I should be happy with that.

[williaty]

Just make sure you follow the instructions, or get the tech to follow the instructions, that I've posted. ALL of the instructions I've ever seen included with camber bolts are wrong.

[lorenkb]

It's not that I dislike the Max-Cs, it's just that they have some... issues. To their credit, WL is working closely with those of us having problems and bending over backwards to make us happy. However, I'm uncomfortable recommending products to people that aren't 100%.

As long as camber plates are being mentioned, the first thing I noticed on RCE's website about their camber plates was the bolded "not for rallycross" disclaimer. Are there any camber plates that have a reputation for standing up to offroad abuse?

[williaty]

I know people have gotten at least 2 seasons on the RCEs with the plates still going strong. I'm sure Whiteline would say the plates aren't for off-road use too.

[fattie92]

Just make sure you follow the instructions, or get the tech to follow the instructions, that I've posted. ALL of the instructions I've ever seen included with camber bolts are wrong.


What are your instructions on camber bolts?

I do EVERYTHING myself.

[lorenkb]

I know people have gotten at least 2 seasons on the RCEs with the plates still going strong. I'm sure Whiteline would say the plates aren't for off-road use too.

I doubt Whitline would endorse such abuse either. It's good to know that despite RCE's disclaimer that they are holding up well. Would you mind discussing how your Whitelines are holding up and the problems you've run into?

[fattie92]

Sweetness! I just scored a set of 05 STi springs for FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!:headbang::eek::guitarist:

[williaty]

I doubt Whitline would endorse such abuse either. It's good to know that despite RCE's disclaimer that they are holding up well. Would you mind discussing how your Whitelines are holding up and the problems you've run into?
As is so often the case, DI didn't inform me of your post. Grrrrr.


Anyway, the low down on the issues is here http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1481890

[Draco-REX]

I'm not happy with my whiteline plates either. I caught one of my stut-top nuts coming loose! Only way that can happen is if the bearing isn't rotating in the plate.

My RCE plates on the other hand are like butter. :D

[Allwheelsdriven.net]

Camber plates are one of those things that are designed for on road/tarmac use, and not for gravel. But people have "made them work". That's the reasoning behind the disclaimers. The best ones I've seen/used are the PDE camber plates, but still not the best for gravel/rally x..

They are all hard mounted, so a huge amount of energy is transferred into the tophat (and camber plate), prematurely wearing out the spherical bearing and loosening things (adjustment bolts) that would stay tight on tarmac. It doesn't matter what kind they are, the principal is the same. Something needs to help the shock load, like a grp N top hat.

To remedy your problem on the rear set up, a good solution are adjustable lateral links. Yes, they are $, but worth it, as they won't wear out like the camber plates will.

Our new rally car will be based on a GF wagon, so we will be R&Ding some wagon specific bits on that.

I'm with all of you guys that there are not nearly enough wagon parts out there.. But there will be more soon.:)

Barrett-
www.allwheelsdriven.net

[williaty]

Actually, what you just said isn't strictly speaking true in all cases. So long as the suspension isn't bottoming out abruptly (coil bind, limit of strut travel, total bumpstop engagement) the peak loads seen by the strut mount, strut tower, and bearing aren't any different regardless of the type of mount and bearing used. However, if there is metal-on-metal (or bump stop "solidification") then the peak loads become MUCH higher. The potential advantage a Group N strut mount has in this situation ISN'T the difference in bearing, it's the fact that the rubber in the mount will compress, lengthening the time domain of the impact and reducing the peak forces.

Run a setup with enough bump travel to prevent reaching maximum travel, and it's going to be fine. Run a setup that reaches a mechanical limit to bump travel on a regular basis, and any strut mount, regardless of construction, will soon fail. The initial RCE Yellow springs, which were capable of coil binding easily, destroyed MANY strut mounts AND spring perches.

[Allwheelsdriven.net]

Actually, what you just said isn't strictly speaking true in all cases. So long as the suspension isn't bottoming out abruptly (coil bind, limit of strut travel, total bumpstop engagement) the peak loads seen by the strut mount, strut tower, and bearing aren't any different regardless of the type of mount and bearing used. However, if there is metal-on-metal (or bump stop "solidification") then the peak loads become MUCH higher. The potential advantage a Group N strut mount has in this situation ISN'T the difference in bearing, it's the fact that the rubber in the mount will compress, lengthening the time domain of the impact and reducing the peak forces.

Run a setup with enough bump travel to prevent reaching maximum travel, and it's going to be fine. Run a setup that reaches a mechanical limit to bump travel on a regular basis, and any strut mount, regardless of construction, will soon fail. The initial RCE Yellow springs, which were capable of coil binding easily, destroyed MANY strut mounts AND spring perches.

What I'm saying is true in the majority of cases on rally cars and rally x cars..I've got many "show and tell" (badly broken) suspension bits that have come from the rigors of stage rally and rally x. The reason these things get destroyed are due to using street parts on gravel. They aren't designed to hold up to constant offroad pounding and impact load generated. They are valved wrong, sprung wrong, and have too little travel for gravel, which hyper extends or over cycles the struts, and sends that load to the camber plate. Look at the DMS 40s as a prime example..Many people have "gotten them to work" on gravel, but they were designed as a tarmac system, and don't hold up long offroad.

So how many different gravel rally suspension systems have you personally dealt with? We've dealt with all types of gravel set ups, and there is a reason why even high end systems such as RSSP, Ohlins, Proflex, DMS 50s, etc use a Group N or stock style top hat and camber washers, and custom hardware for the camber adjustment. It works better and lasts longer on gravel.

Not trying to stir the pot here, just sharing our experiences with gravel suspension systems. :)

Barrett-
www.allwheelsdriven.net (http://www.allwheelsdriven.net)

[williaty]

Of those show and tell pieces, how many were from suspensions that had reached a mechanical limit to travel or been loaded in a direction other than designed? I would bet almost all of them.

From my own rallycross experience, I've never reached the mechanical limit of travel (probably largely due to the fact that SCCA forbids jumps). However, I have reached the mechanical limit of travel many times on tarmac (potholes, etc) in daily driving.

I'm sure in stage rally, where you're hitting holes very fast and also having honest-to-god jumps, you probably reach the mechanical limit of travel of the suspension quite a bit more often. In RX, however, if you're bottoming out, you don't have enough travel. As far as I know, the OP is asking about RX and just general hooning about, not stage rally.

[lorenkb]

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with Barrett, the wagon is ready and waiting :twisted:

[fattie92]

Struts, spacers and anti-sag shims are ordered and on there way! Getting the springs this week!

I can not wait to get rid of these stockers!

williaty, you have a PM.

[williaty]

williaty, you have a PM.
You must have PMed me cake. Cause what you just said is a lie.

:lick:

[fattie92]

Wow you are fast... I PM'ed you after I posted that.

[williaty]

I'm actually just going to make a thread about it. Gimme 90 seconds and it'll be up.

[fattie92]

Awesome! Good call on the thread. I am sure others will benefit from it as well.

[williaty]

HOWTO: Properly Install Aftermarket Camber Bolts in the Front (http://www.dirtyimpreza.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5269)

[fattie92]

...I hate alignments... At least all the bolts will be freshly cleaned and anti-seized when I do mine. I have to align my car with my damn rally wheels/tires on it. The mounts we have will chip the crap out of my spray painted rims...

I am currently running:
Front camber: -1.3
Toe: ZERO
Rear camber: -.5
Toe: ZERO

I think I will bump it back to -1.5 up front and -1.0 in the rear with ZERO toe all around. I am kinda timid to do this again because my last set of tires went to crap FAST running them specs. Then again, they where Kumho's aka the suck...

I am a little worried about my rear strut bar. I made it myself, and didn't leave room for access to the adjusters on the top of the struts. Looks like I might have to pitch it or redesign it.... Then again, how often do you really mess with the settings?

Question on towing.... Is there any benefit in stiffening the rear struts while in tow?

[williaty]

I think I will bump it back to -1.5 up front and -1.0 in the rear with ZERO toe all around. I am kinda timid to do this again because my last set of tires went to crap FAST running them specs. Then again, they where Kumho's aka the suck...
If you have accelerated tire wear, the culprit is almost always toe, not camber. However, increasing the camber will decrease the acceptable amount of toe before things go pear shaped.

Question on towing.... Is there any benefit in stiffening the rear struts while in tow?
If you mean towing the Impreza, probably not, or at least I can't think of any reason why.

However, if you mean towing something _with_ the Impreza, there's a chance the answer is yes. Any time you weigh down the rear end significantly, wither with stuff inside, on top, or tongue weight, you push the rear suspension down into the bump stops. This raises the effective wheel rate. Increases in wheel rate require increases in damping. This, btw, is why you car gets tail happy with a full butt.

[fattie92]

However, if you mean towing something _with_ the Impreza, there's a chance the answer is yes. Any time you weigh down the rear end significantly, wither with stuff inside, on top, or tongue weight, you push the rear suspension down into the bump stops. This raises the effective wheel rate. Increases in wheel rate require increases in damping. This, btw, is why you car gets tail happy with a full butt.


I was referring to towing with the wagon. I have a 5x8 trailer i put my camping/race gear into and I sometimes tow the motorcycle as well. The wagon is packed as can be at the same time.


What do you think? Additional turn?

[williaty]

No idea. Damp it until it's right ;)

[fattie92]

:headbang:Struts, shims and spacers are here! Getting the springs this weekend!!

[fattie92]

Question..... How well do the camber bolts with the plastic lobes hold up? I was checking out the camber bolts from NAPA. They actualy look nice and beefy, I just was not sure about the lobes being plastic and all...

[williaty]

I would NEVER use a bolt with plastic in it. Bad juju.