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Jard
05-23-2008, 11:34 AM
I received this through our local Rally-X Regional mailing list so I assume it's public info.

edit: It's on the public SCCA forums too.

Big ones for me are no cats required in Prepared and allowed to add a LSD in Prepared if you don't have one.

Hi All,

Below are the proposed rule changes for 2009. You can also find these on
the SCCA website Forum

http://www.sccabb.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=6590
<http://www.sccabb.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=6590&PN=1> &PN=1

Please either put comments on the Forum or send them to rxb@scca.com

Here are the proposed rule changes for the 2009 RallyCross rules. The RXB
appreciates the time and effort of all the members that have submitted
comments and the time that the rules committee has spent on this layer of
the rules change process.

Per the rules change timeline as posted at
<http://www.sccabb.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=6182&PN=1>
http://www.sccabb.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=6182&PN=1 , we are ahead of
schedule and now offer this draft two weeks early. We will accept member
comment on this draft intil June 15, 2008.

Please post all comments in this thread to keep discussion in one place.
Please do not use the previous threads. I am going to ask that those older
threads be closed (not deleted) so we can keep the discussion on topic with
the current proposed changes as opposed to the raw rules change requests as
submitted by the members.

Enough with the preamble, here they are!

Scoring

5.2.E The method of scoring Regional Rallycross events (all runs, dropping
one or more runs, fastest run only, etc.) shall be posted and available to
all competitors. Additionally, this information must be included in the
supplementary regulations submitted with the sanction application (Article
5.6). National and Divisional RallyCross events must use a cumulative
scoring method with no dropped runs.

Stock Category

6.2.C.2.d Tires must be the original size plus/minus 20mm cross section and
5% aspect ratio. (For example, a car that came equipped with a 205/55/16
can run cross section from 185 to 225 and aspect ratio from 50 to 60. This
also eliminates the tread gap rule.)

6.2.C.13 Shocks/dampers may be replaced with OEM or aftermarket replacement
units intended for the specific year make and model used. The stock spring
must be used as it was on the OEM unit. The spring perch must be factory
welded to the damper or use the exact attachment method and position as OEM.
Adjustable dampers are only allowed if the OEM unit was adjustable and must
retain the same number of adjustments or fewer as OEM. Remote reservoir
shocks are only allowed if they are exact OEM units. (The change is adding
"and position" to the third sentence)

6.2.C.14 The front sway bar may be replaced or removed. A replacement front
sway bar may serve no other purpose than originally intended by the vehicle
manufacturer. In the case where the front sway bar is also a suspension
locating link, stock geometry and methods of attachment must be maintained.

Prepared Category

Delete 6.2.D.4.d in it's entirety. (This allows prepared category vehicles
to remove exhaust catalysts)

6.2.D.14 On carburetor equipped cars, jets, accelerator pumps, power valves,
metering rods, vacuum secondary and metering springs may be replaced.
Removal of choke plates, linkage and shafts is allowed. No machining
allowed of any carb component.

6.2.D.15 Vehicles may substitute one differential with a mechanically
governed limited slip or locking unit of an alternate type. This includes
spools and welded stock differentials. This does not allow the use of a
differential with external controls (electronic or otherwise) to regulate
slip or locking. Differentials must be contained in a stock unmodified
housing/third member with stock or optional ring and pinion ratios available
for the specific model, body, and year of the vehicle only. 4wd vehicles may
not substitute more than one differential with an alternate type.

6.2.D.16 Batteries may be substituted with any type. Relocation of the
battery or batteries within the engine compartment or trunk area/luggage
compartment behind the rearmost seats is permitted. Longer battery cables
may be substituted to permit relocation and holes may be drilled to
accommodate mounting of the battery and cables.

6.2.D.17 Accessory drive pulleys and belts may be replaced.

Modified Category

6.2.E.6 Side and rear windows may be removed or replaced with Lexan or
equivalent. Windshield may be replaced with Lexan or equivalent with
addition of a full roll cage built to SCCA Improved Touring specifications
or better.

6.2.E.10 The shape of the body must remain recognizable as that of the
manufacturer's make and model. The body must be made of a fire resistant
material. Doors, hoods, trunk lids, sunroofs, hatchbacks, etc. need not
function as originally designed. Bumpers, grilles, lights, glass, and trim
may be removed. Side mirrors and tail/stop lights are not required. Any
edges created by these modifications that the driver or passenger may
contact must be properly insulated to prevent injury. Roof panels must be
metal of at least the same thickness as original. Sunroof panels may be
replaced with sheet metal of at least the same thickness as an original roof
skin without sunroof. Inner roof structure may only be modified with
addition of a full roll cage built to SCCA Improved Touring specifications
or better.

6.2.E.14 - Any fuel system may be used provided gasoline or diesel fuel is
used. Any NON-STOCK fuel cell, filter or pump located in the passenger
compartment must be shielded by a metal bulkhead. Any fuel lines running
through the passenger compartment must be of metal or metal braided
construction.

Changes NOT recommended at this time.

Stock

6.2.C.13; Allow double adjustable dampers. Not recommended based on cost
and class philosophy

6.2.C.15 - Paint is free. Graphics may be added. Not recommended as this is
already covered by 6.2.C.5 .

Prepared

6.2.D.14 - Fasteners are free. Not recommended as this is covered by 6.2.B.

__________________
Mark Utecht
RXB Member, rules committee chair

katnip
05-23-2008, 06:23 PM
like a cat or no cat is gonna give you any advantage at a rallycross and the LSD is debatable!:crazy:

NER's 4m top finisher is driving a completely stock (save the occassional rally tires) VR4.

Drew84
05-24-2008, 03:42 AM
However Kat the dropping of one bad run at the regional level could easily change the whole dynamic of the event. Oh what is this part about graphics in 6.2.C.5? OH I found it. It just says that dress items that serve no purpose of performance gain are legal. I was under the impression that Redline Rally Decals provide 5whp a piece.

LGT-FST
05-24-2008, 03:57 AM
like a cat or no cat is gonna give you any advantage at a rallycross and the LSD is debatable!:crazy:

NER's 4m top finisher is driving a completely stock (save the occassional rally tires) VR4.
Current points leader and 2nd are in a very modded german luxury car.

katnip
05-24-2008, 04:22 AM
NER will continue to run national rules for runs, cummulative.

Yes, Warren, you are currently, but that bone stock, oil drinking VR4 makes you work HARD for 1st. But are you telling me taking the cat off your car is gonna help?:shocked:

LGT-FST
05-24-2008, 05:57 PM
NER will continue to run national rules for runs, cummulative.

Yes, Warren, you are currently, but that bone stock, oil drinking VR4 makes you work HARD for 1st. But are you telling me taking the cat off your car is gonna help?:shocked:
I think a prep car should be road legal. No cat doesn't cut it on the street.

williaty
05-24-2008, 05:59 PM
If you want to look at the chaos that stems from exhaust legality, take a look at the stuff that went down in ST* this year. You DO NOT want rallycross to turn into the bull**** that is AX.

Jard
05-24-2008, 07:07 PM
like a cat or no cat is gonna give you any advantage at a rallycross and the LSD is debatable!:crazy:

NER's 4m top finisher is driving a completely stock (save the occassional rally tires) VR4.
Wow, who invited Negative Nancy. :lol:

The no cat rule could help bring more people with modified road cars to rally-x.

williaty
05-24-2008, 07:13 PM
That's true, as we had a guy in our region who just (as in maybe 2 weeks ago), bought an entirely new turbo-back just to get a cat so he could move from M down to P.

Of course, I'm still screwed into Mod because I have 06 lateral links on an 05 :lol:

katnip
05-25-2008, 05:21 AM
Wow, who invited Negative Nancy. :lol:

The no cat rule could help bring more people with modified road cars to rally-x.

how is this bringing cars to rallyx? you can run no cat in modified! my car is PA, except I leave the backseat out so my rally tires don't get it dirty, that alone puts me in Mod. No biggie!

I still say catless is not any advantage in a rallycross, and I would encourage Regional Boards to modify that rule in their supplimentals. NER venues are often near residential areas and we don't need to contribute to polution any more than necessary.

Kathy

MrToad
05-25-2008, 05:22 AM
The appeal of the rules in their current form is their simplicity and the emphasis they place on driver skill and consistency. The effort to allow additional modifications in the Stock and Prepared classes in my opinion is unnecessary. I doubt it would increase participation or competitiveness. Purpose-built or purpose-prepared cars belong in Modified, period. Those who must spend money or make mods to go faster should either adhere to to current rules, be willing to be bumped up a class or better yet consider spending money on driving school.
JT

Jard
05-25-2008, 07:05 AM
how is this bringing cars to rallyx? you can run no cat in modified! my car is PA, except I leave the backseat out so my rally tires don't get it dirty, that alone puts me in Mod. No biggie!

I still say catless is not any advantage in a rallycross, and I would encourage Regional Boards to modify that rule in their supplimentals. NER venues are often near residential areas and we don't need to contribute to polution any more than necessary.

Kathy
I said it could...not that it will.

There are a ton of people in the DC area that have modified Subarus with catless exhausts. I personally choose to run a cat in my street car/rally-x car, but whatever if you don't want to.

At a regional level, the guys with mildly modified WRXs that are only in M4 because of no cats are getting killed by cars that are fully prepped to run modified. As fun as it is to go out and rally-x, it's also fun to be a little competitive. Since a cat makes no difference in performance for rally-x (as you've stated), why push those people to modified?

We don't have the noise issue as we run at Summit Point Raceway in Summit Point, WV. The cars on the road track are about a billion times louder than us.

LGT-FST
05-25-2008, 07:46 AM
I said it could...not that it will.

There are a ton of people in the DC area that have modified Subarus with catless exhausts. I personally choose to run a cat in my street car/rally-x car, but whatever if you don't want to.

At a regional level, the guys with mildly modified WRXs that are only in M4 because of no cats are getting killed by cars that are fully prepped to run modified. As fun as it is to go out and rally-x, it's also fun to be a little competitive. Since a cat makes no difference in performance for rally-x (as you've stated), why push those people to modified?

We don't have the noise issue as we run at Summit Point Raceway in Summit Point, WV. The cars on the road track are about a billion times louder than us.
A car that drives to an event without a cat should be towed away. Driving without a cat on the street is against the law if the car came with one. Thats why the so called test pipes say for off road use only. Cats belong in prep.

katnip
05-26-2008, 07:05 AM
what is the gain of running catless? I am truely curious.


if it's mucho hp and one is still getting a whooping in mod, then maybe one needs to work on the hardware in the left seat;-) Send em up to the NER region, they'd get their catless rex's handed to them by a completed stock VR4 with a gazzillion miles, that sucks oil like gasoline. Or an audi that was running on less than all 4 cylinders for a year! Or better yet, a rex waggie that is in prep only because of the SB, his times have been 10's of seconds fast tha, the others in PA!

your region must have some serious rallyer's that run mod. I think the majority of the mod cars that run NER are only in mod because of a missing back seat, being partially stripped, driver choice, etc. There are the occasional rally cars that run, but not that often and they even need to have a cat if the state inspection requires it!


I have said this ad-nausium, but the best mod anyone can make is in the left seat. I am usually in the 8th-12th range when I drive my car, my husband, on the other hand, can podium with my car with the same set up I run. RX has lots to do with the driver, not just the car!!!!!!!!!!!

Jard
05-26-2008, 07:24 AM
what is the gain of running catless? I am truely curious.


if it's mucho hp and one is still getting a whooping in mod, then maybe one needs to work on the hardware in the left seat;-) Send em up to the NER region, they'd get their catless rex's handed to them by a completed stock VR4 with a gazzillion miles, that sucks oil like gasoline. Or an audi that was running on less than all 4 cylinders for a year! Or better yet, a rex waggie that is in prep only because of the SB, his times have been 10's of seconds fast tha, the others in PA!

your region must have some serious rallyer's that run mod. I think the majority of the mod cars that run NER are only in mod because of a missing back seat, being partially stripped, driver choice, etc. There are the occasional rally cars that run, but not that often and they even need to have a cat if the state inspection requires it!


I have said this ad-nausium, but the best mod anyone can make is in the left seat. I am usually in the 8th-12th range when I drive my car, my husband, on the other hand, can podium with my car with the same set up I run. RX has lots to do with the driver, not just the car!!!!!!!!!!!
On a tuned WRX, catless is not going to get you more than 5-10 whp...which is why I do run a cat...no reason not to.

So, since there is no real huge performance advantage, I have no problem with them running in PA with me.


At our last event on Saturday there was a M4 Impreza L with a 2.5L NA motor, stripped behind the front seats, and on rally rubber. Those guys are about 2-3 seconds faster than me on a 2:20'ish course.

Other than that, the PA cars are usually the fastest in our region. I was 3rd overall behind the L but I did hit a finish cone (10 second penalty). Without the finish cone I would have been 2nd overall.

The fastest car at our events is usually a 323 GTX that runs in PA, but he broke at the April event and hasn't gotten his car back together again.


I completely agree with you on the seat time, but on certain courses power is going to make a difference too. Another guy with a bugeye WRX wagon has almost the exact same mods as I do but I have about 60 more wheel hp. We get some fast courses going with our current layout and the extra hp definitely helps.

katnip
05-26-2008, 08:16 AM
On a tuned WRX, catless is not going to get you more than 5-10 whp...which is why I do run a cat...no reason not to.

So, since there is no real huge performance advantage, I have no problem with them running in PA with me.


At our last event on Saturday there was a M4 Impreza L with a 2.5L NA motor, stripped behind the front seats, and on rally rubber. Those guys are about 2-3 seconds faster than me on a 2:20'ish course.

Other than that, the PA cars are usually the fastest in our region. I was 3rd overall behind the L but I did hit a finish cone (10 second penalty). Without the finish cone I would have been 2nd overall.

The fastest car at our events is usually a 323 GTX that runs in PA, but he broke at the April event and hasn't gotten his car back together again.


I completely agree with you on the seat time, but on certain courses power is going to make a difference too. Another guy with a bugeye WRX wagon has almost the exact same mods as I do but I have about 60 more wheel hp. We get some fast courses going with our current layout and the extra hp definitely helps.

that's what I thought, catless is not enough of a gain to matter.

now your courses are obviously waaayyy longer than ours. ****e 2:20? we are lucky to get above a minute at most venues, and in that case, power is not always an advantage! at some of our venues the 2wd cars are setting FTD, short, tight courses are their friend, and a turbo car's enemy:muhaha:

I am more for not encouraging illegal modifications to a car. Allowing catless in PA seems to do that and for the small power gain, not worth it on many levels.

Jard
05-26-2008, 08:28 AM
I am more for not encouraging illegal modifications to a car. Allowing catless in PA seems to do that and for the small power gain, not worth it on many levels.

It's a fine line for sure. How do you increase and promote participation, keep costs down to compete, and follow all applicable laws?

The classing system is one place where Rally-X is so much better than Auto-X right now for this.

katnip
05-26-2008, 08:41 AM
It's a fine line for sure. How do you increase and promote participation, keep costs down to compete, and follow all applicable laws?

The classing system is one place where Rally-X is so much better than Auto-X right now for this.

keeping costs down is not allowing catless. its cheaper to run a cat than not! especially if you get caught by Mr. Police officer!

don't even get me going on AX classing:lol:

carl
05-26-2008, 09:31 AM
the catless switch to PA is to make the rallyx classifications more similar to those of autox.

katnip
05-26-2008, 09:41 AM
the catless switch to PA is to make the rallyx classifications more similar to those of autox.

what AX classes allow catless. my RS is PA and STX if I put the seat back in. very similar classes, CMC allowed me to run mine in STX w/o the backseat. Mine has heightening springs. Got lots of laughs when I took it to an AX and yet it was very competative

most AX'ers cringe when they see our RX courses:muhaha: at least those who lower their cars.

Jard
05-26-2008, 10:20 AM
what AX classes allow catless. my RS is PA and STX if I put the seat back in. very similar classes, CMC allowed me to run mine in STX w/o the backseat. Mine has heightening springs. Got lots of laughs when I took it to an AX and yet it was very competative

most AX'ers cringe when they see our RX courses:muhaha: at least those who lower their cars.
The Street Prepared classes allow you to run catless.

pjhe
05-27-2008, 11:24 AM
catless is more economicallya s well as most turbo back aftermatket systems are at least $100 cheaper if you run catless

there are a ton of people that modify their car before deciding to enter into any form of motorsport. not that it's the right way to go, but it's nice when the f&f crowd decides taking to the streets is dumb and wants to actually take part in some organized competition. bumping them to the top class does effectively chase many right back onto the street. (where they were illegal before with their exhaust). so regarding the legallity of catless versus catted the rules change would not encourage person to go catless. (price and the possibility of a slight increase of performance does though)

for the record i run stock exhaust