Rally Sprint

[Rally OBXT]

I know most people here participate in rally-x and would probably like to compete in stage rally. The reality for most people is that building a rally car or buying one (even a cheap one) is a little too far out of reach.

I am trying to see how many people would do a Rally Sprint if it had minimal requirements (like a bolt in roll cage) and the cost was not too high to enter.

Opinions?? Thoughts??

[409industries]

I know most people here participate in rally-x and would probably like to compete in stage rally. The reality for most people is that building a rally car or buying one (even a cheap one) is a little too far out of reach.

I am trying to see how many people would do a Rally Sprint if it had minimal requirements (like a bolt in roll cage) and the cost was not too high to enter.

Opinions?? Thoughts??

This almost seems counter intuitive to me. Yeah rallysprints are awesome, but the higher speeds almost require more money just to do it safely.

In anycase, count me in.

[Rally OBXT]

This almost seems counter intuitive to me. Yeah rallysprints are awesome, but the higher speeds almost require more money just to do it safely.

In anycase, count me in.

I see what you are saying about being safe, but people run their "street" cars at track days ALL the time and they have no cage at all. Hell, I was hitting 100 MPH in the Trout @ Buttonwillow. I don't have a cage. I plan on running Willow Springs Big track soon and I will see 120-125 mph there. If the Rally Sprint venue is like what we saw at Laughlin or at 07' Rim of the world, I would think that a bolt in cage would be fine.

[munozppk]

How about a rally sprint going across the dry lake bed at JV? It will be pretty safe since you dont have to go around trees or blind turns. We might need like a million cones, we could probably get a sponsor!

[409industries]

If the Rally Sprint venue is like what we saw at Laughlin or at 07' Rim of the world, I would think that a bolt in cage would be fine.

Yeah wide open spaces would be all good!

Also about JV or something... you really wouldnt need that many cones. just space them out. I like having lots of options on a rallyx course. picking lines you like is awesome.

[munozppk]

would it be possible to use a giant amount of space like that? is it possible to get permission? or will people/rangers not allow it?

[Rally OBXT]

I think you just have to get the right permit. Cross country Moto X races use the whole lake bed at times IIRC.

[munozppk]

Hmmm....??


Anyone up for a lake bed rally sprint during the summer break?

[Rally OBXT]

You gonna put a cage in your car?

[munozppk]

If i can find a bolt on.....:?

[Rally OBXT]

Autopower makes one, it's "only" $900!!!

[munozppk]

well thats pocket change me.


omg! thier website is taking too long to load!:pissed:

[UP2MTNS]

I'll be waiting for the jackson rally cage next year. no point in spending time/cash on a bolt-in cage that's not even going to last 12 months.

even if you guys have it in a open lake bed, you'll still need to get event insurance. Rally sprint insurance is like $3K.

[munozppk]

True, how much will a Jackson Roll cage set me back?

[Rally OBXT]

Prob around $3000-$4000 and you will have to rip your interior out. :mrgreen:

[bfrancis827]

Sounds like fun. If there were more than just one event I would consider getting a bolt in cage.

[JacksonRally]

Prob around $3000-$4000 and you will have to rip your interior out. :mrgreen:

Well a proper stage rally type cage will be closer to 5k after all is said and done. I will not ride in a car with any "bolt in" cage that is currently available, plus a proper bolt in cage will cost more than a welded in cage....way more work. I know there are cages out there the will pretty much just "pop" right in but they are NOT safe. The major problem is people think that they have a cage and start to drive over the limits of the safety of that cage, then whoops cage didn't hold. Now it is very possible to do a proper cage with the full interior, inc. headliner and plastics. Plus not all types of racing require a cage as extreme as stage rally type cage....costs would be less.

[munozppk]

Well a proper stage rally type cage will be closer to 5k after all is said and done. I will not ride in a car with any "bolt in" cage that is currently available, plus a proper bolt in cage will cost more than a welded in cage....way more work. I know there are cages out there the will pretty much just "pop" right in but they are NOT safe. The major problem is people think that they have a cage and start to drive over the limits of the safety of that cage, then whoops cage didn't hold. Now it is very possible to do a proper cage with the full interior, inc. headliner and plastics. Plus not all types of racing require a cage as extreme as stage rally type cage....costs would be less.

so pretty much...


if you going to do something, do it right the first time!

[pomspeed]

First off, great topic Dave.

Safety, definitely need cages. Suspension may need upgrading, as some rallycrosses are a bit rough.

I've been wanting to do rallysprint ever since 2003 at Thunderhill. I really don't have rally aspirations as the entry fees and travel expense would be insane. I figure rallysprints could be done for about $100-$150/ entry.

bfrancis, Brian, I will be looking to do a rallysprint at Prairie City at some point, mostly expect rally people to play, but I'll end up with a cage in my STi as well, or my Suzuki.

As for insurance, the other requirement would be EMT or ambulance. Thankfully I spoke with Mike G after Ridgecrest and spoke about how Gorman only has to have EMT service for a real "rally". Heck we already have to have EMT's at our rallycrosses at Prairie City, so we already know that routine. $40/hour and it sucks paying it for a rallycross.

Brent

[Rally OBXT]

Well a proper stage rally type cage will be closer to 5k after all is said and done.........Plus not all types of racing require a cage as extreme as stage rally type cage....costs would be less.

Oh wow, sorry Kyle I did not know that a proper cage would cost that much. :oops:

It is good to know on the otherhand that if you want to build a cage for lighter duty, you can and it would cost less.

So I guess my question is this: If someone was to compete in ONLY Rally Sprints, how "tough" would the cage have to be?

I am talking about events like Laughlin (the super special stage) and Rim 07'. No solid objects to hit really, speeds that average around 60 mph and the worst you could do is roll over.

[munozppk]

I have a question too:

Can you build a cage for sprints and then ADD to it, if you want to do stage rally?

or does it not work that way?

[WRR]

I see what you are saying about being safe, but people run their "street" cars at track days ALL the time and they have no cage at all. Hell, I was hitting 100 MPH in the Trout @ Buttonwillow. I don't have a cage. I plan on running Willow Springs Big track soon and I will see 120-125 mph there. If the Rally Sprint venue is like what we saw at Laughlin or at 07' Rim of the world, I would think that a bolt in cage would be fine.


Dave you make a good point here... and plz don't get me wrong I am a safety nazi to a certain degree & in fact I wear a helmet and wrist guards EVERY time I snowboard just cause it feels right (plus I'm big and fall HARD).. but anyway - I do wonder how a street car can run at a track day event with almost no safety equip. at all and see speeds well into the 100mph range but to run 75 ish on a dirt road you need a full cage - granted, help is always 1/4 mile away at a track event and could be 5 miles away at a rallysprint but still - good question.. I am a believer that there are a lot of log-booked rally cars sitting in garages in SoCal (and probably everywhere) due to the cost of upgrading safty gear (H&N, etc) and the huge cost of events - hotels, fuel, spares, crew, towing, etc, etc... there is a market out there for a low level rally - call it whatever you want...

[pomspeed]

Dave and Pedro, since there are no "specs" for rallysprint, the best thing would be to look at existing cage requirements for other forms, like stage rally, various scca road race classes and such. As mentioned earlier the idea of track day speeds imply a certain level of ability and safety record. If a significant number of people started wrecking their cars at track days, I guarantee safety requirements would change.


For the most part it's the concept of what makes for a safe cage: diameter of tubing, wall thickness and design of cage itself.

For example I did circle track racing in 2005 and then converted the car to road racing. I actually had to remove some of the "bracing" as it would be considered stiffening of the subframe. I built it the way I had for safety for circle track racing. The same basic principles applied for both, namely 1.5" tubing with a sidewall of .120

[Rally OBXT]

I am a believer that there are a lot of log-booked rally cars sitting in garages in SoCal (and probably everywhere) due to the cost of upgrading safty gear (H&N, etc) and the huge cost of events - hotels, fuel, spares, crew, towing, etc, etc... there is a market out there for a low level rally - call it whatever you want...

Now your smellin' what I am cookin' :mrgreen:

[409industries]

I agree that bolt in cages suck. They are for looks mostly and i wouldn't trust one to save my life on a multiple rotation roll. Even the Cusco Safety21 bolt in cages (theyre expensive) just dont have the same rigidity as a welded cage.

Jackson Rally Cages FTW!

[JacksonRally]

I am talking about events like Laughlin (the super special stage) and Rim 07'. No solid objects to hit really, speeds that average around 60 mph and the worst you could do is roll over.


This is very possible. Extensive "door bars" wouldn't be needed. Minimal "x" bracing but I would keep tube dia. and thickness up to par with what is required for a complete stage rally cage....1.75x.095, this way you can alway add to it later then get it logged.

[JacksonRally]

Oh and it could be a little lighter if no co-driver was present.

[pomspeed]

Wow, so the rally requirements are 1.75" .095? Even for 3100+ pound cars?

Does anyone have a link for rollcage specs for design for rally? Thanks

[409industries]

how many times have i read this damn thing?

FIA article 253... know it.

http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/994546964__AppJ_Art_253.pdf

[pomspeed]

Thanks for the link, forums are great for lazy people.

It's nice how their view on design is more for safety as opposed to "you can only use our one design and everything esle is not safe".

[Rally OBXT]

I agree big time that bolt in cages are not good as weld in, but the price difference is quite large. I guess you get what you pay for.

[pomspeed]

I've never personally dealt with a bolt in cage, but I'd find it hard to believe that companies are manufacturing them without fear of legal problems if a properly installed cage fails due to being a bolt in cage. Getting what you pay for is one thing, but failure due to manufacturer would be another. Personally I don't have to worry, as I build my own cages beyond what any organizations specs are, not only getting what you pay for, but design is not limited to someone else and my safety is far more important than the dollars. Yet Hans thinks that the same philosophy justifies $900 for their device, sure they finally lowered their price.