Left-Foot Braking

[409industries]

One common race situation that requires left-foot braking is when a racer is cornering under power. If the driver doesn't want to lift off the throttle, and potentially cause a trailing-throttle oversteer situation, left-foot braking can induce a mild oversteer situation, and help the car "tuck," or turn-in better. Mild left-foot braking can also help cure an understeer situation.

In rallying left-foot braking is very beneficial [1] especially to front-wheel drive vehicles [2]. It is closely related to the handbrake turn, but involves locking the rear wheels using the foot brake, which is set up to apply a significant pressure bias to the rear brakes. The vehicle is balanced using engine power by use of the accelerator pedal, operated by the right foot. The left foot is thus brought into play to operate the brake. It is not as necessary to use this technique with Rear-wheel drive and All_wheel_drive rally vehicles because they can be easily turned rapidly by using excess power to the wheels and the use of opposite lock steering, however the technique is still beneficial when the driver needs to decelerate and slide at the same time.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_foot_braking

Detailed writeup on Theory and Execution (FWD but still applicable to AWD):
http://www.rallyracingnews.com/lfb.html

[Pedro]

it works really well in autoX as well.

the WRX plows like a pig, untill either you lift or trail brake

[Rallycat66]

Common debate, but left foot braking is more about weight transfer than trying to "lock up" the rear wheels like you would with a handbrake.

Left foot braking works with ANY drive line configuration. All that changes is the amount of throttle and brake being used to accomplish the goal. You are using the brake to get the weight transfer and the gas to keep from locking up the brakes (and keep the turbo spooled up if applicable). In a FWD, this often equates to LOTS of gas and heavy braking. AWD is less throttle (usually at least 1/4 to 1/2 throttle, but rarely none) and moderate braking. RWD you use left foot braking to plant the front end only when needed. Trailing throttle oversteer is usually enough to get the job done, but occasionally you need a little stab of the brake to plant the front wheels and get them to bite.

Whole point is this - you need to turn, then you need weight on the front tires to get the car to turn in. Lifting off the gas sometimes is enough (RWD this is most often all that's needed), but more often on gravel/snow/etc you need to get the car to transfer more weight to the front wheels so they have more grip and can turn the car.

Now, you've transfered weight to the front, that means you've taken weight off the rear wheels and they "turn" less effectively. In other words, you've gotten the rear wheels to slide more than the front and you've got oversteer.

So, you want to stop that oversteer? Gently easing off the brake (or applying more gas) will transfer weight to the back of the car and give the rear tires more grip - stopping the slide. Do this too much and you'll cause the car to understeer (which can be a good thing at times - that's how you can recover a FWD from a MASSIVE oversteer situation).

Once you get good at it and have developed the fine motor control in your left foot (most people are too used to using their knee to operate the clutch rather than their ankle to work the brake - you need to retrain yourself to get the control you need), you can very precisely control the slip angle of the car on just about any surface. Playing around with various cars during the Winter Safe Schools this season, we would consistently find that even in "normal" driving conditions, we had much more control over the car on ice and snow using LFB rather than just the throttle. One specific example that come to mind is cruising along at a steady speed (say 25 - 30 mph) where the car is neutrally balanced. Try to make an emergency lane change and lifting doesn't really do much to transfer weight because the car is already neutral - this is even more pronounced in automatics. A little LFB will resolve that situation nicely. Unfortunately, we don't teach LFB at the Winter Safe Schools, so the trick that we teach people is to blip the throttle in order to lift the nose of the car and then when it comes back down, you'll get a little bite out of the tires. Totally counter intuitive to most people - a moose jumps in front of me, I try to turn and the car plows, so you want me to hit the throttle? But, they do it once and realize that it works very well.

Find some footage of the Group 4 and Group B Audi Quattros - especially the earlier long wheel base style - watch as they enter a corner and you'll see the nose of the car dip dramatically as they apply left foot braking to initiate the corner, the car steps out to the angle that they want, then the nose comes back up as they modulate the slip angle with the left foot. Every car is doing pretty much the same thing, but with the Audi's it was much more visible in the stance of the car.

Tim

[Storz]

^^ Once again Tim excellent, well written information! Thank you

[BlueREX04]

That is really good.. I will have to try that next time I have a snow cross :-) because the closest thing I have here in WI to dirt... is... well... snow :-)

[zebrasinamerica]

I was actually "working" on this tonight at work since I pull cars off of an assembly line and take them down around a fairly sharp left hand corner that feeds almost directly into a wide 180* downhill right. I was rather impressed with the results so now my issue is how do I train myself to do this in a manual since these are all automatics.

zebra

[UndercoverObbie]

I was actually "working" on this tonight at work since I pull cars off of an assembly line...

Zebra, you are so going to get fired :mrgreen: (teach me how to do it in the Battleship?)

[Blix666]

wow....extemely helpful tim. thanx again. i was hoping to use the NED nationals to practice this technique (being that my competition day ended when i went off course) but i was workin' w/my bud on fixin' the rallymirage. hopefully next time though! :twisted: :mrgreen:

[I Like It Sideways]

Very helpful information. I've given LFB a try, but not with much luck. The biggest difference I felt was on snow. On gravel, I was too jerky with the pedal.
Excellent write up

[BlueRu]

Sadly the best result I have ever had with LFB is on asphalt. Granted it might as well have been gravle. It was an OLD praking lot that has been neglected. All broken up and what not. I did it around a light pole. I was excited that it worked so good! Anyway, Zebra the best way I've done with my 5-spd is get up to speed into 3rd then downshift w/o gas into 2nd. Then just keep the tach at about 4 to 5 grand. As you exit you will get up to shiftpoint REALLY fast. Be ready for it. I think i went from exit to shift in like 10 feet.

[lorenkb]

Give it some time. It takes a while to train your left foot to be precise enough. I've damn near given myself whiplash a couple times when I thought I was being gentle enough with starting to brake :oops: I've been using the last corner on my way to work (AKA 90 degree sharp turn out in the middle of the desert) for trying to get my left foot to behave the way I want it to.

[Blix666]

was able to try out some lfb at my last event and it worked like a charm with my new tires. i had a serious problem keepin' my RPM's up through the corners due to the awesome traction difference between my snows and my gravel tires but the lfb definitely alleviated the problem!

[munozppk]

Sweet info guys. I cant wait to try this out tomorrow. I have to get ready for a rallycross at the end of the month and the only thing Ive mastered is double clutching. :shock:

[UP2MTNS]

Sweet info guys. I cant wait to try this out tomorrow. I have to get ready for a rallycross at the end of the month and the only thing Ive mastered is double clutching. :shock:

Hey Pedro, good to see you on the forum!!


go over to the 'member intro' and introduce yourself and tell'm how you met me....good story. :)

[munozppk]

I tried this tonight but I dont think I did it right. Maybe I didnt press the brake hard enough. Anyways, Im going to try it again. I just need to find a big enough parking lot where cops arent patrolling in San Francisco.

[odi]

Sweet topic and great replies. This forum is great!

Just wanted to add that when oversteer or understeer isn't a problem LFB just helps keep my AWD from excesive sweeping in less tight turns. Just punch that brake and the car bites into dirt harder.

[munozppk]

So I finally got a chance to try LFB in a dirt situation and I found it really hard to do. I think I was having a hard time becuase there was other things going on in my head, but I found it easier to heel/toe around shard turns.

[Rallycat66]

Sweet topic and great replies. This forum is great!

Just wanted to add that when oversteer or understeer isn't a problem LFB just helps keep my AWD from excesive sweeping in less tight turns. Just punch that brake and the car bites into dirt harder.

If by excessive sweeping you mean it doesn't drift out to the outside of the corner as much -- that would be mild understeer. Or simply carrying too much speed into the corner. 8)

[Rallycat66]

So I finally got a chance to try LFB in a dirt situation and I found it really hard to do. I think I was having a hard time becuase there was other things going on in my head, but I found it easier to heel/toe around shard turns.

It takes a long time to get used to using your left foot for braking. Most people are used to using that foot to activate the clutch (which is done with the whole leg) rather than applying the brake (which is done with the ankle), so controlling the brake force is tough until you get lots of practice. It is a very subtle motion that you probably are not accustomed to doing with your left foot.

Not sure exactly how you were using heel & toe, but it wasn't to do what left foot braking does.

Remember that the point of LFB is to transfer the weight of the car to the front wheels so they bite into the corner and turn the car better - while at the same time keeping the throttle on to gain those benefits. So it's training BOTH feet to work together to get the right balance.

Stick with it. It usually takes folks at a rally school a day or two of doing it constantly to get the hang of it.

Tim

[UndercoverObbie]

So I finally got a chance to try LFB in a dirt situation and I found it really hard to do. I think I was having a hard time becuase there was other things going on in my head, but I found it easier to heel/toe around shard turns.

It takes a long time to get used to using your left foot for braking. Most people are used to using that foot to activate the clutch (which is done with the whole leg) rather than applying the brake (which is done with the ankle), so controlling the brake force is tough until you get lots of practice. It is a very subtle motion that you probably are not accustomed to doing with your left foot.


No kidding. My big dirty secret is that I can't drive stick, so I'm surprisingly good at LFB- I don't 'punch' the brake like I would the clutch. I love going out onto gravel roads and taking corners in the Outback.

Now, does anyone have any tips for LFB/cornering in a FWD vehicle? I read the first-post article, and that was extremely helpful- it illustrated it really well. But any other suggestions?

[Rallycat66]

Now, does anyone have any tips for LFB/cornering in a FWD vehicle? I read the first-post article, and that was extremely helpful- it illustrated it really well. But any other suggestions?

With a '95 Impreza L as your FWD vehicle, 100% throttle almost all the time. Turn in and left foot brake to transfer the weight to the front wheels and the car should cut into the corner, unwind the steering and gently release the brake to control the amount of slide.

The only time you would be lifting on the throttle with something the power of an FWD L would be when you REALLY need to scrub speed - like coming into a 30 MPH corner at 80 MPH - and even then, stay in the gas to keep from locking up the front brakes (probably 50 - 75% throttle) or you hit a situation where the car is still spinning the front tires despite applying lots of braking (in which case you've either overheated the front brakes and are experiencing fade or you need new front brakes).

My experience with the FWD Imprezas is that they react very well to never lifting and applying light left foot brake pressure. It doesn't take much braking to get them to turn in and rotate. They turn in nicely and are very controllable.

And I hope that it's obvious that I'm talking about racing/rallying situations here - you don't want to be driving around on the street at 100% throttle all the time. :roll:

Tim

[sebhockey]

Now, does anyone have any tips for LFB/cornering in a FWD vehicle? I read the first-post article, and that was extremely helpful- it illustrated it really well. But any other suggestions?


Well one really easy one is to go out and practice. :tongue: Find an open area where you can just run in a big circle in the dirt/gravel and just continually run around it right at the point where your rear end is starting to kick out. This is basically a skid pad, you're basically finding the limits of adhesion for the amount of stearing input, throttle, brakes if you use em, tires, and ground conditions and learning how to adjust to them. It is probably the single most helpful thing for off road driving you can do since it teaches you limits of adhesion. You would be suprised how much you learn out of this and how much faster you can run a course after getting comfortable on a skid pad.

[odi]

If by excessive sweeping you mean it doesn't drift out to the outside of the corner as much -- that would be mild understeer. Or simply carrying too much speed into the corner. Cool

I meant when the car feels like hydroplaning or to light on the surface of the road. I then use LFB to dig it into dirt before it slides to much, to kind of keep the car on course (I guess keep it from understeering). That does plant the front of the car into the dirt :idea:. It also seems to plant the whole side of the car facing the outside of the turn as well though.

I am far from truly understanding my car and driving technique, and I'm really new to rally jargon.

Any good books on driving recommended?

[WRR]

my 2 cents is that you need to have the time and space to practice this over and over... my left foot had no idea how to gently push the brake pedal at first as I have trained it to push the clutch all the way in for years.. once you get the feeling right you will know and it is a nice way to control a slide - you keep the throttle on (in my FWD case, enough to keep the turbo spooled up) and then modulate the throttle using the brake - again, lots of practice and then learning where to use it and where not to is another steep learning curve because changing your mind mid-corner is not pretty :oops:

at a high speed rally-x with big sweepers - perfect but, a tight course - very hard to make it work for you and to gain anything from using it -

good luck and have fun!

[rollo]

I love discussions like this. I also spent ages training the fine motor control in my left foot, since it was only used to pushing down on the clutch pedal. I used to practice on quiet, straight roads. If you have a wheel/pedal set for a console or PC, that's also a way to do it - not as good as real life, but a lot more accessible :)

Once I got my foot trained, the problem for me was that (unlike heel/toe), using LFB isn't something you should be generally practicing on the road, IMO, cos you have to be at the limit for it to be useful.

On the dirt though, it really does allow you to carry a lot of speed through the turns while keeping the revs up - very important in a turbo car, especially - and keeping the front end tight to the line and pointed in the right direction. I generally dab the brakes in the sweepers (this is in the Evo) to keep the car sliding and counteract the understeer - it seems to work like a charm, and if you do it right it can really help your corner exit too.

Sounds obvious maybe, but it's really just a case of needing to be able to use both pedals at the same time, and it gives you another option for controlling your weight transfer.

[noisycricket]

Left foot braking all the way. When you want to make slight, subtle changes in weight transfer mid-corner, it takes way too long to move your right foot from throttle to brake and back again. By that time, you need to make more drastic changes, and you end up being less smooth and therefore slower.

Someone on SS.com put it best: it's like holding a string taut between both your hands. I use the pedals like a see-saw, lift one as the other gets dabbed. Ideally you'd drive so that you never *have* to make corrections, but if you're quick and smooth (and therefore more "subtle") you can't tell the difference even from the passenger seat, despite making 5-6 micro-corrections in one corner.

[SoCalBoomer]

Now, does anyone have any tips for LFB/cornering in a FWD vehicle? I read the first-post article, and that was extremely helpful- it illustrated it really well. But any other suggestions?

All I drive is FWD (first Honda, now Neon ACR) and have worked hard on my LFB'ing.

With AWD, it's more of a smooth dance, while with FWD it's more . . . abrupt. Think about it this way - you have two "dead" wheels in the rear (unlike with your AWD) and you're only pulling them along and may need to swing them around now and again.

Unfortunately, with a FWD car, when you're accelerating (which you want to do a lot of) you're moving the weight AWAY from your drive wheels. . . which is one reason why we understeer so much (especially under power.)

So, we can use LFB to do a couple of things - first, as RallyCat said, we can use it to shift weight toward the front wheels, which are the wheels we use to steer AND move. Very important to get the weight forward. Unfortunately, we can't use the nice modulated dance that AWD uses. . . best method in a FWD car is to stab at it (with varying degrees of stabbiness) to push the weight forward when you need it. If you modulate it like in an AWD car, it won't be nearly as effective.

Second, we can use it to swing the back end around - to make that dead weight actually accomplish something - to reduce the turning radius by rotating the car. How do we do this? Again, by stabbing the Left Foot on that Brake, you interrupt the traction at the rear both by shifting weight away from it AND by often causing them to skid or stop. Now, due to Hysteresis (cool word! and longer topic than for here - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysteresis) those wheels will stay sliding longer than they would had you not stabbed them. The trick to this is twofold - first, keep the revs UP (if you let the engine bog, then you have defeated the purpose) and second, STAB - don't modulate.

In my "lessons" with Mark Anton, Michel Hoche-Mong, and other extremely accomplished FWD drivers, the over-riding thing that has come across is this:

Go DEEP, Rev High, LFB HARD/Stabby, and Run Hard.

and remember that LFB does NOT turn the car - it ACCELERATES the turn (and Handbrakes Exaggerate the turn) - if you aren't turning, then LFB won't actually DO anything but slow you down.

[UP2MTNS]

and remember that LFB does NOT turn the car - it ACCELERATES the turn (and Handbrakes Exaggerate the turn) - if you aren't turning, then LFB won't actually DO anything but slow you down.

+1 for AWD cars as well. you can't use LFB until after you've initiated the turn. So the REAL trick is to combine this thread with the scandinavian flick thread and use that to initiate that turn, get the car sideways, power through the turn, use LFB/throttle steer to keep you on your line, hit your apex, then straighten out the car and power out of the turn.....all that AND keeping in mind where you want to be for your next turn.

^^^get THAT down AND be consitant? you'll see your times drop dramatically.

[UP2MTNS]

Someone on SS.com put it best: it's like holding a string taut between both your hands. I use the pedals like a see-saw, lift one as the other gets dabbed. Ideally you'd drive so that you never *have* to make corrections, but if you're quick and smooth (and therefore more "subtle") you can't tell the difference even from the passenger seat, despite making 5-6 micro-corrections in one corner.

I don't know what context he was talking about, but for AWD turbos, I wouldn't agree with that. don't lift the gas at all, just hit the brake. if you're in 2nd gear and you let up (even a little) *and* dab the brake, you're going to bog, which defeats the purpose.

as a new guy this year, I recently figured this out first hand...because, of course, its natural to want to lift on the gas when you hit the brake, but I would still stay in over steer and find myself floating in the heavy stuff on the outside of the corner (which is how I got my cool avatar picture!). I would then have to downshift, or if I was already in first, clutch in, rev up, and then launch again.

I've never LFB in a 2wd car before, but in an AWD tubo, it can be as effective (or more) as using your hand brake (but its faster, and doesn't kill your rear diff). Like Mike said above for FWD cars, you're taking the weight forward and making your front tires that much more effective at turning. BUT, with your foot on the throttle, it also has our rear wheels flying while taking the weight OFF.....so that makes your rears even more slippery than the FWD guys because its dynamic friction vs static friction. (<---not as intellectual as 'hysteresis', but I digress LOL)

(if you don't know what I mean, think of a motorcycle sitting there idle....try to slide his rear tire sideways...no way, right? now what if he locks the front and starts spinning his rear? pretty easy to push/pull his back end around, right?)

Same concept....so you're oversteering into the mucky stuff? don't let up, hit the throttle and brake HARD at the same time and you'll pull out of it (eventually you'll get good enough to do that before you find yourself floating off course). This also helps in 'right/left TIGHTENS' situations. Even if you flick it perfect, and you're flying around your corner perfectly, if the turn starts to tighten up, you need to adjust quickly. Don't let up...just hit the LFB HARD, and you'll pivot around/oversteer even more.

[noisycricket]

I don't know what context he was talking about, but for AWD turbos, I wouldn't agree with that. don't lift the gas at all, just hit the brake. if you're in 2nd gear and you let up (even a little) *and* dab the brake, you're going to bog, which defeats the purpose.


So get better gearing (assuming you're talking about the torque-hole US WRX trans), or get antilag, or get rid of the turbo. Getting rid of the turbo works surprisingly well ;)

There's something to be said for driving around a problem, of course. It's good training, introduces greater flexibility. That's part of why I try to drive lots of different cars, I've driven three or four different cars competitively in the past year or so. At the same time, if your car has a known weakness, it'd make sense to eliminate that weakness if possible, no?

but I would still stay in over steer and find myself floating in the heavy stuff on the outside of the corner (which is how I got my cool avatar picture!).

Ah, yes, One of the things the Golf taught me... the importance of driving cleanly, and braking before the corner if need be. (4 turns lock to lock manual steering, and no lateral seat bolstering... *yuck*) Slow in is better than riding the marbles.

That was a fun, remarkably *quick* (not fast) car, but it started eating halfshafts...

I've never LFB in a 2wd car before, but in an AWD tubo, it can be as effective (or more) as using your hand brake (but its faster, and doesn't kill your rear diff).

Oddly, I only use the handbrake in my *rear* wheel drive car. There's not enough weight on the front for it to want to turn in, so the car has to be pitched into the corner beforehand for it to turn at all. Sometimes there isn't enough time to set it up, so handbrake...

[UP2MTNS]

So get better gearing (assuming you're talking about the torque-hole US WRX trans), or get antilag, or get rid of the turbo. Getting rid of the turbo works surprisingly well ;)


oh sure...just 'get' anti-lag....LOL. j/k :mrgreen: I wish I had the budget for an anti-lag set up, or a twin scroll set up.

kind of off topic, but I'm interested to see how changing the gearing in a WRX with a turbo can help/hurt their powerband. I'm looking at PPG gears (not dogbox) someday, and want to make sure whatever I get makes driving 'easiers.' Time for a new thread.

[409industries]

So get better gearing (assuming you're talking about the torque-hole US WRX trans), or get antilag, or get rid of the turbo. Getting rid of the turbo works surprisingly well ;)


oh sure...just 'get' anti-lag....LOL. j/k :mrgreen: I wish I had the budget for an anti-lag set up, or a twin scroll set up.

kind of off topic, but I'm interested to see how changing the gearing in a WRX with a turbo can help/hurt their powerband. I'm looking at PPG gears (not dogbox) someday, and want to make sure whatever I get makes driving 'easiers.' Time for a new thread.

I was about to say... start a new thread, thats definitely a whole can'o worms in itself.

[munozppk]

Glad to see I brought some life back into this thread.


All this info is just too much at one time and useless without putting everything into practice. Im about to print this thread out and find an empty dirt lot ASAP!

[sebhockey]

Glad to see I brought some life back into this thread.


All this info is just too much at one time and useless without putting everything into practice. Im about to print this thread out and find an empty dirt lot ASAP!

Definately go out and practice and avoid crutches like the ebrake.

[UP2MTNS]

Glad to see I brought some life back into this thread.


All this info is just too much at one time and useless without putting everything into practice. Im about to print this thread out and find an empty dirt lot ASAP!

Definately go out and practice and avoid crutches like the ebrake.

btw....you don't have to 'practice' on corners etc on the street. Just normal everyday street driving, use your left foot to brake. get used to using your left foot to clutch...then brake......then take your left foot off the brake, back onto the clutch, and taking your right off the gas and back onto the brake.

Just getting the mechanics down is step one.....getting that 'touch' down with your left foot so your comfortable in traffic, will allow you to practice the technique in competition, instead of accidentally hitting your clutch when you meant to LFB. (or stomping on LFB and comig to a dead stop...which I've done. that sucks.)

[noisycricket]

Ho-lee crap.

I know it's RWD, but...

Remember how I mentioned that my RWD car didn't like to turn in, like, at all?

My "new" RWD car has two things I never had before: effective front damping, and effective rear brakes.

Brake a bit immediately AFTER turn-in. Car rotates perfectly, get on the gas, and around we go... this reminds me that damping is critical and tells me that brake bias is *crucial*.

OTOH, I wouldn't have known to even try that if I hadn't been using the brakes to steer my Golf around, or played around in an Impreza or two.

[rollo]

Glad to see I brought some life back into this thread.


All this info is just too much at one time and useless without putting everything into practice. Im about to print this thread out and find an empty dirt lot ASAP!

Definately go out and practice and avoid crutches like the ebrake.

btw....you don't have to 'practice' on corners etc on the street. Just normal everyday street driving, use your left foot to brake. get used to using your left foot to clutch...then brake......then take your left foot off the brake, back onto the clutch, and taking your right off the gas and back onto the brake.

Just getting the mechanics down is step one.....getting that 'touch' down with your left foot so your comfortable in traffic, will allow you to practice the technique in competition, instead of accidentally hitting your clutch when you meant to LFB. (or stomping on LFB and comig to a dead stop...which I've done. that sucks.)

True - but in the beginning you don't wanna practice in traffic, at least if your left foot is as used to "clutch-in" as mine was - I'd try to LFB and hit the brakes so hard that my eyes would pop out. A bit like when you try and hit the clutch in an automatic :D

But once you have fine motor control down (and it doesn't take long) you can refine it anywhere. I find it comes in handy to activate the brake lights when someone is sitting on my ass on the freeway :D

[noisycricket]

But once you have fine motor control down (and it doesn't take long) you can refine it anywhere.

That's the biggie. A lot of people say not to brake with your left foot because it's too difficult to modulate the brakes.

Huh? You learned how to brake with your RIGHT foot, didn't you? Probably didn't take very long, either.

My first Subaru forced me to LFB, because it had the then-typical really crappy spongy pedal (poor choice of vacuum booster, I'm told) and you couldn't heel-toe unless you had an additional joint in your right ankle. So, LFB and learn to shift without the clutch... :D

[SoCalBoomer]

On the dirt, anyway, on RWD it's probably not the best thing to use LFB to turn the car - you use your RIGHT foot to turn your RWD car in the dirt - start the turn, mash the gas and get those rear meats spinning and the rear end swinging, opposite lock as needed, feather power to keep the rear tail-out where you want it, and let off a bit to let it catch when you're aimed in the correct direction.

On asphalt, it's all different, it's even called by a different name (more properly) - Trail-braking. On asphalt, it's purpose is to continue to put maximum power to the ground - it's a balance thing on asphalt while on the dirt we use it to pivot the car - quite different, really.

In any case - Rollo is right - get used to having your LF on the brake pedal. I have to figure out where to put my feet (since they're almost as monstrously ginormous as my head is. . .) so doing it as a normal course helps my motor skills (which are lacking) as well as helping me figure out where to put my huge lower paws!

:tongue:

[rollo]

But once you have fine motor control down (and it doesn't take long) you can refine it anywhere.

That's the biggie. A lot of people say not to brake with your left foot because it's too difficult to modulate the brakes.

Huh? You learned how to brake with your RIGHT foot, didn't you? Probably didn't take very long, either.


Possibly because people tend to be "right-footed", so the fine motor control is more easily mastered on that side? Still doesn't make a great deal of sense, it's not like you're training your left foot to do brain surgery :D Also any decent MT drivers have already mastered the fine motor control in their left foot - just in the wrong direction, i.e. letting the clutch out.

To Mike's point, I have size 12s too, and I've found that different cars help or hinder. The rather low brake pedal in the Corrado means I have to kind of lift my foot over the clutch, whereas the Evo (which I'd assume is more consciously laid out for 'performance driving') is much easier. In fact I had great trouble perfecting LFB and heel-toe in the Corrado, but once I'd mastered it in the Evo, I can now do both in any car (in fact, I find it really hard _not_ to heel-toe now).

[noisycricket]

On the dirt, anyway, on RWD it's probably not the best thing to use LFB to turn the car - you use your RIGHT foot to turn your RWD car in the dirt - start the turn, mash the gas and get those rear meats spinning and the rear end swinging, opposite lock as needed, feather power to keep the rear tail-out where you want it, and let off a bit to let it catch when you're aimed in the correct direction.

That's one theory. I get massive throttle understeer, more power picks the front tires off the ground. Turn with brakes, straighten out with throttle.

Sounds kinda familiar, yeah?

[Rallycat66]

On the dirt, anyway, on RWD it's probably not the best thing to use LFB to turn the car - you use your RIGHT foot to turn your RWD car in the dirt - start the turn, mash the gas and get those rear meats spinning and the rear end swinging, opposite lock as needed, feather power to keep the rear tail-out where you want it, and let off a bit to let it catch when you're aimed in the correct direction.

That's one theory. I get massive throttle understeer, more power picks the front tires off the ground. Turn with brakes, straighten out with throttle.

Sounds kinda familiar, yeah?

RWD - operational word is LIFT!!! To get the car to turn in, you have to lift completely off the throttle. That transfers weight to the front wheels (and in some cars can actually get the rear tires to drag a bit with engine braking), and car will turn in. As the rear end starts to come out, you apply throttle to transfer weight back to the rear wheels and stop that skid. Yes, you can create another type of skid by applying too much throttle, but that is not how you get the car to turn in - it is a way to keep the rear end loose and continue the corner. A rather fun way to do so I might add. :lol:

As for LFB with a RWD, sometimes it is a helpful technique. You lift and the car still does not want to turn in, a little (and I mean little) LFB will help transfer the extra weight needed to get the front tires to grip and turn the car in.

Tim

[SoCalBoomer]

Ahhh - I believe I may see. :D

It sounds like you're trying to use LFB (or throttle turn) to actually make the turn.

Don't.

Use LFB (or throttle turning) once the turn has been initiated, once the car has actually started turning.

Start turn with brakes, swing turn with throttle, straighten out with modulation.

Obviously, a lot has to do with what type of surface - the stuff we get to drive on around here is either sandy/dirty (Glen Helen), SILT (like talcum powder - Jean, Blythe, Johnson Valley), or loose or wet farm dirt (Antioch) - so our dirt tends to be either slippery or really loose.

And if when you stand on the gas (in dirt) your fronts LIFT OFF the ground, then you're in the wrong sport (should be drag racing) or you need to replace your rear struts! :lol:

[noisycricket]

Well by lift off I mean they lose enough grip that it understeers a lot. Just because it's 2WD doesn't mean it can't put the power down :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZqsl6k6MuU grip + dirt :)

The point I am making is that by and large the handling is the same for all vehicle *types*, weight transfer works the same no matter which wheels or how many of them are driving. If you're turning by using wheelspin, then you've got bigger problems... it's like trying to corner by using the handbrake: you're not rotating the car by using weight transfer and the G forces of the corner, and really you're not generating many G forces at all.

[rollo]

From this thread:
http://dirtyimpreza.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1457
it does not sound like Mr Cricket needs any help :D

[SoCalBoomer]

I hear what you're saying, NC, but I really have to disagree with you.

The dynamics of each of the three types of vehicles are really different.

For instance, with FWD, you stay on the gas since the drive wheels are PULLING - you use the brake to shift weight forward and away from the rears allowing you to bite more and to swing the rear - but you don't let off the gas. There's little modulation of the gas - it's modulation of the LFB.

With RWD, if you stay on the gas (beyond modulation) you're going to rotate too much and you'll not actually get much LFB benefit since you're trying to brake the drive wheels - with RWD you actually have to let off the gas when you LFB - you don't need to (don't WANT to) let off the gas with FWD.

With AWD, it's all about swing - how can you get the car to rotate and drive through the turn.


Now, granted, if you're only spinning your wheels then you're not being productive, but if you look at how WRC drivers do it, they're sideways entering the turn - already set up to their exit vector (or close to it) so they can start accelerating as soon as possible.

I'm obviously not saying that I'm that good, but if we can swing the car so we're facing the direction that we will exit the turn with, we can start accelerating sooner, and will (hopefully) have a higher exit speed, which means faster overall times.


Disclaimer - all of this is not directly from my head. I've figured some of this out while instructing - going in circles or figure 8's in the dirt, figuring out how to get the car to pivot, and then how to get other people to figure it out. Most of the rest comes from sucking the brains of extremely accomplished drivers like Mark Anton, Michel Hoche-Mong, Jack Maranto (would LOVE to see him come back. . .he was awesome), and many others. I'm a leech - I'll suck your brain dry! :D

[noisycricket]

You're placing a lot of assumption on tire spin. If you're spinning the tires, that's different.

Look at it this way. 3.62 First gear, 4.78 final drive, dumping the clutch at 7k and full throttle: no significant tire spin, just launch. If it doesn't spin the tires then, it won't spin 'em ever.

Same thing with my Golf. I was launching at around 5k, no tire spin. No tire spin on course, either.

but if you look at how WRC drivers do it, they're sideways entering the turn - already set up to their exit vector (or close to it) so they can start accelerating as soon as possible.

I'm obviously not saying that I'm that good, but if we can swing the car so we're facing the direction that we will exit the turn with, we can start accelerating sooner, and will (hopefully) have a higher exit speed, which means faster overall times.

And that's exactly what I'm talking about. FWD, RWD, and AWD are all driven this way, using weight transfer. The *only* difference is that for FWD and to a much lesser extent AWD, it doesn't matter as much where the back of the car is as long as you can crank in enough steering angle. Keeping the car rotating makes life easier for you if you're slow to steer, but that's what quick racks, steering quickeners, and good seats/harnesses are for... For RWD and to a slightly lesser extent AWD, the car needs to be pointed roughly in the vector where you want your thrust to go. Think of it like paddling a boat.

The net effect is the same, you need the drive tires to be applying thrust in the correct direction. The way you maneuver the car is the same as well...

When Lancia made their Integrale front-drive biased, they had very good reasons! And it worked in GpA.

[SoCalBoomer]

NC - true, they're all trying to get to the same results.

However, I am running a nearly stock Neon (my daily driver) and am running at the head of the RM2 class (equivalent) here and don't want to get quick racks, seat/harness, etc.

The difference is HOW we get to the same results; HOW we use weight transfer to get there; HOW we use the throttle and brake to move the weight to the appropriate wheels to get the results we want.

If I drove a RWD car the way I drive my Roxanne (Neon ACR), I'd be spinning around every single time. If I drove my Roxanne the way I would drive a friend's MR2, I'd be very slow and would not be able to pivot the car.

It's because each type of car has to use weight transfer differently in order to accomplish the needed results.


I'm not assuming things about tire spin - I'm basically saying it's there and acknowledging that traction is low - thus a lot of what we do on tarmac doesn't have the same effect when we're on dirt.

[WRXCMM]

here's a word on lfb from our fallen hero...(RIP)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMEqOGejlrw&NR=1

[rollo]

Awesome find.. even better, there's a whole series of them. I made a playlist, seven videos:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=CBA8F1CA7DCB973B

None of it is super-detailed but still, very very cool.

The interviewer btw is Penny Mallory, who is (amongst many other things) an accomplished rally driver, and the first woman to drive a WRC car in anger (although not the first woman to compete at rallying's highest level - Pat Moss, Michele Mouton and Louise Aitken-Walker come to mind).

[noisycricket]

Ah, well there's a difference too... weight distribution and especially suspension tuning distribution make a difference in *how* you drive the car.

For instance. In my Golf (stock everything MkII) the car simply would refuse to rotate. You'd have to pitch the car full-bore at the corner and maybe it would rotate a little bit, you needed to use the steering wheel to get the car around.

5 years newer Golf, a MkIII. Also stock. (This is the white Golf that was at the GLDiv Championship) It was everything that I could do to keep the damn thing from spinning if I so much as looked at the controls. You needed to use very little steering, just a dab of brake here and there and the car would rotate and you'd be around and gone.

Difference between the two cars: night and day. Both FWD. Only difference is suspension tuning and a leeeetle more weight in the rear on the MkIII.

[SoCalBoomer]

Absolutely true! My Civic wanted to spin without hardly asking her to, while my ACR is much more stable - I can get her to rotate easily, but I do have to ask.

[UP2MTNS]

Ah, well there's a difference too... weight distribution and especially suspension tuning distribution make a difference in *how* you drive the car.



+1 I didn't want to interrupt your little back and fourth banter, but I wanted to interject at some point and note that you guys were going beyond just 'LFB' and talking about the entire turn. Like I said earlier, LFB is just part of it...HOW you initiate the turn, the line you choose, how good you are at flicking the car, how early you turn in (or how late), how your car is set up to do what, etc, etc, etc.

Is everyone taking notes? cause the above posts are good stuff and there will be a practical exam....at your next rally cross event ;)

[noisycricket]

Exactly so. "Left foot braking" in the sense of using throttle and brake simultaneously to work against each other or "keep the string taut" is a mid-corner move to balance the chassis to where you want it. You can use it in a FWD at the beginning of the corner, but on dirt it's just like using the handbrake except even slower, you get rotation from sliding and not from G-forces, so the rotation stops as soon as you let off the brake, really upsetting the chassis.

G-forces, then (slight) brakes, but not much, just enough to subtly adjust attitude. Harder to describe than to do, I think.


As opposed to merely braking with your left foot, which is important to have (step 1 to learning to LFB: brake with your left foot) especially if you are 6'5 with size 13s and you like cramped little imports... or you have an older Subaru where the brake pedal mushes halfway to the floor, or any number of other reasons...

[SoCalBoomer]

sigh.

LFB in the rallyX sense (specifically in FWD, but to some degree in AWD) is NOT slower.

Try this - make a 50' circle of cones in the dirt. Drive around it straight, then try and go faster. You're going to understeer at some point and you have to figure out how to pivot the car so you can apply more power and go actually faster.

That's where LFB comes in.

In a FWD car, IN GENERAL, as soon as you let off the gas you lose directional motive - yes, weight transfers forward, but the tires aren't pulling you anywhere anymore so you pretty much just come to a stop. Remember Colin's Oversteer vs Understeer movie linked above. It's still true, even with FWD.

So you need to keep your foot in the gas - and you can use the LFB to pivot the car and allow you to pivot your way around the turn.

Good people can keep the tail out nicely and improve 25% or more all the way around the G-circle.

Anyway - my forehead is bruised (very hard to do).

[rollo]

LFB in the rallyX sense (specifically in FWD, but to some degree in AWD) is NOT slower.

Well and in my experience, AWD cars behave largely like FWD cars in most situations, especially 'turn-in' type situations. The difference is that if you apply it judiciously, you can use the power to bring you around in an AWD.

Try this - make a 50' circle of cones in the dirt. Drive around it straight, then try and go faster. You're going to understeer at some point and you have to figure out how to pivot the car so you can apply more power and go actually faster.


I am so trying this on Sunday.

:D

[WRR]

Phil.. this is exactly how Mike taught me the LFB at last years Ridgecrest Rally School and once we did a loop or two at a steady pace with the steering wheel 'locked' and then increased the speed (with him reaching over and holding the wheel so I could not adjust it at all) the light bulb went on for me!! all of a sudden I could completely adjust the turn using only the throttle and brake somewhat together.. this is a great exercise... I went on to have my best rallly-x ever (it also had to do with a 1/4 mile front straight and finish area allowing the SRT to finally hook up) then I promptly forgot it all a month later :(

I am all about heading down the lake for a little practice early in the AM

[SoCalBoomer]

yeah, it's the LAST time I teach you or Jon ANYTHING!!! (only kidding! but it seems that those people I spend a good amount of time with end up coming back and kicking my ass! sigh. :D )

Actually, even though your passenger seat is made for MIDGETS, it was really fun seeing that light bulb flash on (and then off, and then back on, and then back off. . .loose connection there somewhere? :twisted: )


Phil - if you do it, make sure to NOT move the wheel, the trick is to learn to steer the car with your feet, not your hands.

[rte7x9]

Feet, not hands...

You know, that sums it up pretty well, now that I think about it. I think I'm going to have to go do some driving tomorrow...None of the turns I go thru are really long enough to think thru all this stuff, moreso just time to flick in and tap the brake to induce a slide, then power out.

[Drew84]

I've been practicing at the last two Rally-x in the Mirage with left foot braking and its working well for me. Its just trying to get smooth with it thats really hard. Un-training my left leg, it's used to slamming the clutch to the floor but when I did it right it worked really well. The car rotated more consistently. I found however if you loose track of what direction the wheels are pointed in it can make it a difficult to recover. If you get the wheels pointed in the direction of the turn just right it makes it easier to go around the corner. When I screwed it up, it was bad. I went to shift on one run and slammed the brake instead of the clutch. Opps.

[UP2MTNS]

to get my left foot used to the right amount of pressure and positioning (moving back and fourth) I actually use my left foot for every day breaking in traffic. Start out on an empty street cause it is weird at first, but it doesn't take long to get used to it.

some more .02. well...maybe now I'm up to .03 or .04 ;)

[Drew84]

Well its tough since my Daily is the STi with 13' Brembos and the Mirage has 7' Single pistons and drums in the rear. The amount of brake pressure needed is significantly different. However rear drums lock up much quicker during LFB and its almost like having a hydraulic ebrake.

[SoCalBoomer]

But you still will get the fine motor skills you need for LFB. I think that was Jon's point.

[noisycricket]

sigh.

LFB in the rallyX sense (specifically in FWD, but to some degree in AWD) is NOT slower.

Try it in an underpowered car with stock brake bias. It *is* a slow way of gaining rotation mid-corner because you lose more at the front end than you gain in the rear end.

Heck even when you have "decent" power it still sucks. I learned it four times... once in a turbo Omni, once in a B12 Sentra, once in an Integra-engined stripped out CRX, and once in my Golf.

The CRX was a really telling one... the borrowed Omni and my Golf both have no effective handbrakes (Omni had no *handle*, Golf just sucks) so there was nothing I could do there. The Sentra defined underpowered but the handbrake was extremely powerful so it was a useful tool. Basically I didn't use it to lock the brakes up so much as balance the ends of the car, if that makes sense.

The CRX, though. Holy crap. You'd think that rear disc brakes meant for a long luxo-burdened car would be 10x awesome for a stripped out *CRX*, but the braking was still front biased enough that LFB mid-corner slowed you down more than it helped. Handbraking to adjust attitude was *still* faster, even though that car only had one wheel handbrake because the cables were upgefarked.

If we were talking about a high powered car enough where you could get enough speed to be able to use weight transfer effectively in *all* corners then yes, I'd agree. Most rallycross courses I've been on didn't have enough of a straight for that to be useful. Some did, and those were fun :)

[Drew84]

But you still will get the fine motor skills you need for LFB. I think that was Jon's point.

Yeah my daily commute to work simply doesn't have enough high speeds and two many stop signs to make it a practical way to practice. I agree with SoCalBoomer, its faster and smoother when done right.

[MIATA?]

Yeah my daily commute to work simply doesn't have enough high speeds and two many stop signs to make it a practical way to practice. I agree with SoCalBoomer, its faster and smoother when done right.

Now Andrew this is not me talking trash so dont get all silly on me. I believe alot of people are confused with this subject. And I am not a profesional race driver but I think I have a good understanding of left foot braking. This little write up is for the begginers that are truly interested in making progress as a driver. I learned about LFB in late 04 when I was driving a van for a car dealership. At that time I purchased a book called SPEED SECRETS written by Ross Bentley who is a Professional Race Driver. I read the ch. on LFB and it intrigued me. As I did with all the other ch.'s I started to practice on the streets in everyday traffic and such, but MOSTLY under normal speeds. I believe if you want to learn how to successfully LFB you better start practicing all the time because it isnt something thats going to happen after a few rally X's. I think people tend to read into things too much and end up just getting confused. (for a begginer) My advice would be to practice on the street like some have said already (people who have done what I have) and then practice on the street some more! Theres no real science to it other then training your left foot how to apply smooth pressure rather then jabbing at the pedal (at first,this is IF you have good car control). The only way to train your self is to practice in a slower yet longer setting. In example, going to work. If anybody thinks they can go through a 55 second race and learn it let's say even 2 years later then youll sadly see your self making no progress. I practiced LFB for 1 year easy in every day situations. The next step would be applying it in a racetrack setting. Obviously you can practice at both settings but I have found the street to be a very useful and a necessary tool. To this day I always practice my driving line to work, just be carful though because some may think your drunk! ha ha Anyway, They say "practice makes perfect" so stop analyzing everything and get out there and practice! Also, practice in anything you can get your hands on. No matter what it is.....If it has wheels drive it like your at the track. because youll be able to quickly adapt to anything you sit in. It worked for me and I think if you take it serious enough then youll see results. Later :crazy:

[MIATA?]

I know I said dont read into it but this is from the man himself!

Of all the techniques a High Performance Driver uses, leftfoot-
braking has got to be the most controversial. So, let’s
take a look.
First, I’m assuming we’re talking about left-foot-braking in
an automatic transmission car on the street or using it in
competition driving. I'll comment on the advantages and
disadvantages of both one at a time.
In an automatic on the street, left-foot-braking is only
effective if you drive with your left foot poised just above the
brake pedal, ready to brake in an emergency. This saves
the fractions of a second it takes to lift your right foot off the
gas pedal, move over to the brake, and then apply. The
argument goes that fraction of a second can mean
avoiding a collision.
However, the disadvantages may outweigh the advantages.
I'm sure you've seen the most obvious problem with leftfooting
it - the driver who allows the left foot to rest on the
brake pedal. As you follow this driver down the road, with
his brakelights ablaze, don't you ever have this
overwhelming desire to rear-end them right now to get it
over with? You know someone is going to do just that,
soon. By the way, they are probably on their way to the
brake shop to have them replaced for the fifth time ("cheap
car!").
This is not, as far as I'm concerned, the most serious
disadvantage. What is worse is not having the left foot
available to brace the body under heavy braking, and not
having the sensitivity for smooth braking that your right foot
has. The right foot is in use probably 80 to 90% of the time
on the gas pedal. This educates a driver's right foot to
become very sensitive, so that when you apply the brakes,
it's a smooth application. Even if you always left-foot-brake,
your left foot is only being used at most about 30 to 40% of
the time, and never becomes quite as sensitive as the right
foot. And you know how smooth and sensitive you should
be with the brakes!! A driver needs to brace his or her body
under heavy braking - and using the steering wheel and the
seatbelts is not good enough. By left-foot-braking, you are
sacrificing the support your left leg gives, and smooth
braking will suffer.
Getting back to the so-called advantage of it taking less
time to react by having the left foot poised above the brake
pedal. A study showed that 90% of your reaction time is
mental – the actual time it takes to move your foot from the
gas pedal to brake pedal is a non-factor. The advantages
mentioned above are real factors.
Now, rally, slalom or racetrack driving are a different story.
Left-foot-braking in rallying is almost a must - it is used to
help pitch the car into a turn. In slaloming, again it can be
used to help pitch a car into a turn, while helping save time
moving the right foot - not to mention being able to keep
the right foot on the gas while braking to avoid having the
engine bog out of a corner. Left-foot-braking in road
racing is used by a few drivers. When it is, it is usually to
either transfer a little weight onto the front tires (to aid
turning-in) without really slowing down (still keeping a little
throttle on at the same time), or to help keep the boost up
on a turbocharged car (again keeping the throttle on while
braking). Or, the drivers became so accustomed to it from
karting or after a leg/foot injury, it has just become habit.
These techniques are not for the novice.
In fact, left-foot-braking for competition driving is a
technique which takes quite a bit of practice to become very
proficient at it. This is when I would recommend left-footing
it during street driving - to practice. Otherwise, use the right
foot. I believe that the minor advantage of left-footing on
the street is heavily outweighed by the disadvantages. On
the slalom course (and sometimes on the racetrack),
however, perfect it and you're on the way to many more
wins.
Ross Bentley, Senior Instructor, Driving Unlimited
Professional Race Driver

[noisycricket]

I forgot to point out that FWD has one wonderful advantage. As long as you have enough steering, it doesn't matter what the car's attitude is. Just point the front tires in the direction you want to go and the rear tires will follow. So all this attitude-adjusting LFB/handbrake/etc is only for if you run out of steering *or* if you the driver cannot keep up, which means you need a steering quickener :)

Brakes only slow you down, especially in underpowered junk. If you can get around with steering instead of letting off throttle or adding brake, then you *will* be faster.

[I Like It Sideways]

I forgot to point out that FWD has one wonderful advantage. As long as you have enough steering, it doesn't matter what the car's attitude is. Just point the front tires in the direction you want to go and the rear tires will follow. So all this attitude-adjusting LFB/handbrake/etc is only for if you run out of steering *or* if you the driver cannot keep up, which means you need a steering quickener :)

Brakes only slow you down, especially in underpowered junk. If you can get around with steering instead of letting off throttle or adding brake, then you *will* be faster.

If I enter a corner too hot, and too sideways, LFB helps me get the car back onto a better line and under better control.

Other than that, I used LFB to keep me on the line, so I can keep my right foot on the throttle to keep the tires spinning to keep the same slip angle on longer wider stuff.
Letting off the throttle is usually not an option, because when I do, the car will begin to understeer in some conditions. It just depends on how sideways I am.

In this picture, I'm on the verge of understeer, so I am feathering the brakes to keep wheel spin under control, and keep the nose pointed where I want to go.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2394/2255493482_ae3666101c.jpg

[SoCalBoomer]

Well, how about an 88 Civic Hatch DX for underpowered junk? Dual Port 1500cc POS motor (until I got a SOHC ZC, which still only had 95ft/lbs torque) - and even with a screwed up brake system (waaaaay too much front bias right now. . .need to put in the right bias . . . should never put in Integra booster and MC without changing the bias. . .duh)

I think I said that it will typically be different on different surfaces - for instance on tarmac it doesn't seem to do diddly for me, in the ACR or in the Honda. Fun, but not much good. I hope I said it. :D

But on loose dirt/sand/mud, it CAN help pivot the car. When done correctly (i.e. NOT using it to make the turn, but using it to accelerate the turn) it can be a great helper.

Honestly - I've read stuff about it. Nearly all of it is written by tarmac drivers - where it does not apply. Talk with rally drivers, at least out here (I have a hard time talking with rally drivers that aren't here. . .not quite clairvoyant or telepathic yet! :lol: ) and LFB is considered a HUGE thing. Ross Bently said it in your quote: Now, rally, slalom or racetrack driving are a different story. Left-foot-braking in rallying is almost a must - it is used to help pitch the car into a turn.

We teach it at length at the CRS Rally Schools. Mike Gibeault discusses it, how it affects weight transfer, how it can accelerate a turn, etc. in his lecture sessions. Michel Hoche-Mong has pretty much defined our method of teaching it in the car. And it has proven very effective - those of us who do it win; those who don't do not. Those who don't know how to do it do MUCH better after they learn.

What can I say - I'm not a professional (although I wish. . .don't we all!) but I have a bad record of teaching LFB to those who end up beating me with it! :lol: HATE it when that happens. I guess it's a good record for them. . .just bad for me. :D

[noisycricket]

Rallycross is not rally.

And, driving the same car (CRX), I was getting my ass handed to me when I was trying to LFB around sweepers, when the owner said nah, just use the handbrake. Then I followed his advice and got 7 sec or so faster than him on a 50-odd second course. :D

PS - Next week I'm finally putting a hydraulic handbrake... in my RX-7. Should help immensely in the tighter stuff. Plus, I can wire it in to the 2-step and put a linelock in the clutch line, and have handbrake-actuated launching. (Oh yes. And I have all the bits to do it, too)

[SoCalBoomer]

Strange, you're right - Rallycross is not Rally.

But that's the closest that Ross got to it, it's on dirt, etc.

#1 - If you don't like LFB, don't use it.

#2 - If you haven't tried LFB, have someone who likes it show you how it works and teach you so you can try it. (I don't think it's constructive to have someone who doesn't like it try to teach you. . .) If you don't like it or don't have a light-bulb go off over your head, go back to #1 above.

#3 - If you then like it, use it. See if your times get faster - if they do, great. If they don't, examine how you're using it - maybe you're relying on it too much, maybe you're doing it too hard. . .whatever. I tell the people I was instructing that it's a dance - if you're using LFB to brutalize your partner, you're not dancing. I had to learn these lessons as well. . . just about any new toy you get, you tend to over-use. . . :D It's natural.

#4 - if you just can't get the hang of it, then go to #1. If it makes you faster or more comfortable or more predictable (all the reasons I use it) then carry on!

I guess it's not for everyone. Around here, you don't get to the top without being able to do it (at least in FWD - any FWD). But if you can win without it, kudos. :headbang:

If you're in SoCal and would like to play around with it, let me know. :eek:

Just DO NOT BEAT ME IN MY OWN CLASS with it!!! :nono

ROFL. :lol2:

[Drew84]

I try it when I can, I just don't have nice sweeping on ramps on my way to work.:cry: You know what probably helps too, is when we go karting, your forced to used your left foot for braking. I don't know anybody that uses it for Auto-x, it just doesn't seam to do much. I don't know about track driving maybe it will tighten your line back up? On the lose stuff it rotates the Mirage at least, very quickly. I've never rally-x any other FWD car and the STi you simply add more throttle to rotate.

[Azewaldo]

I just started practicing/using LFB a couple of months ago. I used it at Ridgecrest and Glen Helen, and I know it has improved my performance. For me, LFB is a much better way to control a turn than just lifting the throttle (or then RFB). If I go into a turn and I'm plowing or going wide, I press down some LFB and it brings the car in more. And it always gives me more oversteer, never increases understeer in my WRX wagon. This is all on dirt, mind you.

Before you try it out in a hot lap at a rally-x, get the feeling of LFB first on the street (as others have said). Pick a red light or stop sign (not a turn or onramp) where no one is around/in-front/behind, and brake with your left instead of your right. Get to the point where you're braking comfortably, almost as good as your right (I'm not there, yet). LFB and downshifting on the street will also get you used to switching between the brake & clutch, which comes in real handy at those faster rally-x courses (or in an STi at any rally-x).

[MIATA?]

I just started practicing/using LFB a couple of months ago. I used it at Ridgecrest and Glen Helen, and I know it has improved my performance. For me, LFB is a much better way to control a turn than just lifting the throttle (or then RFB). If I go into a turn and I'm plowing or going wide, I press down some LFB and it brings the car in more. And it always gives me more oversteer, never increases understeer in my WRX wagon. This is all on dirt, mind you.

Before you try it out in a hot lap at a rally-x, get the feeling of LFB first on the street (as others have said). Pick a red light or stop sign (not a turn or onramp) where no one is around/in-front/behind, and brake with your left instead of your right. Get to the point where you're braking comfortably, almost as good as your right (I'm not there, yet). LFB and downshifting on the street will also get you used to switching between the brake & clutch, which comes in real handy at those faster rally-x courses (or in an STi at any rally-x).

Some people get it, and some don't............Azewaldo gets it.

[Drew84]

I get how to do it.

[UP2MTNS]

I get how to do it.

hey Drew, i don't think that was specifically directed at you.....however, i don't understand your reluctance to practice off the rallyX course?

ok....you race in a mirage and DD an sti.....who cares.....clutch brake gas....they both got them. :)

no sweeping on ramps to/from work.....so? this isn't about using proper 'LFB' (while also on the gas) on the street.....just use your left foot to brake...every time, all the time (with your right foot off the gas! haha)....its just about getting the basic mechanics down. you need to make takin your left foot up and over the clutch and onto the brake an unconscious motion. you need to go from left foot on brake to the clutch back to the brake w/o thinking about it. (otherwise.....LFB can't help you go faster if your worried about where your feet are in a race)

having the LFB 'light' go off and then using only my left foot for daily driving for two weeks is what made me competitive last year....i was a complete rallyx noob....and at my first race ever i also did the 'meant to cutch but slammed on the break instead' rookie move......twice. :)

today, in traffic or in a race, i can use either foot to brake w/o thinking about it anymore.

[noisycricket]

#1 - If you don't like LFB, don't use it.


I like it, and use it extensively. Enough so that I'm fairly proficient at downshifting without using the clutch.

#3 - If you then like it, use it. See if your times get faster - if they do, great. If they don't, examine how you're using it - maybe you're relying on it too much, maybe you're doing it too hard. . .whatever.

Again, it greatly depends on the car and the course. If the course is long straights and short corners, great. If it's constant corners and the car doesn't rotate any other way, then you do what you gotta do. If it's a slow tight course, you're better off just using the handbrake.

We mainly run slow tight courses. Basically, *not* rally. :)

I guess it's not for everyone. Around here, you don't get to the top without being able to do it (at least in FWD - any FWD). But if you can win without it, kudos. :headbang:

A properly setup FWD doesn't need the handbrake *or* LFB, even on a slow tight course. I learned that one too :) when I got out of my MkII Golf and into a better set up yet still SF legal MkIII. Used my footwork on it and nearly spun out on the first corner. After that I only used the brakes to, you know, *slow down*, and the car would start rotating all by itself before the corner, and I just had to keep up with the steering wheel and throttle.

The driver of that car doesn't LFB either, and he takes 1st *overall* often enough.

[Drew84]

hey Drew, i don't think that was specifically directed at you.....however, i don't understand your reluctance to practice off the rallyX course?

ok....you race in a mirage and DD an sti.....who cares.....clutch brake gas....they both got them. :)

no sweeping on ramps to/from work.....so? this isn't about using proper 'LFB' (while also on the gas) on the street.....just use your left foot to brake...every time, all the time (with your right foot off the gas! haha)....its just about getting the basic mechanics down. you need to make takin your left foot up and over the clutch and onto the brake an unconscious motion. you need to go from left foot on brake to the clutch back to the brake w/o thinking about it. (otherwise.....LFB can't help you go faster if your worried about where your feet are in a race)

having the LFB 'light' go off and then using only my left foot for daily driving for two weeks is what made me competitive last year....i was a complete rallyx noob....and at my first race ever i also did the 'meant to cutch but slammed on the break instead' rookie move......twice. :)

today, in traffic or in a race, i can use either foot to brake w/o thinking about it anymore.

I tried it a bit this morning. I think I've go the feel down. In hindsight its probably a better to learn on the STi the brakes are so sensitive that it requires a very light touch. I would say the mirage has and inch of free play before they engage, the STi is almost instant. I'm very light on the brakes as is and made to to 35k before I changed the pads.

[UP2MTNS]

nice......btw, sorry if my post seemed short/curt....i'm posting from my moto-q while on vacation in Tahoe.....talk about addicted!!

once you get the mechanics down, that allows u to focus on 'technique'

[rollo]

Wow.. the LFB thread came back.. with sensible discussion and not a haha, a lol or a j/k in sight. I think the DI I signed up for has returned :D

So I guess what we're saying here is that the LFB technique has two stages:
1. Teach your left foot to be able to push the brake as accurately and with as much control as your right foot pushes the gas
2. Learn how, why and when to use LFB in a competitive situation. And when not to.

Step 1 you can definitely learn on the street. Just start when there's nobody around cos you _will_ push the brake too hard to begin with, and if you're in traffic you'll get rear-ended.

Step 2 for me is a lot trickier since as we can see from the posts, each car has wildly differing characteristics at the limit.

You could split Step 2 into numerous sub-steps - drivelines, surfaces, tyres, engine characteristics, torque bias in AWD cars, NA vs turbo etc.

A SoCal local who is a veteran of Japanese dirt trials (amongst many other things) mentioned the turbo point a while back. It's relevant in many rallyx situations - keeping the throttle open and the turbo spinning while you brake to adjust cornering attitude is an excellent way to get a fast(er) exit speed. 1000rpm can be the difference between bogging and staying on boost. In this case, LFB is more accurately "not RFB". Your right foot is busy keeping the lag at bay, so if you want to brake it's Hobson's choice. If you see what I mean.

The other thing (which has been mentioned already) is reaction time. You have three inputs to the car - brake, gas and steering. The clutch is not an input as such. It makes perfect sense to have each input available immediately - so a foot on brake and/or gas, and hands on the wheel.

There's a DVD called "Extreme Driving" which is set at John Haugland's Arctic Rally School. His take is that you should only have your foot on the clutch when you're changing gear - the rest of time (the 'default' foot position) - your left foot should be on or over the brake. btw, that DVD is the only instructional video I've ever found on loose surface driving, and it's a really good one IMO.

[SoCalBoomer]

A properly setup FWD doesn't need the handbrake *or* LFB, even on a slow tight course. I learned that one too :) when I got out of my MkII Golf and into a better set up yet still SF legal MkIII. Used my footwork on it and nearly spun out on the first corner. After that I only used the brakes to, you know, *slow down*, and the car would start rotating all by itself before the corner, and I just had to keep up with the steering wheel and throttle.

The driver of that car doesn't LFB either, and he takes 1st *overall* often enough.

Well, I did say 'around here' - I cant' say what your conditions are like, what your tire restrictions are, anything at all about what you have over there in the NE - been a LONG time since I've been out your way, and I wasn't driving an FWD then. :D

[LowGripMaxFun]

Oh man left foot braking is so much easier on my STI than my wrx! The brake pedal feel with the brembos is sooo nice. Theres no initial free play...just nice firm predictable pressure from the get go. Can't wait for a rallyx or autox to test it out. :muhaha:

[RA Limited]

i know that w/ the 4/2 pots on my STi LFB helps a LOT in certain situations with low front grip... just a little tap on the brakes (while on the throttle pretty heavy in 2nd or 3rd) and i'm back into oversteer! So much fun.

[boostedlegacy87]

Yea i tend to use a different method to stop plowing in my Subaru. its really hard to explain and it probably wouldn't work in a WRX because my car has so much body roll, but i use weight transfer by oversteering quickly which puts the weight to the outerside of my car and allows me to line up for the next strait. i may have just sounded like a retard because its hard to explain. my car is an automatic though so i have never wanted to try left foot braking in it.

[SportsCarMag]

Here is some LFB footage:lol2:: http://youtube.com/watch?v=QVhTnOrjgNE

Not from our RallyCross car, this was at an autocross, but you get the idea.

[409industries]

wow, the tire gauge... LOL

Heres some LFB

jWl5N-X2xyA

[rollo]

Nice vid A. I've been trying to figure out how to get a decent pedal-box shot (too many Option videos :D ) but it's real tricky to do well.

Interesting thing I've noticed on the Option vids is that whilst they always have a pedal camera inset, I don't ever remember seeing any LFB, even from Tsuchiya or Orido or the other guys who you'd totally expect to have that in their bag of tricks. Maybe I just haven't been watching closely enough.

[noisycricket]

They tend to drive cars that are decently well set up to begin with. That and they are good enough drivers that they can time turbo lag. (But of course the OMGJDM stuff they drive has no turbo lag because turbo lag is something they install in American market cars to keep us from having the good stuff)

There's your haha j/k lol.

[Su||y]

Tried this out last night, a lot less understeer lobster!

[worldrallynut]

I find it too uncomfortable to left foot brake. I wear size 11 6E (extra wide) and my right foot already sits at an angle in the impreza to keep from rubbing on the center console. The only way to get my left foot on the brake is to pick my heel up off the floor and raise it above my right foot to push straight in with my whole leg. Once my heel comes off the ground, my leg bounces around quite a bit and there is no control.

Anyone have tips for guys with big feet?

[rollo]

I find it too uncomfortable to left foot brake. I wear size 11 6E (extra wide) and my right foot already sits at an angle in the impreza to keep from rubbing on the center console. The only way to get my left foot on the brake is to pick my heel up off the floor and raise it above my right foot to push straight in with my whole leg. Once my heel comes off the ground, my leg bounces around quite a bit and there is no control.

Anyone have tips for guys with big feet?

a) Wear Vans (great for driving)
b) Learn to LFB with your foot off the floor :)

Seriously.. I'm pretty sure that's what I do. I'll have to check.

Size 11.5 here, also wide feet.

[worldrallynut]

I'll have to see if I fit in vans now. I usually don't fit in anything besides new balance.

Maybe I'm just lazy and am the only one who drives with their heels on the floor?

[RA Limited]

i usuallly drive with my heels on the floor, but i think i normally LFB w/ my left foot not touching the floor. I feel i have more precise control that way.

[UP2MTNS]

I drive with my gas foot firmly on the floor (easier to control that way), but LFB with my foot in the air....but typically I'm standing on the brakes if I'm using my left foot to brake.......subaru brakes require that if you're on the brake and gas at the same time (Because of their brake booster design).

[WRR]

I'm with Jon...

my right foot heel is on the floor but my left foot moves all around mostly in the air (except for the nice long straights in Daves & Louie's courses - hint/hint)

[rollo]

So I checked last night (in big work shoes) and yeah, that is how I've been doing it too ('floating' left foot). But it actually worked quite well with the left heel on the floor. I can see it being good for long sweepers where you know you're gonna be in the same gear for the whole thing, or slaloms, stuff like that. For a quick "unsettle the car" stab, probably not worth it, but then you're not looking for a great deal of finesse there anyway.

As far as fitting my feet in, I noticed that I do usually have the right side of my foot up against the trim in the footwell, and that my heel seems to sit between the gas and brake so my foot is at an angle, which (I'm guessing) allows more space for the left foot.

Good question! I love this kind of discussion.

Here's Walter Röhrl in a rally video of terrifying proportions:
Ts29KKhKXds

He seems to have his heels down and feet angled when he's LFBing.

Incidentally, I believe he was the one that said that to be mentally able to rally in those days, he had to forget that the people were people, and just think of them like any other scenery :shock:

[rollo]

Just found this about Röhrl:

http://omor.com/STi/archives/2005/10/walter_rohrls_h.html
Walter came to left foot braking relatively late in his career. In his
book "The Walter Rohrl Diary" (thoroughly recommended) he says that he
only learnt about left-foot braking when he went to Audi & he couldn't
qwell the quattro's understeer. Stig Blomquist (the left-foot master!)
took him out in a recce quattro & demonstrated the technique. Walt
claims that it took him quite a while to refine it because he kept
changing the pressure on the brake pedal while he pumped the gas. He
learnt that the secret is to retain a constant pressure on the brake
pedal while varying the throttle.

Interesting..

That page also has a link to a larger version of the video.

[WRR]

learnt

on another subject - my 'somewhat' english wife uses that word regularly and I have always told her that it's not a real word... hmmmm

but to address the big feet issues, the Neon has a really tiny pedal box configuation (even smaller then the already small Impreza version) and I sometimes don't end up on the pedal that I think I am on.. especially after not driving it for a bit but the required finesse seems to return pretty quikly - I HIGHLY recommend some driving shoes - I got some $30 Puma replica driving shoes from Famous Footwear and they made a huge differance in my ablility to fit my fattish size 11 feet into the Neon's econo box foot well...

[saturn]

question:

wouldn't braking while throttling be bad for the differentials ?

.. sorry if this has been explained before.

[WRR]

well....

none of this high speed dirt stuff is really good for the car to begin with :mrgreen:
but, I have never heard that the diffs take an extra beating from LFB style of driving... although, yes, it probably makes sense to up the service schedule on the diff fluid if you find yourself using it excessively...

I know that my brake lights are on pretty much from the time I leave the starting line... now granted, a little different in that I have a dedicated car for this abuse, it is FWD and turbo so I need to keep the boost up no matter if I need to slow down or 'upset' the car before a corner or whatever so I am pretty heavy on the brakes (and the gas) for most of the run - I have come in after a long rally-x with the rotors steaming from the mud and all but glowing (they might have been glowing if it was dark out... which would be cool in itself)

so yes, it is a little bit abusive but no, it does not seem that hard on the diffs...

[rollo]

Yeah, I wouldn't expect LFB to be unusually hard on the diffs. In the end, you're just applying drag to the wheels - the diffs are designed to take that. I suppose maybe, if your brake balance was really out, or if you had some kind of crazy "apply the brakes to individual wheels" traction control going on, and it didn't know how to deal with loose surfaces? I dunno.

FWIW I change my diff/tranny fluid every 15k (30k is recommended for 'normal' use, whatever that is in a car like mine).

As for "learnt", yes it's a real word. The quote was some other presumably English dude, but yeah we do say it. "Dreamt" as well. But, you know, do you say "sleeped" or "slept"? Yeah.. thought so...

:D

[Subie Gal]

I cannot rally w/o LFBraking

however,
I find that in mud/snow I do not need and do not do it at all

Use the weight transfer of the vehicle to rotate the car

In the dry, sand, gravel - defo cannot get by w/out LFBraking

This applies to both of the rally cars I have competed in - FWD and AWD

Jamie http://www.subiegal.com/subiegal-smilie.png (http://www.subiegal.com/)

[PONCH]

If you want to get tricky, try ''Heel-Toe''.I burnt my stock brakes learning how, but its worth it.

[RA Limited]

ponch, unless i'm misunderstanding you, you're thinking of something completely different from LFB, and you might even be incorrect in what you believe to be heel-toe.

[PONCH]

heel on the gas w/ toe "taping'' brake while LF hits the clutch?

[rollo]

Heel-toe is (in theory) braking with your toe while blipping the throttle with your heel to match the revs for a smoother/more controlled downshift.

Personally I brake with one half of my foot and blip the throttle with the other half.. I'd need double-jointed ankles to blip with my heel.

Ponch your technique sounds damn difficult to do, but if it works for you then go for it. You're no slouch on the dirt so you're doing something right (when you're not mutiliating cones anyway :D ).

[PONCH]

Heel-toe is (in theory) braking with your toe while blipping the throttle with your heel to match the revs for a smoother/more controlled downshift.

Personally I brake with one half of my foot and blip the throttle with the other half.. I'd need double-jointed ankles to blip with my heel.

Ponch your technique sounds damn difficult to do, but if it works for you then go for it. You're no slouch on the dirt so you're doing something right (when you're not mutiliating cones anyway :D ).

I tried heel on gas, didnt work.I can only "split" the pedals on smooth roads.....my feet are small and nimble.

[me_jimmy]

holy crap! thestupidvolvos "TCS" went wild when i LFB'd it, that was dramatic! i even hit a bird on the way home. conclusion: you can turn off the anti spinn with the TCS button but the tcs will keep pissing you off.

[WRR]

^^ many of the current 'safety' devices for traction/ABS/stability are not really off even when turned off - we are from the government and we are here to help protect you from yourself :)

[me_jimmy]

saving me from myself almost put me into a tree. i left plenty of space for myself everywhere except for the inside of the turn

[snicker]

i find heel-toe comes naturally but i have big feet. double clutch while in the heat of the moment of a race is what gets me. Also, have you guys ever run in to this, sometimes when i try LFB I still plow a little, if i hit the same turn with less steering angle, it works out. I think in the dirt alot of my turn in issues have been over dramatic steering on my part. These types of habits have been hard to break but I will eventually.

[twohlix]

yep, if any of you have been to team oneil (i know aaron is going soon) the first thing they teach you is that you dont need as much steering input to turn. Then they make you press on the brake left footed style.

[pigpen]

too much steering input is common problem, and not just in the dirt. i am still fighting this problem every track day i attend...and every rallyX. it's a hard habit to break: when i want to turn more, i try to steer more...

Heel-toe is (in theory) braking with your toe while blipping the throttle with your heel to match the revs for a smoother/more controlled downshift.

Personally I brake with one half of my foot and blip the throttle with the other half.. I'd need double-jointed ankles to blip with my heel.

most people heel-toe the way you do. piloti actually designs their shoes for the style of heel-toe you mention, by wrapping the sole of the shoe up the side on the outside of your right foot.

[RA Limited]

i put the ball of my right foot on the brake, twist my foot around so that it points to the clutch pedal, and i blip the throttle w/ my heel. I have size 10.5 feet. I find this has always worked very well for me in my various Hondas, Nissans, Suzukis, and Subarus.

And yes, i have also learned that too much steering input is a bad thing. One of the things that has helped me the most in my driving lately is to be smoother with my inputs- throttle, steering, braking. Everything. Smooth it all out, you will probably be faster through a course.

[rollo]

Too true. In rallyx at least, once I'm at full lock, the corner is officially considered a bust. Doesn't take long to get to full lock on an Evo though. What do they say? Turn with the wheel, steer with the throttle? :D

[RA Limited]

I'm the same way- if i'm at full lock, i'm doing something (or a number of things haha) wrong, and it's over lol. I do most of my positioning with throttle and small steering inputs, tossing the weight around.

[WRR]

sometimes when i try LFB I still plow a little, if i hit the same turn with less steering angle, it works out..


I think that your plowing is mostly a 'corner set-up' issue... practice, practice and then during a race, practice some more! similar to what you describe, if I come into a corner too slow and try to LFB it the whole thing is ugly... real ugly! but if I can carry some speed then my LFB cornering is a thing of beauty (well.. ok once :o) - keep the tail loose and things fall into place - a little steering input and a lot of brake input and the tail comes right around....

[snicker]

I've noticed ( thanks to video), that when I think my slip angle is to much it's just fine, one of the bigges steering related prolms we face is "exxagerating everything", Isometimes think I'm too sideways and need t bring i back when in fac wen i watch a replay of it I was at thecorrect angle for the next turn, or I think i'm coming on a corner too fast and feel i need to slowdown when in fact a faster corner entry speed would have given me the needed amount of weight transfer ( combined with LFB) to fluidly move thru the corner. Forgetin how you drive day to day and applying the correct techniques off road is the battle.

[RA Limited]

snicker, i can relate to you there (but i don't have video to prove it to me haha)- i think for me, it just comes down to me being a wus in my street-driven car, and not feeling comfortable really pushing the limits in some conditions. :)