The Scandinavian Flick

[Storz]

I spent some time earlier this evening in one of the huge CMU parking lots (its spring break so they are empty) trying to get the Scandinavian flick down....and dang it....I cant get it. Any tips??

[I Like It Sideways]

-When coming into a flick... it is usually when you are already slowing down to enter a turn
-Be easy with the steering wheel. When you turn the wheel inititally, make sure to be subtle enough not to break the front tires loose, otherwise the car won't follow them.
-Once you turn the car in the opposite direction you intend to go, then you can be a little bit more forceful with the steering wheel in the other direction to toss the car and transfer the weight.
-When turning the wheel back in the intended direction, lift off the gas a bit to help transfer the weight. Touching the brakes would have a similar effect. There are two points during a flick that you can let off the gas to help shave speed and get the car rotated. Right after you initially turn the wheel, and then right after you bring the steering wheel back in the other direciton.

I hope what i wrote matches what you are supposed do... I'm trying to imagine it in my head. It's much easier to do it than to explain it I guess

Watch these videos if you get the chance.
My flick on gravel (http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~esherwoo/Chicane.mpg)

WRX flick at pikes peak (http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=548295641)

[409industries]

I have seen that pikes peak video before, and its one of the coolest ones ive seen.

Your video is pretty awesome too. Im planning on going out to the desert this weekend, im going to give it a shot!

Have you ever seen that video of Gigi Galli? not really a scandanivian flick, but damn cool

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1264437149385488840&q=gigi+galli

(@ 0:46)

[I Like It Sideways]

Oh yeah... I love that video. By far the most amazing hairpin I've ever seen.

[Rallycat66]

So Storz...

Where is it going wrong for you? Not rotating back into the corner, sliding wide, what?

I put a link to a good video from the early 80's in the Pendulum discussion in the motorsports forum that 409industries started if you're interested. Breaks down what happens during a pendulum turn pretty well.

Tim

[kainam00]

I think we just need to practice this some more Ryan, I'm having a hell of a time doing it too.

[Storz]

I think we just need to practice this some more Ryan, I'm having a hell of a time doing it too.

Tonight - top secret rally playground "south" we'll do it up

[UP2MTNS]

to simplify this, lets not worry about coming in hot and having to brake....

for a 90 to 180 degree left turn....

BEFORE you 'think' you have to turn, start turning to the right (this is the hardest thing to do, it goes against your daily driving habit). as soon as the car starts turning right, crank it left (look at and aim for your apex). You'll feel the back end start to pendulum, to help it whip around, punch the throttle and turn back to the right (opposite lock)...the front wheels will pull you through the start to middle of the turn, and the rear wheels will break loose and you'll feel it 'flick' around.

The more throttle you give it, the faster your rear end will whip around (for 180 degree turns), or you can modulate the throttle (for longer sweepers. Left foot braking comes in here as well, if you're going wide, tap LFB and it'll pull you in). If you're too tight (and about to hit a cone!!) more throttle will push you to the outside of the corner.

Next:
The tricky part is the timing on letting back up on the throttle and start turning left again. This will slow down your rotation, and the front wheels will grab more...at this time, you're done with your turn and you just need to get the wheels to grab and straighten out the car, and then back on the gas. (again, too much gas or too late letting up and you'll slide wayy outside).

obviously the road conditions and surface type will dictate a lot of this timing, how hard you turn the wheel, etc.

This past weekend at Portland it was like driving on ice...everything was lock to lock for every corner (my sides are still sore). We had to start turn 2-3 car lengths before the turn even started. I have some video of it, I'm just having trouble uploading from my camera.

[Storz]

^^ Great tips, I'm looking forward to seeing the video

[UndercoverObbie]

Awesome tips, UP2, that's very helpful!

[409industries]

The flick is a very difficult technique to perform / master. Ive been working on it for a while now and still am very inconsistent.

[UP2MTNS]

The flick is a very difficult technique to perform / master. Ive been working on it for a while now and still am very inconsistent.

I'm definitely getting better at it.....in 1st gear. I can't imagine doing it in 3rd gear, 6500rpms, 65mph, around a narrow, blind corner with rocks and trees and ****..... :shock:

[I Like It Sideways]

The flick is a very difficult technique to perform / master. Ive been working on it for a while now and still am very inconsistent.

I'm definitely getting better at it.....in 1st gear. I can't imagine doing it in 3rd gear, 6500rpms, 65mph, around a narrow, blind corner with rocks and trees and ****..... :shock:

I haven't really seen the flick used at such high speeds. Its usually used to shave off speed entering a sharper turn. I think because of the nature of the technique, the back end would really want to swing around if you did it at higher speeds
it'd be fun to give it a shot though!

[UP2MTNS]

The flick is a very difficult technique to perform / master. Ive been working on it for a while now and still am very inconsistent.

I'm definitely getting better at it.....in 1st gear. I can't imagine doing it in 3rd gear, 6500rpms, 65mph, around a narrow, blind corner with rocks and trees and ****..... :shock:

I haven't really seen the flick used at such high speeds. Its usually used to shave off speed entering a sharper turn. I think because of the nature of the technique, the back end would really want to swing around if you did it at higher speeds
it'd be fun to give it a shot though!

look at the mini-movie in 409industries' signature....I'm pretty sure that's a high speed flick. look at how much the car turns BEFORE the turn....by the time he actually hits the curve the car is already 90degrees and ready for the straight away.

[409industries]

The flick is a very difficult technique to perform / master. Ive been working on it for a while now and still am very inconsistent.

I'm definitely getting better at it.....in 1st gear. I can't imagine doing it in 3rd gear, 6500rpms, 65mph, around a narrow, blind corner with rocks and trees and ****..... :shock:

I haven't really seen the flick used at such high speeds. Its usually used to shave off speed entering a sharper turn. I think because of the nature of the technique, the back end would really want to swing around if you did it at higher speeds
it'd be fun to give it a shot though!

look at the mini-movie in 409industries' signature....I'm pretty sure that's a high speed flick. look at how much the car turns BEFORE the turn....by the time he actually hits the curve the car is already 90degrees and ready for the straight away.

I think i would **** in my pants trying to do a flick at like 70mph on a narrow road, on snow...... in the dark....... with people watching me....

[I Like It Sideways]

The flick is a very difficult technique to perform / master. Ive been working on it for a while now and still am very inconsistent.

I'm definitely getting better at it.....in 1st gear. I can't imagine doing it in 3rd gear, 6500rpms, 65mph, around a narrow, blind corner with rocks and trees and ****..... :shock:

I haven't really seen the flick used at such high speeds. Its usually used to shave off speed entering a sharper turn. I think because of the nature of the technique, the back end would really want to swing around if you did it at higher speeds
it'd be fun to give it a shot though!

look at the mini-movie in 409industries' signature....I'm pretty sure that's a high speed flick. look at how much the car turns BEFORE the turn....by the time he actually hits the curve the car is already 90degrees and ready for the straight away.

Its not detailed enough to show a flick... Using a flick to get sideways isn't the fastest way to do it, although he may have thrown the wheel away and then back again quickly. But turn-in with those cars is much more precise and don't require a flick to get the car to rotate

[bergdh]

the mini movie is definetly a high speed flick, look close and you can see the front wheels going back and forth making small adjustments to keep the car tracking. You have to look at each corner too....see how he gets the front left wheel down in the semi rut / on camber portion of the turn. It helps to draw the car in tight and track around the turn, use those ruts to your advantage. One of my favorite turns out here is a road that snakes back and forth with on camber banks that pull you in tight. Its so fun to get the car sliding back and forth! Carry on!!

[Not All There]

you can kinda see my wheels when i flick it a few times in this old video of mine, this was my first official rallyX

http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=5687535

would have been perfect but i definitely slammed a cone or two haha, better a cone then a tree. This is pretty much me just having fun with the car, not really being competitive, just the first time i got to really beat on it and get a feel for it. RallyX is a great break in for new drivers of their new cars! :twisted:

[Blix666]

that event looks like it was awesome. i wish i coulda been there for that one. hopefully i can be @ the next stafford event.

[RallyImp05]

i have it down as to where i can do it at about 30-40mph on a 90degree, but it took some work, and i must admit, i hit the berm on the outside more than a few times. work your way up, and be glad you have a parking lot to practice on. i learned on a 1 1/2 lane dirt road...

[Blix666]

that is a very interesting pic in your sig imp....i don't get it at all lol

[RallyImp05]

the whale vag front end on the 06-07's...

[IneedRS]

I think i would **** in my pants trying to do a flick at like 70mph on a narrow road, on snow...... in the dark....... with people watching me....

LOL!
I think I just **** my pants laughing at that. :confused:

[valetudospang]

Ive heard Mcrae says its not as necessary as it once was. Because the newer cars are getting a lot more grip and are going were you point them. He says on occasion he will still uses it though, but that it does usually produce a slower time.

[rollo]

Ive heard Mcrae says its not as necessary as it once was. Because the newer cars are getting a lot more grip and are going were you point them. He says on occasion he will still uses it though, but that it does usually produce a slower time.

Yeah, that was on that series of YouTube vids I think. OTOH, he was talking about top level WRC cars with all their fancy active diffs and so forth. For less complicated machinery like we rock - and especially at the speeds we're doing in rallycross - the flick is still a very useful tool. IMHO.

[UP2MTNS]

Yeah, that was on that series of YouTube vids I think. OTOH, he was talking about top level WRC cars with all their fancy active diffs and so forth. For less complicated machinery like we rock - and especially at the speeds we're doing in rallycross - the flick is still a very useful tool. IMHO.

yeah, all that means is he doesn't have to do the first 3 three steps of the flick to get his car sideways in a turn.

remember the long flying finish at laughlin? at 60mph, it doesn't take much to get your car sideways....and then suddenly backwards....haha.

[rollo]

JV5 I think? But yeah.. 60mph.. brakes.. sideways.. bouncing... ohmythoserocksareapproachingfast.. and a full 180, ah that's better, now I can't see what I'm hurtling towards...

:D

[UP2MTNS]

JV5 I think? But yeah.. 60mph.. brakes.. sideways.. bouncing... ohmythoserocksareapproachingfast.. and a full 180, ah that's better, now I can't see what I'm hurtling towards...

:D

oh yeah, JV. so much driving between JV and Laughlin....they blurr.

[thatguymike]

From the king himself
http://youtube.com/watch?v=hwqmZFhI0co

I find it hilarious that he does it all while having a conversation with his wife. Wish he were still here!

[409industries]

From the king himself
http://youtube.com/watch?v=hwqmZFhI0co

I find it hilarious that he does it all while having a conversation with his wife. Wish he were still here!

Great find. I mean when he does that flick, the car is "loaded" the opposite direction for so long before he whips it back. For a newb like myself looking at that, it takes a lot of balls and skill!

[thatguymike]

Great find. I mean when he does that flick, the car is "loaded" the opposite direction for so long before he whips it back. For a newb like myself looking at that, it takes a lot of balls and skill!

Yep, all the other Mcrae "how to's" are pretty interesting & informative to watch too, especially the left foot braking one.

[Judau]

Man I need to practice this... I think everyone who own an Impreza should learn this just because. :D Too bad the snow's gone now... guess I'll have to wait for a rally-x.

[albascoob]

From the king himself
http://youtube.com/watch?v=hwqmZFhI0co

I find it hilarious that he does it all while having a conversation with his wife. Wish he were still here!

that's not his wife...

it's Penny Mallory
http://www.pennymallory.co.uk/

[04trailsti]

i got it down very quickly. both hand brake and the flick. not being cocky about it but it helps alot when you got the power too.in my opinion the goal is to have teh nose pointed in the direction you wanna exit the corner in the first 1/3 of the corner. these are vids on a 160 degree corner.

e-brake
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bf-EICdkBkU

flick
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bH5Oyd6O30s

[I Like It Sideways]

Looks like you have the flick down, for the most part. The sidewaysness was a blast to watch.

And with the e-brake, try releasing it, and getting back on the throttle sooner. Looked decent though.

[sebhockey]

Keep in mind that a flick is only really useful when you have a 180 or back to back turns such that you need to keep the backend loose. For a standard 90 degree turn it is much faster to just drive it, so if you're going to practice the flick try it doing a 180 around a cone. A 180 around a cone is harder anyhow.

[UP2MTNS]

Keep in mind that a flick is only really useful when you have a 180 or back to back turns such that you need to keep the backend loose. For a standard 90 degree turn it is much faster to just drive it, so if you're going to practice the flick try it doing a 180 around a cone. A 180 around a cone is harder anyhow.

Steve, I hope you're kidding.

first, from the master:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=hwqmZFhI0co

snap steer is useful for back to back turns.....you 'flick' to envoke the oversteer at the beginning of the turns.

to scandinavian flick into a hairpin 180 is pretty hard (at rally cross speeds). I know cause I never use my e-brake on 180's.

____________________________

I can't seem to find it, but I know I read that that the origin of the Scandinavian flick (in scandinavia, go figure) was designed around braking AND turning the car, allowing you to take the best line w/o overshooting it. Having your car sideways in a turn is the same thing as locking up your brakes but not losing the ability to turn/control the car....when you're sideways you lose a lot of speed, quickly...but because you have the car going in the direction you need to go, you can stay on the throttle longer, brake later, and start accelerating sooner, thus being faster.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Scandinavian_flick.svg/360px-Scandinavian_flick.svg.png
If each car is a 'step'....so 9 'steps' in this turn....so if we were to 'flick' it, steps 1-3 you're still on the gas as you steer left in order to go right.

Step 4 is let up on the gas, weight transfers forward, and start steering right BEFORE you enter the turn.

Steps 5, 6 and 7 is get back on the gas and throttle modulation/LFB to control the attitude of the car through the turn. Notice you're not really in the turn until slightly after step 6. These same steps is where you're sideways the most, opposite lock, and quickly losing speed. At no point are you breaking to control your speed....being sideways is doing that. This is why driving like this is so tricky....the faster you're going, the earlier you have to turn and get sideways. This is very difficult to pick up because we're so used to turning when we have to turn, not way before the turn. This was a major 'light bulb' moment when I figured this out at Paul Elkund's school.

Notice at step 6 the car is almost facing the direction of the end of the turn.....nothing left to do now but get back on the gas......so for step 7-8 you should be off the brake completely, straightening out the wheel, and looking at the next turn or opening it up for the straight away and shifting into the next gear.


NOW.....if we took the same line by 'just driving it' (make all the cars parallel to the red line in the diagram above, no sideways action)....you'd have to make sure you're at your 'cornering speed' before you even got to the turn....so steps 1-6 would consist of braking (but not turning left first) so when you started to turn, you're not going to slide off (remember the 'friction circle' from CRS/PE's school? you can only brake AND turn so much before you lose traction). Now, I'm not saying you have to start braking at 'step 1'....you certainly want to late brake as much as possible, but by step 6 you need to be at your cornering speed, and the car has NOT begun to turn yet.

You couldn't start to get back on the gas until you were done with the turn, so steps 5, 6 and 7 you're just turning the car, steady on the gas.....trying to get on the gas hard at this point would just induce understeer and going wide, not following the red line. (assuming you came in as fast as possible, and you're at the edge of adhesion of the tires on this turn....obviously rally tires will let you turn faster than, say winter tires)

Right around step 7 is when you can really think about getting back on the gas hard.....

so as you can see, by flicking it sideway around this turn, you're turning much earlier and getting back on the gas much earlier than just driving the corner.

[sebhockey]

Jon, no I'm not kidding. Well you start out saying exactly what I said. Keep in mind that while you're sliding you're loosing speed. Remember what they kept saying at PE's school, it's faster to drive than to slide. Just cause you can get back on the gas sooner in the positions doesn't mean you get back on the gas time wise. It's faster to come in hot, brake hard, let off the brakes, turn, then get back on the gas. If you come in to a 90 degree with a flick then you lose way more speed, get back on the gas later and still have to spend more time accelerating back up to the speed you could have been at. I'm not saying not slide at all, just not a flick or sliding the entire way.

This is what I figured out while at PE's school. Sliding looks cool and is fun, but for all out speed and lower times it is much faster to just drive it. Oddly enough Paul Eklund said this the first night and Jamie kept telling us this same thing while she was my instructor.

[UP2MTNS]

Jon, no I'm not kidding. Well you start out saying exactly what I said. Keep in mind that while you're sliding you're loosing speed. Remember what they kept saying at PE's school, it's faster to drive than to slide. Just cause you can get back on the gas sooner in the positions doesn't mean you get back on the gas time wise. It's faster to come in hot, brake hard, let off the brakes, turn, then get back on the gas. If you come in to a 90 degree with a flick then you lose way more speed, get back on the gas later and still have to spend more time accelerating back up to the speed you could have been at. I'm not saying not slide at all, just not a flick or sliding the entire way.

This is what I figured out while at PE's school. Sliding looks cool and is fun, but for all out speed and lower times it is much faster to just drive it. Oddly enough Paul Eklund said this the first night and Jamie kept telling us this same thing while she was my instructor.

I don't understand why you're making the two mutually exclusive.

sideways = brake hard <----your words. In fact, sideways = breaking as hard as possible.

but sideways ALSO EQUALS A TURNED CAR.

SO, w/o being sideways first, then you have to actually turn the car when you get to the turn.

in rallyX its just not as relevant/obvious because you're not at a real speed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV-jXITkV80&NR=1

^^you cannot tell me you can drive up straight to that corner, slam on the brakes, just drive around the turn, and come out of that corner faster than this guy.

He's completed 75% of his turn before he even gets to it and he's flying, and is hard on the throttle halfway through (time period 0:06) it because he's already done turning. no faster way to go around this corner.

If he didn't turn BEFORE the turn, he'd have to wait until he was through the corner.....or until this focus is at time period 0:08......so a delay of 2 seconds before getting back on the throttle.

[sebhockey]

Jon my point was that a flick isn't necessary or the fastest route around a 90 degree turn. You don't need to do a flick to break loose for a 90 degree. Just drive it and cut hard to where you break the rear loose and keep in control, don't flick the rear.

[UP2MTNS]

Jon my point was that a flick isn't necessary or the fastest route around a 90 degree turn. You don't need to do a flick to break loose for a 90 degree. Just drive it and cut hard to where you break the rear loose and keep in control, don't flick the rear.

what you're saying doesn't make sense to me. you're talking about breaking the rear loose, but you just said sideways isn't fast....so why (in your style) are you breaking the rear loose? I thought your line of thought is sideways isn't fast?

then you say 'keep it in control, don't flick the rear'.....what does keeping the car in control during the turn have to do with flicking the car?

Also, getting your car to turn in dirt and follow a line isn't easy....we all know it cause we've all plowed wayyyy to far ouside in a corner at full lock. So telling me to "Just drive it and cut hard" isn't much of a technique for getting a car to rotate.

the flick is a specific technique to get the car to rotate wayyyy before the turn....something much more specific than just 'cut hard' (actually, step 4 above is 'cut hard' after you let up on the brake).....what's the technique (ie. specific instructions) there? Because if you just 'cut hard' in snow, I know you're going to stuff it in the bank.

the flick (or whatever technique you want to use to get the car to rotate) has nothing to do with how you get the car around a corner, its about turning the car BEFORE the corner...honestly, if you're worried about "steering the car around the corner", you've started steering wayyyyy too late. When you're IN the corner you've moved past the flick and onto the next technique...LFB/throttle modulation (see steps 4-6 in the diagram above)....and you shouldn't be steering around it, you should be counter steering and unwinding for whatever's up next.

[sebhockey]

Jon, go back to my first post in here and reread what I said, my point was to only use the flick in situations where it makes sense, not for a 90 degree turn. I don't know about you, but I just turn the wheel sharply when I'm coming up to a 90 degree and the rear will come out as much as I allow it to. Never once do I perform a flick to get my tail sliding. Remember the Scandinavian Flick starts by turning away from the turn.

Honestly Jon I think you just like to argue. You would agrue with me if I told you the sky is blue.

[me_jimmy]

The flick is a very difficult technique to perform / master. Ive been working on it for a while now and still am very inconsistent.
yea, i saw a light post trying it right after it got its licens, dang thing ran over my saab.:unamused:

[rollo]

Ah, I love it when the Driving Tips section comes back to life.

From what I've learnt - from teaching and experience - the flick does a few things:
- it slows you down (more than braking straight does)
- it introduces inertia (that you can use to your advantage when it snaps back)
- it sets you up so that the car is unstable and pointing in more or less the right direction as you go into the corner

From experience, it gets more effective the faster you're coming into a corner.

The thing is that it's pretty easy to do, but to do it accurately takes practice, confidence and commitment. I'm no advanced skier by any means, but it often reminds me of the light-bulb moment I had when I realised that to carve turns you had to be fully committed to the turn, jump into it with both skis. Half measures and you're on your ass. Jon correct me if I'm wrong on this, maybe just my personal experience.

I'd sort of got used to this idea that, especially in rallycross, "sliding is slow, driving the corner is fast" etc. I don't do it, cos I'm out there to have fun and I'd rather be provoking oversteer and sliding than slowing down to the point where I don't understeer any more.

But... at GH3 I was informed on my last run that I'd have to "kill it" in order to win the class. So with nothing to lose, I did - full on, aggressive, flicks at every corner after a straight (actually in rallycross usually that means that the last 1/3 of the straight is the setup).. and beat my previous best run by seven seconds! I'm thinking it means that used right, you can brake later at the end of a straight and carry more speed and momentum into a corner, especially a tight, wide one.

In a turbo car it can also help by keeping the wheels spinning and the revs up, potentially giving you a better exit speed (cos you're not waiting for the turbo to spool up again).

Well.. a few rambling thoughts anyway. For me, for the scale in the diagram, steps 3, 4 and 5 are too close together and the flick isn't aggressive enough - if the entry was closer to the right, you could get more of an angle on it given the available space. Still the concept is shown well enough.

[rollo]

Honestly Jon I think you just like to argue. You would agrue with me if I told you the sky is blue.

yea, i saw a light post trying it right after it got its licens, dang thing ran over my saab.:unamused:
:lol2:

Yeah I think the argument has changed somewhere from "sideways is slow" to "you don't always need to flick it"... of course there are no hard and fast rules. Arse-end out round every kink in the road is not gonna make you fast - I proved that at a recent rallycross where I had a tankslapper going on through a slalom, it just killed my time. OTOH it surely has its place.

The key determinant IMO is the level of "available traction" (for both turning and braking) that you have as you approach the corner. This will be affected by speed of approach, surface and tyres (and probably other stuff). If you're on asphalt then you probably have enough grip not to need it. Why did the guy below use a flick at that corner? Would he have been faster taking "the racing line"? Would the crowd have gone as crazy? :D Discuss:

vfuhfs0Jwmo

I think that the higher your approach speed and the less grip you have, the higher chance there is of terminal understeer and the more likely you are to want to use a flick. So maybe you have a higher threshold speed at which you might use a flick.

So let's make a formula! V is final approach velocity (in kph), s is potential slip factor (sheet ice on summer tyres = 10, perfect asphalt on slicks = 1), t is severity of turn (1 = kink, 5 = square, 10 = hairpin). Vst = F - the higher your F number, the more likely you are to need a Scandinavian flick. You can tape it to your windshield, I'm giving this to the rally community.
:lol2:

Yeah.. well math was never my strong point :D

[me_jimmy]

the light post made it quicker around the bend that i ever seen it go, its the return slide after´words that hit me. fwd makes for a quick flick

[UP2MTNS]

haha....what's funny Steve is that I was thinking the same thing about you last night when I was typing all this up!!

Honestly, I really like discussing it like this because it really forces me to think about what I'm doing, make sure I truly understand it, and then put it out there in public to see what others think. I'm pretty confident in my current driving style (needs some polishing of course, I have some bad habits and a few crutches), but I know it will have to change for stage rally.

at 70mph in Jack's NEON, I didn't have to flick anything....that car was loose as a goose and was ready to turn ANYwhere, but I still had to turn BEFORE the turn and get the car sideways to scrub speed AND have the car turned so we didn't stuff it.



ROLLO, I pretty much agree with everything you said.....the flick is easy to do, but difficult to be precise, especially at speed. And I think this is where Steve and I are mis communicating a little bit....I don't care if you flick, or e-brake or whatever, my point is that you need to rotate the car BEFORE the turn (ANY turn, including a 90 degree turn).

This thread is about HOW to flick....so above I gave pretty detailed instructions on how to flick, why you flick on a corner like that (which just happens to be 90 degrees in that example), and why that style of driving is better than just taking the car on a straight line.

I do agree that sideways drifting is not as fast (but looks really good) for normal tarmac drifting. But in the dirt, it has a very specific and strategic purpose.

And I'm always going to defend my points, Steve, when you're only rebuttal to my detailed post is 'going sideways is not faster' and your technique is only 'brake hard, turn in hard'<---that proves nothing and are just general statements. This is the internet, Steve.....Serious Business. Defend your statements properly. LOL :punch: haha!!!! :FU: :eek::machinegunleft::mrgreen:

[UP2MTNS]

I just turn the wheel sharply when I'm coming up to a 90 degree and the rear will come out as much as I allow it to

^^oh...and THIS is an interesting statement. we all know Suby's understeer like a plowing spyder pig, so I'm going to have to take a ride with you next time. If I come up to a 90 degree turn and just turn my wheels, I plow right through it, so I want to see if your car really does rotate that easily.

[UP2MTNS]

:lol2:

Yeah I think the argument has changed somewhere from "sideways is slow" to "you don't always need to flick it"... of course there are no hard and fast rules. Arse-end out round every kink in the road is not gonna make you fast - I proved that at a recent rallycross where I had a tankslapper going on through a slalom, it just killed my time. OTOH it surely has its place.

The key determinant IMO is the level of "available traction" (for both turning and braking) that you have as you approach the corner. This will be affected by speed of approach, surface and tyres (and probably other stuff). If you're on asphalt then you probably have enough grip not to need it. Why did the guy below use a flick at that corner? Would he have been faster taking "the racing line"? Would the crowd have gone as crazy? :D Discuss:

vfuhfs0Jwmo

I think that the higher your approach speed and the less grip you have, the higher chance there is of terminal understeer and the more likely you are to want to use a flick. So maybe you have a higher threshold speed at which you might use a flick.

So let's make a formula! V is final approach velocity (in kph), s is potential slip factor (sheet ice on summer tyres = 10, perfect asphalt on slicks = 1), t is severity of turn (1 = kink, 5 = square, 10 = hairpin). Vst = F - the higher your F number, the more likely you are to need a Scandinavian flick. You can tape it to your windshield, I'm giving this to the rally community.
:lol2:

Yeah.. well math was never my strong point :D

my problem with using this example is you've just changed the surface....tarmac is a whole other story because you can get some pretty crazy r-compound tires out there. different from rally where a rally tire is pretty much a rally tire and there's not a lot of room for 'extra grip' between rally tires......not sure this video helps clarify this discussion much, haha. i would in fact argue AGAINST that guys use of the flick in that video....not smooth at all, AND he over turned at the end, so he definitely lost speed there.

[rollo]

my problem with using this example is you've just changed the surface....tarmac is a whole other story because you can get some pretty crazy r-compound tires out there. different from rally where a rally tire is pretty much a rally tire and there's not a lot of room for 'extra grip' between rally tires......not sure this video helps clarify this discussion much, haha. i would in fact argue AGAINST that guys use of the flick in that video....not smooth at all, AND he over turned at the end, so he definitely lost speed there.

That was more or less my point Jon.. which is why I said "If you're on asphalt then you probably have enough grip not to need it." :)

TBH I think the reason he did it like that was half show-boating, half "active avoidance of understeer" if you will.

Imagine the same corner on gravel - long straight followed by sharpish corner.. say like this:
http://www.wildwestrally.org/gallery/2007/cody/IMG_3290.jpg

Understeer could (and seemingly did) lead to:
http://www.wildwestrally.org/gallery/2007/cody/IMG_3292.jpg

:shock:

On gravel, with less grip available for turn in, you're more likely to need to set the car up for the corner beforehand. It's the difference between "driving the line" and "doing it sideways".

[UP2MTNS]

That was more or less my point Jon.. which is why I said "If you're on asphalt then you probably have enough grip not to need it." :)


oh yeah, missed that....duh.



TBH I think the reason he did it like that was half show-boating, half "active avoidance of understeer" if you will.

Imagine the same corner on gravel - long straight followed by sharpish corner.. say like this:
http://www.wildwestrally.org/gallery/2007/cody/IMG_3290.jpg

Understeer could (and seemingly did) lead to:
http://www.wildwestrally.org/gallery/2007/cody/IMG_3292.jpg

:shock:

On gravel, with less grip available for turn in, you're more likely to need to set the car up for the corner beforehand. It's the difference between "driving the line" and "doing it sideways".

holy crap, that 2nd image is awesome.

[sebhockey]

^^oh...and THIS is an interesting statement. we all know Suby's understeer like a plowing spyder pig, so I'm going to have to take a ride with you next time. If I come up to a 90 degree turn and just turn my wheels, I plow right through it, so I want to see if your car really does rotate that easily.

My suby used to plow big time, but with the suspension setup I have on it I have completely neutral steering meaning I can toss it around pretty easy. I rode with Paul a few times at Antioch and it took him quite a bit of effort and ebraking to get the rear to come out for him. Whereas I control the rear with just gas brakes and steering with little effort. Something to keep in mind though is I have crappy tires with no grip, so the back end is easy as can be to get loose. With rally tires it might take quite a bit more, but I'll find out soon enough.


Are you going to Thunderhill or DM3? Depending on money and time I might be going and could be a chance to ride with me and find out.

[409industries]

DM3 is going to be the perfect testbed for ride and drives and sorting out suspension needs.

[rollo]

My suby used to plow big time, but with the suspension setup I have on it I have completely neutral steering meaning I can toss it around pretty easy. I rode with Paul a few times at Antioch and it took him quite a bit of effort and ebraking to get the rear to come out for him.

Shouldn't _need_ ebrake to get the back end out in any car, unless it has a very severe tendency to push.

Whereas I control the rear with just gas brakes and steering with little effort.

Heh.. the only things you use are gas, brakes and steering eh? 8)

Something to keep in mind though is I have crappy tires with no grip, so the back end is easy as can be to get loose. With rally tires it might take quite a bit more, but I'll find out soon enough.

Do you have crappy tyres only on the rear? I only ask cos you can really only get the rear loose if the front end is gripping.

Inquiring minds etc... :D

[sebhockey]

Shouldn't _need_ ebrake to get the back end out in any car, unless it has a very severe tendency to push.

Yup, I've never used the ebrake myself.


Heh.. the only things you use are gas, brakes and steering eh? 8)

Crazy concept ain't it? :crazy:



Do you have crappy tyres only on the rear? I only ask cos you can really only get the rear loose if the front end is gripping.

Inquiring minds etc... :D

Nope, crappy tires front and rear. I'm still on my stock RE92's, soon to change.

[SoCalBoomer]

You're going to find a dramatic difference if you get good tires and another dramatic difference once you go up to rally tires.

It's like going from hockey-puck hard street tires to typical all-weather tires to race slicks (up to temp). Sorta.

I have started running in Rally4 (using Louie's 2.5rs) instead of R2. In R2 I never, ever, flick - it's dive into the turn hard, brake LATE with a hard stab, then initiate the turn (almost simultaneous with the late brake), and then drag brake to pivot the rear - all the while never lifting the gas (except to modulate any open-diff wheelspin)

This sounds (minus the drag braking) what seb was recommending, with his " I just turn the wheel sharply when I'm coming up to a 90 degree and the rear will come out as much as I allow it to" - if he's got a custom suspension setup, sure. Why not. My Neon doesn't understeer much, even on asphalt - but then my suspension isn't stock.

but, all things being considered, Louie's 2.5 understeers like a pig. (a very nice pig! Thanks Louie! :lol: ) but it oversteers on throttle - so modulation is necessary, and a little nudge (flick) is necessary.

Just driving up to the turn and turning is not going to cut it. Ekland is great - but remember, the atmosphere you're in (SF, right? ) is a lot different than where Paul runs and teaches. Nothing AT ALL against Paul - but I don't remember him blowing us away when he came to Thunderhill - and the top two Subies were both practicing a flick type maneuver.


Saying that spinning your wheels does not mean you're going fast is actually a mis-statement.

Your wheels are thrusting you in a direction. The SOONER you can get them thrusting you in the direction in which you want to travel, the better. Watch Seb or last year's Marcus or Peter in his WC year - they pivoted the car almost before they entered the friggin turn, then it was accelerate all the way through - their tires pushing and pulling them toward the exit the entire way - and this was quite often nowhere near a 90 degree turn!

At GH2, I had one good run (still figgering out this AWD business) - and it was where I was able to flick the several sweeping turns (as well as the long left, and hold it tight.) I flicked everything I could and once I got the handle on it (sorta) I was actually running a decent time. Nowhere near Scott and Trent (no kidding) but actually in the same ballpark (me=bunt, them=triples) and it was entirely due to letting the car slide, controlling the tail-out angle, then letting her settle into her final attitude and throttling all the way through.

[RA Limited]

was out fooling around this weekend and decided to practice the flick a little.... unfortunately i made some poor choices on where to do it haha.

I found a big open (not open enough though) flat area of broken and smooth tarmac, and initiated a few flicks fairly well. Was a blast... not nearly as controllable as when i've tried it in gravel at higher speeds (i wasn't moving very fast on this tarmac)... Well the last time i went for it, i flicked it too hard coming out, and plowed both passenger side (L) wheels into a dirt embankment and parially debeaded one :(

It'd help if i wasn't doing this on Advan Neovas and BFG KDW's i'm sure :)

[sebhockey]

was out fooling around this weekend and decided to practice the flick a little.... unfortunately i made some poor choices on where to do it haha.

I found a big open (not open enough though) flat area of broken and smooth tarmac, and initiated a few flicks fairly well. Was a blast... not nearly as controllable as when i've tried it in gravel at higher speeds (i wasn't moving very fast on this tarmac)... Well the last time i went for it, i flicked it too hard coming out, and plowed both passenger side (L) wheels into a dirt embankment and parially debeaded one :(

It'd help if i wasn't doing this on Advan Neovas and BFG KDW's i'm sure :)


Exactly why street tires aren't meant for rally, but it's still fun aint it?

[RA Limited]

yeah... i'm hopefully winning an auction for a set of 15x7 enkeis tonight (6 hrs to go, still under $100), and my buddy has some 195 snow tires for me... that'll do MUCH better.

I need to get my wife to "man up" and push the car some, she loves driving it around, but just isn't used to the power and what it can do.