my car has saved me too many times

[deadbeatdude]

like the title say is i cant recall the many many times my car has saved me from certain disaster. yesterday the morons in front of me slamed on their brakes at 60plus and if it wasnt for my awesome wrx brakes im sure i would have smashed into them. thank the big man for my impreza. now im thinking i need brake upgrades for further safety. any suggestions

[MetalNeverDies]

subaru 4 pots are pretty good. or if you got tons of cash you could get the brembo? but even doing something like just putting in better pads can help you a lot. the other thing you could do is drill and slot your roters. but that will chew up your pads like crazy.

[RS-ti_Andy]

dont do brembo.. 15 inch wheels dont clear them, yeah drill and slot the rotors and get ceramic carbon pads and u wont have that bad of a "chew" and less brake dust

[sebhockey]

Don't bother with drilled/slotted rotors, just get better pads. Drilled/slotted rotors don't make any difference anymore with the metals used on rotors anymore, their only benefit is cooling. Besides they actually increase stopping distance due to there being less surface to create friction.

[RS-ti_Andy]

^^^^^^^^^ yeah.. i alway buy the best pads anyways when changing my brakes lol i never touch the rotors

[UP2MTNS]

Don't bother with drilled/slotted rotors, just get better pads. Drilled/slotted rotors don't make any difference anymore with the metals used on rotors anymore, their only benefit is cooling. Besides they actually increase stopping distance due to there being less surface to create friction.

but what does the rotor material have to do with it though?

slots or holes allow the PAD's material to escape as it breaks down from hard usage . That material (I guess some material, when hot enough, actually puts out a 'gas') can get between the pad and rotors and decrease the coefficient of friction between the two. (think of what the sand does on a bar room shuffle board game).

anyway, supposedly drilled holes decrease the strength of the rotor overall, so slotted is the way to go. I have both, cheap ebay rotors, have been going strong for over 50K miles, my car stops on a dime.

stock 04 WRX rotors suck, mine warped in less than 10,000 miles.

[RS-ti_Andy]

yeah i heard about them warping quickly.. wierd

[anaonbd]

the rotors cracking is caused by heat differences in the metal, the cheap rotors usually have uneven metal thicknesses causing the rotors to get really hot in some places and stay somewhat cool in others causing cracking. This is advice given to me by a friend's friend who owns a machine shop.

His advice is unless you're just racing all the time and need the best braking performance for a short time, don't get drilled or slotted. brake pads are much cheaper (even the expensive ones) and easier to change. But changing rotors from cheap stock to aftermarket (EBC or whatever) is also a good idea.

Unless someone else is paying for them, don't go for the super elaborate expensive parts.

[UP2MTNS]

the rotors cracking is caused by heat differences in the metal, the cheap rotors usually have uneven metal thicknesses causing the rotors to get really hot in some places and stay somewhat cool in others causing cracking. This is advice given to me by a friend's friend who owns a machine shop.

His advice is unless you're just racing all the time and need the best braking performance for a short time, don't get drilled or slotted. brake pads are much cheaper (even the expensive ones) and easier to change. But changing rotors from cheap stock to aftermarket (EBC or whatever) is also a good idea.

Unless someone else is paying for them, don't go for the super elaborate expensive parts.

from what I've seen 'slotted' doesn't make rotors all that much more expensive (anymore at least, its pretty common nowadays). But yeah, paying +$350 for a pair of rotors is pretty steep. Especially since I watched Eli do pretty well on stock rotors and pads in this year's Gorman Ridge Rally.

I've done well with my ebay rotors so far.

[sleepyfu]

upgrade the pads and get some stainless steel brake lines.
________
NEW MEXICO MARIJUANA DISPENSARY (http://newmexico.dispensaries.org/)

[sebhockey]

but what does the rotor material have to do with it though?

slots or holes allow the PAD's material to escape as it breaks down from hard usage . That material (I guess some material, when hot enough, actually puts out a 'gas') can get between the pad and rotors and decrease the coefficient of friction between the two. (think of what the sand does on a bar room shuffle board game).

anyway, supposedly drilled holes decrease the strength of the rotor overall, so slotted is the way to go. I have both, cheap ebay rotors, have been going strong for over 50K miles, my car stops on a dime.

stock 04 WRX rotors suck, mine warped in less than 10,000 miles.

Actually the only gain from slotting or drilling the rotors is cooling (unless you're running in a race that puts stress on the brakes like in WRC). The newer materials used in rotors and pads makes this irrelevant unless youre constantly on the brakes at which point you wouldn't be running anything close to stock anyhow. Any gas pockets between the pad and rotor will be sheared off from friction and escape into the atmosphere. Technically drilling or slotting will decrease the strength of the rotors as there is less material.

Point being, the ideal solution is to upgrade your pads and leave your stock rotors unless you're gonna upgrade your calipers as well.

[BlackParis]

Actually the only gain from slotting or drilling the rotors is cooling (unless you're running in a race that puts stress on the brakes like in WRC). The newer materials used in rotors and pads makes this irrelevant unless youre constantly on the brakes at which point you wouldn't be running anything close to stock anyhow. Any gas pockets between the pad and rotor will be sheared off from friction and escape into the atmosphere.


Point being, the ideal solution is to upgrade your pads and leave your stock rotors unless you're gonna upgrade your calipers as well.

+1.. On an emergancy stop with brakes relativly cool (normal driving) slotting and drilling does NOTHING for shorter distance... changing pad materials can change a cold stop distance, but just slapping on drilled or slotted rotors wont do much for cold stopping distances...



Technically drilling or slotting will decrease the strength of the rotors as there is less material.


Drilling does allow for more potential of heat cracks... I have seen a rotor break off following the drilled wholes on a tracked BMW... Slots FTW....

BTW: I have done extensive brake testing as well ;)
http://a694.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/84/l_88ace92074d8c5040a9e06e8f2973bdd.jpg
the pads were in flames a few seconds before the photo....

[murtada87]

from what I've seen 'slotted' doesn't make rotors all that much more expensive (anymore at least, its pretty common nowadays). But yeah, paying +$350 for a pair of rotors is pretty steep. Especially since I watched Eli do pretty well on stock rotors and pads in this year's Gorman Ridge Rally.

I've done well with my ebay rotors so far.

I've got those ebay slotted and drilled rotors too running on ceramic pads and I've gotta say worth every penny imo... a big difference over stock I would say, my stock rotors worrped like crazy too, but I've punished my rotors now and they have done wethstood the test in my opinon, even in the dirt... still held stong and for the price like up2mtns said, can't beat it

[RS-ti_Andy]

yeah cant go wrong with ebay rotors.. super cheap but does the job.. and mann! those are some hot roters! haha

[deadbeatdude]

ok cuz i was thinkin of goin with the scoobytuner.com brake upgrade. it has the brake lines pads rotors and high performance brake fluid

[RS-ti_Andy]

how much?^^^^^^^^

[409industries]

I drove my buddy's track STi and he had the most amazing brake setup that i've ever personally driven. "The Brake Man" makes a F5 caliper and rotor combination that really works well. The rotor is not slotted or drilled, but has very large vents. In contrast to the STi's bitey Brembos, the Brake Man setup allowed for consistent modulation time after time with very little fade. Most any setup will let you lock up the brakes at 100 mph, but the big difference is being able to brake hard or not as hard consistently!

Cant beat losing 10lbs at each wheel either ;)

http://videos.hspn.com/?videoid=12

[UP2MTNS]

Actually the only gain from slotting or drilling the rotors is cooling (unless you're running in a race that puts stress on the brakes like in WRC). The newer materials used in rotors and pads makes this irrelevant unless youre constantly on the brakes at which point you wouldn't be running anything close to stock anyhow. Any gas pockets between the pad and rotor will be sheared off from friction and escape into the atmosphere. Technically drilling or slotting will decrease the strength of the rotors as there is less material.

Point being, the ideal solution is to upgrade your pads and leave your stock rotors unless you're gonna upgrade your calipers as well.

better cooling comes from vented rotors, and larger calipers.

from powerslot.com (and just about any other brake mfg website)
Excessive heat can cause resins in your brake pad to vaporize or "outgas." As the brake pad wears, the used friction material turns into a fine dust. This boundary layer of heat, gas and dust builds up between the pad and rotor surfaces and inhibits performance.

this is why every rotor manufacturer has a 'slotted' upgraded product.

You said:
Any gas pockets between the pad and rotor will be sheared off from friction and escape into the atmosphere.

slots or drilled holes help this happen even faster.

I'm not arguing that drilled holes are 'better'...I'm just saying, this is the main point of slotted and drilled rotors.

As far as the 'idea' upgrade, I'll leave that up to the individual driver, since its really just a personal preference at our level of driving.

[greddy]

Depending on what you wanna do with ur car, ebay rotor are doing really bad when it's time to put them on a track. Even if it's for a couple minutes, they heat up fast and don't keep good friction at high temp. If you use an harder pads like ceramic, the rotor will not last long too compare to a better and harder one like DBA.

By the way, drilled rotors are useless. Yes they are useful for evacuating gaz but the creation of gaz just happens at high temp and when you reach that point, you have already lost a lot of braking capability. Since the best way to cool down the pads is to put it in contact with the rotor to transfer heat, ur better to maximise the contact surface between pads and rotor or get pads with ceramic so they will stand much more heat and dont tend to fade at high temp.

Slotted pads will helps to remove dust carbon at the surface of pads that is create under braking and will also help for a faster beddin of the pads. It keeps ur brake pads at their maximum friction.

hope that will help

[RS-ti_Andy]

woah! new composites, 10lbs lighter, and it seems like thea rotor is a 2 peice design... maybe makes for a cheaper replacemet?

[sebhockey]

better cooling comes from vented rotors, and larger calipers.

from powerslot.com (and just about any other brake mfg website)


this is why every rotor manufacturer has a 'slotted' upgraded product.

You said:


slots or drilled holes help this happen even faster.

I'm not arguing that drilled holes are 'better'...I'm just saying, this is the main point of slotted and drilled rotors.

As far as the 'idea' upgrade, I'll leave that up to the individual driver, since its really just a personal preference at our level of driving.

Yes, but the benefits of a slotted or drilled rotor are not realized by the uses or setups of us on here. For coming to a quick stop the ideal solution is solid rotors. For those of us not heating up our rotors to the point where they glow the best solution is solid rotors. Sorry Jon, but most of us aren't pushing our brakes to that degree where we actually get any benefit out of slotted or drilled rotors.

BTW, every rotor company will of course post something like that to sell drilled/slotted rotors. They are in business to make money and they will make money on selling you things you don't need by making you think you do need them. Their benefits are only actually realized in constant braking situations.

If you want slotted/drilled rotors, then buy them, but keep in mind your stopping distance will actually increase due to less friction surface area. They will not help the author of this thread to stop faster in fast reaction situations like he wants, only give him a longer stopping distance.

[wolfman79]

Hawk HP plus or HPS pads at all four corners. If you've never seen your brakes glowing orange then you don't really need any other rotors. Some braided brake lines make a big difference in pedal feel and modualtion.

I know of very few people who have warped their rotors on a DD type car. Look at an OE rotor and then consider the amount of heat it would take to warp that rotor. If they''re not glowing then you haven't warped them. Most assumed warpage is actually due to improper pad bed-in technique. This leads to deposit buildup on the face of the rotor and thus has an uneven feel to it. This is why turning your rotors makes them feel better; it's not that you have corrected the warpage rather you have merely exposed a fresh and even surface. If a rotor was truly warped then it would not be possible to safely turn it unless it was insanely thick, at which point no street driven car would ever be able to possibly generate the heat nessecary to warp it in the first place.

The three most important aspects of good brakes:
1 Attentive and Defensive driving
2 Quality and properly maintained tires that are appropriate for conditions
3 Good Brake pads/shoes of a compound suitable for driving conditions

The rest is all details and bling. You can have 15" slotted/drilled ceramic rotors with 8 piston calipers, braided lines, DOT 1000 fluid etc and if you don't pay attention you're still going to hit something. Same for having worn/wrong tires on the car or brake pads that aren't meant for your driving style.

[deadbeatdude]

i never slam on my brakes alot and i always take car of my car, its just i want to keep my new family safe. and since i added more hp i figured i need to balance out the car

[rollo]

nvm

[UP2MTNS]

why do people always read my posts the wrong way? I wasn't debating the value of drilled/slotted rotors...I was debating the function with you.


Sorry Jon, but most of us aren't pushing our brakes to that degree where we actually get any benefit out of slotted or drilled rotors.

ummm, what did I just say?

I'm not arguing that drilled holes are 'better'...I'm just saying, this is the main point of slotted and drilled rotors.I was discussing your statement...

Actually the only gain from slotting or drilling the rotors is cooling...which I was disagreeing with. and I quoted the industry's definition of the purpose of drilling/slotting rotors. You can argue with me on that one all you want, but the point of drilling/slotting rotors has little to do with cooling.


If you want slotted/drilled rotors, then buy them, but keep in mind your stopping distance will actually increase due to less friction surface area.

That's a bold statement Steve. I'd have to see testing to believe it. Yes, I understand the concept your basing it on, but on a slotted rotor, its not like you've got 4-5 'slots' under the pad at any given time.

Stopping power is created by friction and force. Friction is the coefficient between the two materials times surface area. If surface area decreases slightly, I can make up for it by increasing the force.

How much extra force? very little. Will any driver be able to notice the difference? Doubt it.

[UP2MTNS]

BTW, every rotor company will of course post something like that to sell drilled/slotted rotors. They are in business to make money and they will make money on selling you things you don't need by making you think you do need them.

you can say this about just about any product, this is a weak argument against any 'performance' product.


Their benefits are only actually realized in constant braking situations.

and you're fooling yourself if you think this situation doesn't happen every day, for every driver.

from going from 80 to 25mph on the highway, to the hills in SF, to the 5 mile 6% downgrade on I-80 out of Tahoe. I see 5,000lbs SUV's riding their brakes every day.

[wolfman79]

and you're fooling yourself if you think this situation doesn't happen every day, for every driver.

from going from 80 to 25mph on the highway, to the hills in SF, to the 5 mile 6% downgrade on I-80 out of Tahoe. I see 5,000lbs SUV's riding their brakes every day.

I'm not going to argue about using slotted rotors since I currently have a set on the OBS. However I think that the reasons you've listed are more indicative of poor driving habits as opposed to shortcomings in a stock brake setup.

[UP2MTNS]

I'm not going to argue about using slotted rotors since I currently have a set on the OBS. However I think that the reasons you've listed are more indicative of poor driving habits as opposed to shortcomings in a stock brake setup.

Once again, putting words in my mouth. I simply said 'constant braking' situations happen every day, good driver/bad driver, whatever.

All I've said in this thread is slotted is better than drilled. I said I have both and it works for me, I have not actually given anyone any advice. I have NOT said slotted are better than non-slotted.

(Go yell at metalneverdies, he's the one that brought it up, jeeze!!:FU:)
LOL
:machinegunleft:

[Full Boost]

Just get some STi 6 pots and you will never have to worry again :mrgreen:

Or get these:
http://www.border-racing.com/cat1/z33/cat69/

[UP2MTNS]

I'm not going to argue about using slotted rotors since I currently have a set on the OBS. However I think that the reasons you've listed are more indicative of poor driving habits as opposed to shortcomings in a stock brake setup.


oh and "the 5 mile 6% downgrade on I-80 out of Tahoe" has nothing to do with anyone's driving habits. Its a fact...its a big ass downhill.

[wolfman79]

oh and "the 5 mile 6% downgrade on I-80 out of Tahoe" has nothing to do with anyone's driving habits. Its a fact...its a big ass downhill.

I live in Denver spend a lot of time up in Summit County. Trust me I know all about big ass downhills.

And I apologize if I put words in your mouth that was not my intent. My original reply was intended more for the OP who titled the thread as "my car has saved me too many times". I was trying to say that it is far more important to drive within the conditions of traffic, weather etc, and to have good tires that are properly inflated than to try to rely on any uprated or performance products. If they as an average driver in normal daily conditions wish to improve their braking performance beyond that then the first step would be to step up to a higher qualtiy brake pad.

I think we were arguing two slightly different points and after re-reading your posts I don't disagree with what you're saying just in how I feel it relates to the OP.

Truce?

[UP2MTNS]

I live in Denver spend a lot of time up in Summit County. Trust me I know all about big ass downhills.

And I apologize if I put words in your mouth that was not my intent. My original reply was intended more for the OP who titled the thread as "my car has saved me too many times". I was trying to say that it is far more important to drive within the conditions of traffic, weather etc, and to have good tires that are properly inflated than to try to rely on any uprated or performance products. If they as an average driver in normal daily conditions wish to improve their braking performance beyond that then the first step would be to step up to a higher qualtiy brake pad.

I think we were arguing two slightly different points and after re-reading your posts I don't disagree with what you're saying just in how I feel it relates to the OP.

Truce?

haha, no need for a 'truce', i wasn't mad or anything 8) just boldly making my point clear :mrgreen:

and I do agree with you, I'd say the 'average' person is a 'below average' driver in regards to proper tire inflation, proper driving technique, and overall car maintenance.

Obviously, no one on the forum is an 'average' driver.

This whole thing has kind of reminded me that I DO have 50K miles on my cheapo ebay rotors, I probably need to replace them. I wouldn't mind some nicer DBA or even brembo rotors, but we'll see...I'm not paying $600 for rotors on all 4 corners.

[BlackParis]

Just get some STi 6 pots and you will never have to worry again :mrgreen:

Or get these:
http://www.border-racing.com/cat1/z33/cat69/

...

Like seriously.. WTF...


The thing you need to pay attention to is Brake Balance too.. You got to make sure you do the same to the front and rear, for the best results...

Subarus actually dont seem to have enough rear bias from the factory, so look into doing a Outback h6 3.0 rear brake upgrade, pretty cheap and will make a huge difference....



my old roomate had one on his 05 OBS, and it was amazingly quicker stop than my car....

[UP2MTNS]

...

Like seriously.. WTF...


The thing you need to pay attention to is Brake Balance too.. You got to make sure you do the same to the front and rear, for the best results...

Subarus actually dont seem to have enough rear bias from the factory, so look into doing a Outback h6 3.0 rear brake upgrade, pretty cheap and will make a huge difference....



my old roomate had one on his 05 OBS, and it was amazingly quicker stop than my car....

I've heard good things about that upgrade too. However it is still a 'solid' rotor, so you can still have warping issues.

the '91 Turbo Legacy rear brake upgrade is very good as well, its the same diameter, but allows for thicker, VENTED rotors. so they last longer, and can absorb/disburse more heat than a solid rotor setup. its about $300 for the new calipers.

imo, of course.

[409industries]

preference boys and girls... preference.

What one person feels works best for them, isn't always going to be the same for the next guy. Stick with what you are comfortable with!

[wolfman79]

Rear rotors?? My drums are doing just fine. Now when the time comes I wouldn't mind grabbing a set of turbo leggy rear knuckles. Leave the fronts alone and watch the rear bias work its magic.

[sebhockey]

This whole thing has kind of reminded me that I DO have 50K miles on my cheapo ebay rotors, I probably need to replace them. I wouldn't mind some nicer DBA or even brembo rotors, but we'll see...I'm not paying $600 for rotors on all 4 corners.

Jon if youre gonna spend a lot of brakes you might as well get a set of 4pot fronts and 2 pot rears. For the cost of those rotors you can get half the setup. :muhaha:

[Full Boost]

...

Like seriously.. WTF...


The thing you need to pay attention to is Brake Balance too.. You got to make sure you do the same to the front and rear, for the best results...

Subarus actually dont seem to have enough rear bias from the factory, so look into doing a Outback h6 3.0 rear brake upgrade, pretty cheap and will make a huge difference....



my old roomate had one on his 05 OBS, and it was amazingly quicker stop than my car....

I think pad and tire compound is the most important. The funny thing is that the Spec-C Type RA-R has 6 pot front brakes and only 2 pot rear brakes. However it is supposed to be the best stopping production Subaru.

http://www.dirtyimpreza.com/index.php/news/article/sti_6_pot_front_and_2_pot_rear_brake_kit_on_sale_j apan/

[UP2MTNS]

Jon if youre gonna spend a lot of brakes you might as well get a set of 4pot fronts and 2 pot rears. For the cost of those rotors you can get half the setup. :muhaha:

yeah, considering I've got a bunch of other car costs coming up, I'm sure I'll go cheapo rotors to get me through this year.

[BlackParis]

preference boys and girls... preference.

What one person feels works best for them, isn't always going to be the same for the next guy. Stick with what you are comfortable with!

Ok.. granted this whole thread is "prefernce" cause no-one showed Any numbers relating to better braking ;)

there was a thread On Nasioc (several years ago), that was a comparison of stopping distances.. Stock VS. STi brembos front only VS. H63.0 rears only VS. the combo of the 2 ... This thread prompeted my roommate to buy the H6 rears, and they were fun as hell on his wagon (My preference ;) )

Just adding the H6 rears shortened the stopping distance ALMOST as much as the STi fronts only.. ... And the STi brembos arent cheap where as the full H6 rear swap is ~300$
http://fastwrx.com/suboemrearro.html

[Galen]

but what does the rotor material have to do with it though?

slots or holes allow the PAD's material to escape as it breaks down from hard usage . That material (I guess some material, when hot enough, actually puts out a 'gas') can get between the pad and rotors and decrease the coefficient of friction between the two. (think of what the sand does on a bar room shuffle board game).

anyway, supposedly drilled holes decrease the strength of the rotor overall, so slotted is the way to go. I have both, cheap ebay rotors, have been going strong for over 50K miles, my car stops on a dime.

stock 04 WRX rotors suck, mine warped in less than 10,000 miles.

Brake fade FTL. slotted and dimpled FTW!

[RS-ti_Andy]

uh oh here is andy's opinion----- lol

you want amazing breaking?! get a exhaust brake! lol im done! it stops big trucks pulling big trailers! its heavy and big and would have to customize it but yeah serious breaking power!

[BlackParis]

uh oh here is andy's opinion----- lol

you want amazing breaking?! get a exhaust brake! lol im done! it stops big trucks pulling big trailers! its heavy and big and would have to customize it but yeah serious breaking power!

doesnt work on Automatic transmissions though! or I totally would.. hell it would still be loud though!

[Galen]

heh, cool.