Suspension for a Novice Rally-Xer [Archive]

debbid

12-27-2007, 01:34 PM

So, I want to start doing some rallycross events in 2008. Currently, my car is lowered on Crucial Springs and stock struts. Crucials drop the car 1.25" in the front and 0.9" in the rear, with spring rates of 257lb/in front and 217lb/in rear. Its pretty low, IMO, since the rear tires tuck a little. I know there are alot of ruts on an rally-x course, so I want more ground clearance.

So, my first thought was to just throw my stock suspension back on. But, I want a firmer ride than stock, so AGXs or maybe the Pedders Struts paired with the stock springs would be a good idea. The thing that is making this decision hard is that I like having a car with a slight drop. after doing some research, it seems that the Prodrive Blue Springs have the least drastic drop (20mm or ~0.8").

What do you guys think is the better path based on those I outlined above?

-David

PS: Sorry, I know there have been alot of suspension threads lately, but i couldn't find a solid answer in those threads.

Blix666

12-27-2007, 01:40 PM

i would just throw the stock suspension back in. i don't know why you'd want a stiffer ride for rally-x. i can't even imagine having an even stiffer suspension in my car on some of the venues i race on. then again, you'll be racin' on completely different stuff.

UP2MTNS

12-27-2007, 01:51 PM

+1 go back to stock until something breaks.

If you want a better ride than stock for the street, upgrade your sway bars.

MetalNeverDies

12-27-2007, 01:56 PM

dont buy prodrive. they drop more than the pinks. either do pinks or stock till something breaks then get some coils if you can afford them... im kinda low on moneys so i am just going to buy pinks cause i drive on the street most of the time anyways

409industries

12-27-2007, 02:06 PM

Clearance is your friend in rallyx. +1 for the stock springs and shocks.

debbid

12-27-2007, 02:12 PM

cool, thanks everyone. I'm gonna go with UP2MTNS advice. I'll sell the springs and get some sway bars with the money from that.

UP2MTNS

12-27-2007, 02:14 PM

cool, thanks everyone. I'm gonna go with UP2MTNS advice. I'll sell the springs and get some sway bars with the money from that.

start with the rear sway bar, get used to it, see how you like it, then get the fronts if you want more stability.

also, since you have a wagon, a cheap rear strut bar will make a difference too.

SoCalBoomer

12-27-2007, 02:16 PM

You could also go with aftermarket struts - but make sure they're the same or softer rate. . . you want to absorb the bumps, not bounce over them. Stock struts work great, but equivalent ones that are a bit heavier duty might be a good idea. KYB GR2 are popular with FWD - don't know how they are for Subies. . .

JacksonRally

12-27-2007, 02:52 PM

Stock height is the way to go (or higher, but thats just me). I would do a minor upgrade on struts plus the rear sway. I too am looking into the Pedders or Kyb Agx's, it would be nice to have some valving adjustment. IMO stock struts blow out quick then you are bottoming out all the time. Been there done that.

deadbeatdude

12-27-2007, 03:54 PM

thats what i was going to do. keep stock height and upgrade the sways and endlinks. then i was thinkin the rear tbraces from cusco to stiff up the rear a little bit

WRR

12-27-2007, 04:16 PM

note- if you want to run in the SS4 (street stock 4wd) class for Calif. Rally Series or FRX events then you want to be stock springs/struts and no aftermarket strut bars... if you don't care about which class you will be running then disregard...

I have a similar problem in that my WRX is pretty much stock (Cobb Stage 1) with Eibach Pro-Series springs and 18"s... if I need to rally-x it then I not only need to go to stock wheels/tires but switch my springs back cause the SM4 (Street Mod 4) class has some heavy hitters in it (ie: UP2MTNS, Aaron, Rollo etc...) and I would get smoked so going back to stock springs would at least help me be a little bit competitive...

just something to consider

debbid

12-27-2007, 04:49 PM

Thanks WRR. Although, that leads me to more questions about the rest of my car. I'm guessing, based on my engine mods, that I would be placed in SM4 anyways. My car is equivalent to Cobb Stage 2. Specifically, I have a DP, Catback, and custom tune. And my car does have Whiteline front and rear strut bars :-(

rollo

12-27-2007, 04:54 PM

debbid

12-27-2007, 04:56 PM

Yeah, SM4 for sure. Unless you wanna go big, stock suspension is fine for SM4. Other mods.. anything which gets the power down (i.e. reduces turbo lag). I'd not bother until you've modded the driver for a while first.

Ha.. I'm a heavy hitter, cool!

Yeah, my plan is to put the stock springs/struts back on and then get as much behind-the-wheel time as possible. It would be too much trouble/money to put the rest of the car back to stock.

rollo

12-27-2007, 05:00 PM

Yeah, my plan is to put the stock springs/struts back on and then get as much behind-the-wheel time as possible. It would be too much trouble/money to put the rest of the car back to stock.

Oh hell no, agreed. A lot of people start out in street mod just cos the mods they come in with put them there. I enjoy the mods too much elsewhere to remove them anyway. DP is a good rallycross mod, helps with turbo spool and breathing.

debbid

12-27-2007, 05:02 PM

Thanks again everyone. There's no way I would have found this info on any other Subaru forum. I'm really excited to try my first Rally-X :D

98obster

12-27-2007, 08:55 PM

+1 go back to stock until something breaks.

If you want a better ride than stock for the street, upgrade your sway bars.

Sway bar question?

Is there a general preference on sways Perrin, Rallitek for impezas? the rallitek f/r kit seems like a good choice. However some run a bigger sway in the front and the kit comes with a 22 front and a 22-24 rear. thanks

Blix666

12-28-2007, 12:26 AM

Thanks again everyone. There's no way I would have found this info on any other Subaru forum. I'm really excited to try my first Rally-X :D

:mrgreen::eek:

sebhockey

12-28-2007, 09:32 AM

+1 for stock suspension. I highly recommend the cobb sway bar kit. I am running both front and rear cobb sways and they perform great. Technically the cobb sways are made by hotchkis for cobb, so hotchkis is good stuff too.

+500 for driver upgrade

UP2MTNS

12-28-2007, 10:15 AM

Sway bar question?

Is there a general preference on sways Perrin, Rallitek for impezas? the rallitek f/r kit seems like a good choice. However some run a bigger sway in the front and the kit comes with a 22 front and a 22-24 rear. thanks

I've never used any of the others...I'm a big Cobb fan, so I'm a little biased.

you only need a 'bigger' front sway if you're auto crossing/tracking the car with stickier tires/surfaces. That will keep the inside front tire from lifting you and losing the ability to accelerate the front tires (because of the open diff, the lifted tire will just start spinning).

on dirt, you'll start sliding (under steering) off the course long before your inside front tire does any lifting. So stick with a softer front sway to get a little more body roll and maximize the traction on that outside tire.

make sense?

98obster

12-28-2007, 05:24 PM

I've never used any of the others...I'm a big Cobb fan, so I'm a little biased.

you only need a 'bigger' front sway if you're auto crossing/tracking the car with stickier tires/surfaces. That will keep the inside front tire from lifting you and losing the ability to accelerate the front tires (because of the open diff, the lifted tire will just start spinning).

on dirt, you'll start sliding (under steering) off the course long before your inside front tire does any lifting. So stick with a softer front sway to get a little more body roll and maximize the traction on that outside tire.

make sense?

yes it does. me thinks. thanks. Well with a 2.2 auto I don't know how much RAlly-X I'll be doing. However, the stock obs fsb (17mm) and rsb (13mm) doesn't seem to do the ole' girl justice. I guess oversteer is more scary than understeer? go figure. Anyways, I might try to get my hands on a better used OE rsb around 18mm and put my $ into mounts and endlinks and perhaps putting in new front endlinks.

Overall I'm looking for a pretty balance feel and perhaps with a 18-20 rear with the 17 front would be close given the wagon's big butt? ::banana::

wolfman79

12-28-2007, 05:54 PM

I've used the OE 13mm, an RS 18mm, and the WRX 20mm. Personally I think the 18 gives you a very balanced setup and with some good endlinks you'll enjoy the handling of your car much more. I am running the 20 with kartboy endlinks and for my driving style it is perfect. However I want to suffix that by saying both I and my wife tend to like a little more tail happy handling. With the weather we've been having lately it can be a little squirrelly if you're not careful.

98obster

12-28-2007, 11:45 PM

thanks for the advice. I think I'm going to go with the RalliTek 19-21 kit: http://yhst-49187380673845.stores.yahoo.net/rareswbar.html and also pick up some WL front end links. Not sure what endlinks are included with the kit though. Opinion? I thought about the OE route (bar and HD mounts) and picking up the links but prices and shipping make it pretty much equal.

Also, I read a link (Nasioc maybe) saying the impreza fsb (93-01) is 19mm? true? or no.
swaybar research is a PITA btw.

wolfman79

12-29-2007, 12:35 AM

Yeah 19 sounds right for the front.

That looks like a really good deal on the kit. Price wise it's almost identical to getting a new OE bar and good endlinks, plus you get the benefit of it being adjustable so you can dial it in how you like. I'd wait to purchase/install the front endlinks until after you've done the rear and had a chance to get used to it. You'll appreciate the difference better if you go one at a time.

98obster

12-29-2007, 01:23 AM

yep, that's what I'll do. But I can imagine the OE front with new links will be a big improvement. I thought about springing for the whole kit but would probably be a nightmare on snow/ice. I wonder who is putting 22f and 22-24r on their GC/GF NAs?

the OBS springs and struts even 10 years out still seem pretty beefy. I would imagine they will hold up to the new rear at least until I break and then upgrade something.

wolfman79

12-29-2007, 07:55 AM

Haha I wish my struts would've held up. I mean it was only one little jump, like they couldn't handle that after ~190k miles.

98obster

12-31-2007, 01:02 PM

Haha I wish my struts would've held up. I mean it was only one little jump, like they couldn't handle that after ~190k miles.

so wolfman, do you think 2000 forester struts and springs would drop into my 98 obs no prob? and without any camber issues, complete compatibility?

409industries

12-31-2007, 01:26 PM

So stick with a softer front sway to get a little more body roll and maximize the traction on that outside tire.

make sense?

On this same thought, some guys disconnect their swaybars all together, and just deal with the body roll since all the tires are staying on the ground longer.

Personally i like having a big rear swaybar.

wolfman79

12-31-2007, 03:42 PM

so wolfman, do you think 2000 forester struts and springs would drop into my 98 obs no prob? and without any camber issues, complete compatibility?

Just re-use your stock top hats and you are good to go. Gives it a nice little lift too. Any camber or alignment issues will be no different than any other suspension change.

JacksonRally

12-31-2007, 06:04 PM

98obster

12-31-2007, 07:02 PM

:waving: Yup I removed my front anti-roll bar, thinking about upsizing the rear..

ha, looks like you're rollin pretty good in your sig.

so, i know nothing but taking out the front sway and putting in a big rear is huge understear or does it all depend on spring rates and camber settings?

wolfman79

12-31-2007, 07:51 PM

ha, looks like you're rollin pretty good in your sig.

so, i know nothing but taking out the front sway and putting in a big rear is huge understear or does it all depend on spring rates and camber settings?

Got it backwards. Big rear and no front equals lots of oversteer.

However I've always been told to start with spring/damping rates first along with alignment and that swaybars should be last and for fine tuning. Of course that costs money and it is much cheaper and easier to swap out sways. Lord knows I've gone that route many a time.

98obster

12-31-2007, 08:43 PM

Got it backwards. Big rear and no front equals lots of oversteer.

However I've always been told to start with spring/damping rates first along with alignment and that swaybars should be last and for fine tuning. Of course that costs money and it is much cheaper and easier to swap out sways. Lord knows I've gone that route many a time.

oh yeah, duh. (max) oversteer, I guess i knew that much. And I guess the rsb would translate somewhat to the front depending on body stiffness, but the front tires should still be pretty much welded to the gravel on turns.

Well anyways, my cheapo project involves hopefully swapping in some '00 forester coils and struts and putting running a 19mm rsb and upgraded links front and rear. So, a somewhat stiffer ride with 2-3 inches lift. stay with the 15" wheels but maybe go with a 205/65r15.

wolfman79

12-31-2007, 08:55 PM

oh yeah, duh. (max) oversteer, I guess i knew that much. And I guess the rsb would translate somewhat to the front depending on body stiffness, but the front tires should still be pretty much welded to the gravel on turns.
Figured it was just a typo, gotta use up the 07 allotment before they expire right.

Well anyways, my cheapo project involves hopefully swapping in some '00 forester coils and struts ($250-too much?) and putting running a 19mm rsb and upgraded links front and rear. So, a somewhat stiffer ride with 2-3 inches lift. stay with the 15" wheels but maybe go with a 205/65r15.

You've almost described my intended setup to the letter. For tires though we were thinking more in the neighborhood of like a 215/70r15. going to be some massive wheel gap might as well take advantage of it.

Happy New Year

98obster

01-01-2008, 10:41 PM

well, trying to figure this out still I guess. I'm weighing the options between a suspension upgrade (b/c my original struts/springs won't last forever) and getting a small lift and improved ride.

so,
1) should I get my lift freak on by buying some used forester take offs (pretty cheap)
2) buy the above new (not so cheap but more peace of mind)
3) buy struts and coilover springs (forester)
or
4) man up and go with coilovers (new or used) eg. ksports for Foresters #CSB01-KP http://www.ksportusa.com/asp/coilovers_detail.asp?product_id=cd01

unknown is any fitment issures with the forester coilovers and the obs-can't think of any but I would hate to plop on $900 without being sure.

I guess this is going back to the spring an coilover debate for offroad, rallyx, snow, and street etc.. probably not one setup for all categories. Option 1 may have to do for now, eh?

oh yeah, this seemed like a good deal if they would work: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ksport-Coilover-Kit-Subaru-Forester-98-02-Springs_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q2em118QQca tegoryZ33582QQihZ013QQitemZ230021653490QQrdZ1QQssp agenameZWD1V

sebhockey

01-01-2008, 10:50 PM

I would suggest going ahead and getting some forester take offs. You can prolly get 2 sets for the price of 1 and have more life combined in them than brand new ones.

Avoid buying coilovers unless you're ready to pony up $2000+ for quality that will actually equal or surpass that of a strut/spring combo.

409industries

01-01-2008, 10:56 PM

I think if youre budget, go for the used forrester springs and struts. You can get a good idea how it all handles before you spend a lot of money on new ones, not to mention the used ones will be way cheap! If its just rallyx, youll get quite a bit of use out of them for your buck too!

Coilovers are going to be expensive, but if you're really serious about "having fun" aka abusing the hell out of your suby, there are limitations to performance in a spring / strut combo. You can't skimp in the suspension department. Coilovers are going to be one of the major purchases ill be making this year for my rally project... and i can't wait!

Airborne subies FTW

wolfman79

01-01-2008, 10:56 PM

I'd say option #1. Then you can start planning and saving for a major upgrade down the road. Coilovers are nice and while I fully intend to have some one day they do have drawbacks however. Namely that if they are not set up right in corner balancing then you end up with an even worse system. The forester struts and springs as well as the 95-99 OB's will all work with our cars and give us a decent lift.

SoCalBoomer

01-03-2008, 10:10 AM

On this same thought, some guys disconnect their swaybars all together, and just deal with the body roll since all the tires are staying on the ground longer.

Personally i like having a big rear swaybar.

Just as a note to this - I heard a veteran and highly successful stage rally guy say that he puts the softest springs possible on his car, and then the beefiest swaybars he can - he wants the suspension soft but the car "flat", period.

Just food for thought. . .

JacksonRally

01-03-2008, 10:47 AM

Just as a note to this - I heard a veteran and highly successful stage rally guy say that he puts the softest springs possible on his car, and then the beefiest swaybars he can - he wants the suspension soft but the car "flat", period.

Just food for thought. . .

That what I'm gonna do when I get some money to invest in some new struts/springs. I gonna order springs to just hold the car up at my desired ride height and let the valving do the rest. Probably still only run a rear ARB, stiffer one though.

ProjectBomber

01-05-2008, 06:20 PM

hey guys this thread has a lot of great info. i'm a total newb to rally-x or off-roading in a suby at all. so i was wondering what the major difference is between the wrx and forester suspension? taller overall? what would wrx springs do to forester struts?

a little side note about debbid... he's on his second suby and like his tenth suspension lol.

98obster

01-05-2008, 08:26 PM

...what the major difference is between the wrx and forester suspension? taller overall? what would wrx springs do to forester struts?

www.cars101.com (http://www.cars101.com) should be your homepage :eek:

I haven't researched your inquiry but the main difference (stock wise) is that the Forester is the tallest subaru suspension made (that's the word on the street anyway), even taller than outback.

Actually it's what forester struts would do to wrx springs. the springs would not be happy-way to much unsprung energy. and the struts would have little travel left in it. I'm trying to imagine the ride-you would need a mouth guard.:lol2: it would be the hatfield and mccoys under there.

anyone got any actual facts to back this up. I'm just coming to logical conclusions. Forester assemblies are HUGE-at least 3-4 inches longer than Impreza (assuming wrx is close).

wolfman79

01-05-2008, 09:49 PM

anyone got any actual facts to back this up. I'm just coming to logical conclusions. Forester assemblies are HUGE-at least 3-4 inches longer than Impreza (assuming wrx is close).

WRX struts are the same length as regular Imprezas, I have a set laying around that never made it in the OBS. The difference in ride height between different Imprezas is all in the springs. The Legacys up until '99 used the same mounting points and similar length to the Imprezas (not sure on specifics) but the OB's used a longer strut and spring. Outback struts and springs will give a mild lift to an Impreza in the 1-2 inch range while the Forester struts and springs give more in the 3-4 inch range (see 980bster). In the interest of keeping decent ride quality and not risking prematurely wearing out your struts it is best to keep the struts paired with the proper springs. All GC/GM/GF/GG Imprezas, BC/BF/BD/BG/BK Legacys and Outbacks, and SF/SG Foresters all use strut assemblies that are interchangeable if used with the proper top hats. The GD Imprezas use the same rear strut mounts as the others but because of the wider front track swapping to/from other models will cause camber issues.

I hope that helps. As an FYI my OBS will be getting an OB suspension in the upcoming months, this to me provides a decent compromise between on street handling and enough lift to let us have fun on some of our favorite roads/trails.

98obster

01-05-2008, 10:29 PM

As an FYI my OBS will be getting an OB suspension in the upcoming months, this to me provides a decent compromise between on street handling and enough lift to let us have fun on some of our favorite roads/trails.

I would think that the rear tophat bolt pattern in the obs and Outback (cause they are wagons?). I also think the '99 legacy mounts will fit in OBSs-but this:
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg240/jhonyd/IMG_0705.jpg

is almost as easy as taking apart the the assembly to change tophats.

(of course anything anyone does to their car is entirely their responsibility-etc. etc. blah blah)

wolfman79

01-05-2008, 11:09 PM

I would think that the rear tophat bolt pattern in the obs and Outback (cause they are wagons?). I also think the '99 legacy mounts will fit in OBSs-but this:
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg240/jhonyd/IMG_0705.jpg

is almost as easy as taking apart the the assembly to change tophats.

(of course anything anyone does to their car is entirely their responsibility-etc. etc. blah blah)

I agree if you can get a complete assemby then just re-drill the rear towers to fit. The front tophats are the same on all of the models that I listed, it is only the rears that vary slightly in exact bolt location. If it is not a complete assembly then it is best to re-use your stock top hats.

ProjectBomber

01-06-2008, 08:18 AM

www.cars101.com (http://www.cars101.com) should be your homepage :eek:

I haven't researched your inquiry but the main difference (stock wise) is that the Forester is the tallest subaru suspension made (that's the word on the street anyway), even taller than outback.

Actually it's what forester struts would do to wrx springs. the springs would not be happy-way to much unsprung energy. and the struts would have little travel left in it. I'm trying to imagine the ride-you would need a mouth guard.:lol2: it would be the hatfield and mccoys under there.

anyone got any actual facts to back this up. I'm just coming to logical conclusions. Forester assemblies are HUGE-at least 3-4 inches longer than Impreza (assuming wrx is close).

thanks for the input. that's the info i was looking for. 3-4 inch lift would be pretty bad ass.

98obster

01-06-2008, 09:42 AM

no prob.
here's some links that I found/and continually finding on my search for this solution.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1184053
http://www.scoobymods.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7370
http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=7607
http://www.dirtyimpreza.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1470

It's a great little club we are members of Zap, Dome24, Hondaslayer, etc.

This is my favorite pic:
http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/photos/data/500/obsdif2.jpg

I can't wait to roll up next to an OBS in traffic and look down at them, ha. Well, unless they are higher than me with 17" rims.

I think the only observation I've made is that if you are using the XT strut/springs then camber might be an issue.

I would have looked on ultimatesubaru for a few posts that I've read but the site really sucks right now with all the server problems they are having (a plus for DI.com)