Disconnecting swaybar question

[THansenite]

Last season, I did a lot of autocrossing with my 2.5RS and put a Whiteline front sway on the car to help me on pavement. This season, I have started going to a few rallycrosses and want the independent suspension travel on the front. How do you guys go about disconnecting the sway bar.

Of course, I know that I have to unbolt it, but how do you go about securing the bar so it doesn't get in the way during your runs? Do you disconnect both sides or only one? Thanks for the help.

[omahasubaru]

you can disconnect one side to de-activate it basically. If that causes you any clunking or otherwise, then you may want to undo both sides and ziptie it up out of the way.

[409industries]

Its very easy to take the front swaybar out, you just need to remove the mounts and disconnect the endlinks. Simple hand tools is all you need (socket set, maybe a breaker bar).

If you DO opt to keep the swaybar attached to the mounts, but disconnected from the endlinks definitely ziptie the ends up and out of the way.

[THansenite]

Its very easy to take the front swaybar out, you just need to remove the mounts and disconnect the endlinks. Simple hand tools is all you need (socket set, maybe a breaker bar).

If you DO opt to keep the swaybar attached to the mounts, but disconnected from the endlinks definitely ziptie the ends up and out of the way.

I'd rather not have to get under the car before and after the event to completely remove the swaybar.

I have been thinking about just disconnecting one side, but I don't want that to shift the swaybar laterally and have issues when I go back to connect it.

[KevinWelker]

the sway bar will slide laterally with minimal force. You can easily recenter it by hand. Don't over think it.

[godfather1138]

I've seen this brought up a few times, but haven't really looked into it much. I will be going to my first Rallycross events this season, and so I'm now curious as to how much this can really help lap times.

[Draco-REX]

The front sway bar in the GD doesn't really get in the way of anything, and it's shaped so that it won't snag on the ground either. I just unbolt my endlinks and push the bar up. There's nothing to really ziptie it to. I've done a couple seasons with the front bar just disconnected. Don't worry about it.

[Draco-REX]

I've seen this brought up a few times, but haven't really looked into it much. I will be going to my first Rallycross events this season, and so I'm now curious as to how much this can really help lap times.

I feel it helps a lot. The car has more grip and feels more predictable to me. The only time I wish I had sways is on long fast sweepers where I'm gripping instead of sliding. The body leans a lot and it feels like I could get more grip if the car was more stable. But there's only one corner that I have this issue on and we don't run it as much any more.

[omahasubaru]

^^

What spring rates are you running?

[Dan McGinn]

resurrecting this thread to show a pic of my GC with no front sway bar.

http://www.onalimbracing.com/photos/2011_New_England_Forest_Rally/IMG_6621.jpg

full compression on one side, full extension on the other.

[Draco-REX]

^^

What spring rates are you running?
Stock STI rates.. not sure what they are, but they're not a whole lot. Though as I lighten the car I wonder if I would be better off with WRX springs.

resurrecting this thread to show a pic of my GC with no front sway bar.

full compression on one side, full extension on the other.

I had a similar picture somewhere. Passengers often comment on how much smoother my car is compared to others they've ridden in.

[eage8]

I disconnected mine and it was incredibly "floppy"... I felt like I was just going from bump stop to bump stop in slaloms. I do only have stock RS springs though.

[lminette]

I run with sways and have been pretty successful that way. 22mm up front and 22-25 (set to 22) in the rear.

[Cambo]

now im curious to see how i do without a sway bar in front... ive done good with it but can it make me faster without? more or less under steer? more body roll?

mind you, my 06 WRX is completely stock aside from being gutted internally.

[A1337STI]

No front sway with a rear? or no front sway with no rear sway?

I think no sways will work better than a rear only. the rear only makes your car more oversteerish, but ** i think ** also slower

[RSTi]

ive won 2 out of the 3 rallyx's ive competed in with no sway bars front or rear. granted i dont know how that compares to running with either bar but i cant complain with the results!

[A1337STI]

I've won my last 5 rally crosses in a row (classs wins, with an overall in there) and 2 out of 4 days of full stage. stock 18mm front sway, no rear. (overall poduim in there too)

I think the subjective "so and so likes this, or won with this" isn't as helpful as some real world testing would provide:

:shock: At some point I'm going to find a good testing road/loop. and test no sways, 18 front, 13 rear, 18+13, and maybe I'll try 19+13 ... I just need a weekend where i don't need to do servicing on my car... lol


and i think i need to race VS RSTI :)

[alosix]

I think Alex.. you were beat by a stock suspended bug eye one of those days recently.. and it doesn't have a front sway.

I need to do a test as well. This really seems to be a driver pref thing though.

Best I can tell, the Prodrive prepped WRC cars all run sways front/rear.. but they are smaller straight bars with neat ends. Need to build some of those for my car :)


Jason

[A1337STI]

If you're talking about Brent, Brent does run with his sways connected. i think Drew does as well ... but i'm not as certain ...

Think i want to ask everyone in our region now.. and looking at how people do on the muddy days would be interesting. I would figure no sways for mud would help ... but again i'm not sure.

Since my lap times are usually Consistent. maybe we should disconnect the sways on Betsy next event, half way through the run group. (I could maybe do this both days, and or combine this testing with rear sway bar ) ....

Should i start connected, and after 1/2 the runs disconnect. Usually i improve by 1-2 seconds first run to last run and hit less cones. so if that trend reverses we know what's faster.

We could even make it a blind test. i could have someone else do the disconnect, connection so that i don't know how its configured prior to running.. honestly I feel that i could test it while knowing, but i also know I'm bias as to thinking sways are faster (ESP on a rallyX Course)

hmm..

so i want to test (eventually)
No Sways
18mm front only
19mm front only

18 + 13
19 + 13
19 + 17 ?? I don't have a 17 yet, and i would want to wait to see some data that shows that 13 in the rear is a benefit.

One more thought... If the difference is small, could it be a driver preference thing? could it be that I'm faster with sways, but someone else, in my car would be faster with no sways? ... hmmmm

[alosix]

Yeah.. talking about brent.. Pretty sure the last time I was talking to him about this the phrase 'non of my cars have front sway bars' came out of him..

Drew.. I've got no clue.. I'd love 10 minutes under that car...


Jason

[RSTi]

yea thats true testing needs to be done and realy in the end it comes down to driver preference i think. although i will say this: if you plan on autocrossing the car at all, make sure you have sways, when i ran one for fun my car leaned like crazy and i ended up powersliding the car alot in situations when i couldnt have been able to. lol

[Draco-REX]

The key to RallyX is that there is so little grip to play with. Aside from the obviously wrong setups (stiff springs, low ride heights, etc) suspension setup doesn't have a huge impact on performance, so it really comes down to the driver. Even tire choice is secondary for the most part. I think what matters most is driver preference. What feels better to the driver and lets the driver have more confidence in the car?

For some, I'm sure sways provide confidence by reducing body roll and creating a handling "feel" that matches what the driver expects. Personally, I love having no sways. The car feels "right" to me and behaves in a way that I find predictable, so I have more confidence in the car which means I can commit to turns more readily and therefore go faster.

So I think people should experiment and find out what works for them. And they shouldn't focus on how they place, but how the car behaves. Does it do what you want, when you want it to? When the car is dancing to your tune (and not the other way around) then you can concentrate on improving your times.

Remember, the car doesn't make you fast, YOU make the car fast.

[alosix]

One more thought... If the difference is small, could it be a driver preference thing? could it be that I'm faster with sways, but someone else, in my car would be faster with no sways? ... hmmmm

I'd def say that's true.. There's a part in 'Engineering the Rally' where the 'data geeks' are arguing with Petter about what the car needs. They gave up and went with his suggestion and he was faster. Its not always about the fastest possible car setup, its about a fast car that gives the driver confidence to drive it fast.

Alex.. I'd probably throw the 13 rear sway + no front in that test list as well.I'd bet it'll loosen the car up a good bit, but I'm not sure you really need that.

Jason

[RSTi]

The key to RallyX is that there is so little grip to play with. Aside from the obviously wrong setups (stiff springs, low ride heights, etc) suspension setup doesn't have a huge impact on performance, so it really comes down to the driver. Even tire choice is secondary for the most part. I think what matters most is driver preference. What feels better to the driver and lets the driver have more confidence in the car?

For some, I'm sure sways provide confidence by reducing body roll and creating a handling "feel" that matches what the driver expects. Personally, I love having no sways. The car feels "right" to me and behaves in a way that I find predictable, so I have more confidence in the car which means I can commit to turns more readily and therefore go faster.

So I think people should experiment and find out what works for them. And they shouldn't focus on how they place, but how the car behaves. Does it do what you want, when you want it to? When the car is dancing to your tune (and not the other way around) then you can concentrate on improving your times.

Remember, the car doesn't make you fast, YOU make the car fast.

quoted for truth. (although i still am running autocross springs and semi-stiff rear dampening lol)

I also find the car behaving predictably with out sways despite it still being lowered on autocross springs. It doesnt dance around on me unless i want it to and i can easily induce a slide when wanted/needed. i may get some stock sways and see how i like it with them installed for kicks and giggles

As everyone else is saying though, it comes down to driver preference. Everyone is different.

[eage8]

yeah, but that's why you like your sway bars disconnected... because you have stiffer springs.

you can't talk about disconnecting sway bars without talking about what springs you're running.

[409industries]

I'd def say that's true.. There's a part in 'Engineering the Rally' where the 'data geeks' are arguing with Petter about what the car needs. They gave up and went with his suggestion and he was faster. Its not always about the fastest possible car setup, its about a fast car that gives the driver confidence to drive it fast.


This is very true. So much of racing is mental, and if you don't have confidence in the setup you're running you could psych yourself out thinking about how the car is not handling right, even if it isn't as bad as you're imagining.

Generally i do run a RSB because i like being able to get my car to oversteer, but on rougher events i'll run no swaybars to get maximum travel independently on each corner.

[A1337STI]

so what's going to be your top secret plan for Gorman? no sways? :O

[409industries]

so what's going to be your top secret plan for Gorman? no sways? :O

Ain't no secret!. no sways. :thumbsup:

[slowautoxr]

I like this topic. My RS is setup for the SCCA stock class which only allows changes to the front bar. I've only done one event in the RS since I got it and since then, I've done a lot of maintenance work - including new struts, brakes, tires, and alignment. With worn out tires and worn out struts, the car was suprisingly quick but still a little pushy. We'll see how this weekend goes.

My other rallycross car is a 1st gen RX-7 and I completely removed the rear swaybar and have the front swaybar disconnected (in case I want to reattach it).

[alosix]

I like this topic. My RS is setup for the SCCA stock class which only allows changes to the front bar. I've only done one event in the RS since I got it and since then, I've done a lot of maintenance work - including new struts, brakes, tires, and alignment. With worn out tires and worn out struts, the car was suprisingly quick but still a little pushy. We'll see how this weekend goes.

Sounds like my WRX, but I've got 3 (well 5 days) rallyx on it so far. It works, both sways, a little pushy if I don't setup the corner well, tires mostly bald now. Struts dead.. but it still keeps going :)...

[UP2MTNS]

I'll add my .02 here....

I agree seat time and knowing your car is paramount. That said, from a technical stand point....

On a stock car, not running sways will have the most effect because of the softer springs....however, in order to get weight transfer, you also need momentum, which comes from speed.....so no matter what your setup , in a really tight, 1st gear only rallyX course, you won't feel much difference.

on a slightly faster course, then yes, sways (or no sways) should make a bit of a difference assuming the same driver, same car, etc, etc. Of course, you then get into the issue(s) of: if its a really rough course, etc, etc. But that's venue specific and I won't go there.

For guys running after market/rally suspensions, then your springs will be quite a bit stiffer....DMS gravel springs are approx 1.5X more stiff than stock. I can't tell the difference running w/ or w/o sways at a rallyX on DMS suspension (for whatever that's worth to you).


Stage rally is a whole other league and I've only run w/o sways, but haven't ever considered putting them back on. Car is very stable at +100mph on dirt roads and eats up any bumps/jumps and keeps all 4 on the floor pretty well, so I'm not changing that anytime soon.

[A1337STI]

Ain't no secret!. no sways. :thumbsup:

I've ran the past 2 years with sways, but last year i broke the end link on stage 2 and i don't know that we ever got a chance to fix it... i had a lot of issues during that rally. :shock: :-x

[Dan McGinn]

I
Stage rally is a whole other league and I've only run w/o sways, but haven't ever considered putting them back on. Car is very stable at +100mph on dirt roads and eats up any bumps/jumps and keeps all 4 on the floor pretty well, so I'm not changing that anytime soon.

To elaborate on my above pic, and agree with ^, I'm not an old salt at rally, but my experience is the same DMS 50s, no sways, stable, rotates AWESOME, keeps the wheels planted well.

[pomspeed]

Finally read through the whole thread. Mostly boils down to each person. As to the original post, you'll see where you can use zip ties to secure a sway bar. I'd recommend disconnecting them from the suspension and use the endlink to tie them off. Then if you want to reconnect, simply rebolt to the suspension.

As for testing to determine what works, testing is the only way to figure it out. Seat time helps first, as you are likely to just get faster everytime you do a run.

My method is to set up a course with various elements, slalom/sweeper/transition turns(both tight and open). Do at least 10 runs to determine a baseline "I can't do any better" concept.

Make ONE change to the car, making more than one change will only confuse and mislead.

better or worse? it's easy.

My philosophy used to be to run without sway bars.

I established a baseline of 10 runs leveling out at 1:10. Connect the rear sway bar and in two runs I was already running 1:07. I used to believe in running no sway bars, not anymore. So the total setup of my PA car is stock '02 WRX with K&N airfliter, skidplate, 15" VW wheels with rally tires, no front swaybar, lots of go fast sponsor stickers and everything else is stock.

Brent

[omahasubaru]

I think bars help when your on stock or stock like (non-STi) suspension no question there. It's a good tuning method to use.

[A1337STI]

Funny Brent is on the polar opposite setup as me ... hmm... guess i need to do more research and testing... :O

[omahasubaru]

Assuming stock suspension for stock, your STi has more shock and rate than a WRX so it doesn't translate 100%.

[omahasubaru]

I am officially swaybar-less after testing in Oklahoma this weekend. My car feels great now, never better! I get a lot of roll control out of my AST 5100 Rally suspension.

Debating on running it as is, or upping the front spring rates... just a tad.

[Moby45]

you also seemed to have run a bit quicker when you did also Omaha. Too bad it was too hot outside to run the 2nd set of heats.

I am debating on if I should disconnect the sways on my WRX for nationals this year. I am on STi springs. but the shocks can be soften up softer than stock. So I guess I will need to do some testing.

[slowautoxr]

I was prepared to disconnect my front sway bar this past weekend (in Tulsa) but not once did my car understeer. The car did understeer a couple of weeks ago on my local track, so maybe the new struts and alignment helped. We'll have our next event in a few weeks so I'll know for sure.

[Moby45]

I think omaha has some rallyish suspension. So maybe taking off the sways was good for that bennifit.
I didnt have much understeer either aside from running on summer tires. But most of me understeer from summer tire awesomeness was easily managable by the good ol scandinavian flick.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

[omahasubaru]

you also seemed to have run a bit quicker when you did also Omaha. Too bad it was too hot outside to run the 2nd set of heats.

Yes. My first run was so sloppy as I was just over driving everywhere. It was a throw away for me :( I decided after it that now is as good as any time to try running w/o the front swaybar. The site was slick in the first heat, fresh grass and all. On my 2nd run I fixed a lot of driver mistakes (pulled back my brake points and smoothed out). Turn-in was much improved with the front bar de-activated. I sort of caught me out on turn-in a few times and I had to correct. That run was better, but not quite where I felt I should have been (still had decent sized errors). After that, I made a few minor shock adjustments and on my 3rd run I had a good grasp on how the car was handling and what driving errors to correct. On my 3rd run I still made a few mistakes, but I managed to put together a pretty good run and I was fairly pleased with the time.

I was really looking forward to afternoon runs (aside from the heat) as I felt I could be fast and consistent from the get go. It was not to be though since they had to call it after just 2 heats.

I think omaha has some rallyish suspension. So maybe taking off the sways was good for that bennifit.
A spot on assessment. I have rather aggressive valving on my AST 5100 Rally Coilovers, so it does a bang up job at controlling weight. Based on some pics I saw from the event I could probably use a little more front spring. Maybe 50-75 lb/in or so.

I'm just going to run it as is for the National Championship. Maybe next year I can do more testing with spring rates and ride heights. I just know I liked my handling for the first time those last 2 runs and I don't want to possibly ruin that before Nationals. The only changes I might be making before Nationals is pulling some interior items to remove some more weight from the car, but we will see. I like having my car 100% streetable and with full interior.

Thanks - Jon

[slowautoxr]

Jon did you not make some fun runs afterwards? Ryan and I made a couple each after we made a change to the car. We both ran in the 94's. We then changed back to the original setup and ran a few more runs to confirm the change. We both ran 93's again. Having fun runs really did ease the disappointment of only getting 3 runs.

[omahasubaru]

Jon did you not make some fun runs afterwards?
No fun runs here. I had a 7+ hour drive home w/o A/C so I just wanted to get on the road.

Ryan and I made a couple each after we made a change to the car. We both ran in the 94's. We then changed back to the original setup and ran a few more runs to confirm the change. We both ran 93's again.
Care to share what changes you made? If it involved front swaybar, I'd bet on your stock like dampers + OE springs you would be faster w/ the front swaybar connected for sure.

How was the course/surface after the grass was cleared off grip wise. I heard tire squeal through the last section where I worked from a few cars. It sounds like you were still ultimately in the 93's so not a lot of time was gained from the course later in the day then?

[slowautoxr]

Ryan and I stayed the night. We were looking at 10+ hours of driving after the event. We had already planned to stay the night. I was really glad as those extra runs and packing up really did put a beating on us.

I fooled around with the toe. At the next local event I'm gonna mess with the front sway bar - assuming it's not blistering hot.

Ryan ran about the same time as his last run so it I think it's fair to say that the surface was consistent. Grip I really can't comment on since that was only my 2nd rallycross in that car. I'd say the surface reacted much like what we experience in Alabama. Once the grass is knocked off, the track becomes consistent.