How F'd am I...DRTYWGN

[JacksonRally]

I don't know where to start. Here it goes, my last run in Laughlin I noticed a major decrease in power??? Car idles fine and is driveable, but there is a major power loss. So about 3 weeks go by and I only drive back and forth to work and contact a few people who try to help. My buddy comes by and hooks up his Accessport and we do some driving around and he notices I am only pushing max 5psi boost? Seems like a simple fix, something is loose...hose clamp, small wastegate lines...etc....something small. So we took off my intake, mafs, intercooler and looked for anything out of place or broken. Nothing was out of the ordinary except for all the crud and when I say crud I mean dirt, muck, paste like mess in the turbo outlet, intercooler and throttle body!!!!! So I cleaned everything top to bottom, inside and out. No change in performance, plus now the car is running rough and really can't accelerate due to what I can only describe as someone choking the intake...car lunges forward then craps out on and off...Car barely drives now. I am not gonna drive it any more till I figure out whats wrong.

NOT GOOD!!

My guess...muck/sludge made its way into the engine. How can I actually confirm this? My recent oil change (4 weeks ago) showed nothing out of the ordinary. Motor is 100% stock and I religiously change the oil and air filter.

I just really want to figure out whats wrong, if the motor needs to come out then so be it but I want to be sure first. Also why did all the crap get passed the filter? I have stock intake, like I think most of us have.

Thanks in advance

Kyle

[RALLYxISH728]

Damn bro, seems like you already did everything we spoke about earlier this week. I forgot to ask you to take me for a ride so I can hear it for myself as well, like I told you when we spoke I was having the same bogging issue but mine was due to a boost leak, seems like your's is way more severe than just a leak somewhere. Hopefully the damage isn't too bad.

[lminette]

Have you tried borrowing someones MAF that you know is in good working order. Might be the place to start since it's the cheaper option.

[rollo]

Urgh Kyle that sucks. I remember reading that someone had a stock airbox setup and that somehow when it got really dusty and clogged, it kinda made the panel filter "bow in" and let dust/dirt through around the sides. Obviously that's kinda third-hand knowledge but I guess it might explain how the dirt got in there. Not that it helps you now, but I've always run a cone filter, and I just got a filter wrap (catches the worst dust) for rallycross and other dusty conditions. Seems to be a good combo.

It might also be coincidental.. unlikely, but possible. Some random thoughts you probably already thought of.. I suppose the on/off surging "choked" feeling could also be fuel starvation. Did you check the fuel filter and/or run some injector cleaner through it? CEL on? Is it throwing any OBD2 codes? I have an OBD2 interface that can hook to a laptop and log the outputs (RPM, TPS, temp, open/closed loop etc etc) if it would help. If the MAF is clogged or damaged from the dirt, the ECU could be getting the wrong signals, those things are usually really sensitive. Would it be worth resetting the ECU?

[JacksonRally]

Good idea, I'll try that. I'm just so worried cause of all the gunk that made it all the way to the throttle body.

[JacksonRally]

Urgh Kyle that sucks. I remember reading that someone had a stock airbox setup and that somehow when it got really dusty and clogged, it kinda made the panel filter "bow in" and let dust/dirt through around the sides. Obviously that's kinda third-hand knowledge but I guess it might explain how the dirt got in there. Not that it helps you now, but I've always run a cone filter, and I just got a filter wrap (catches the worst dust) for rallycross and other dusty conditions. Seems to be a good combo.

It might also be coincidental.. unlikely, but possible. Some random thoughts you probably already thought of.. I suppose the on/off surging "choked" feeling could also be fuel starvation. Did you check the fuel filter and/or run some injector cleaner through it? CEL on? Is it throwing any OBD2 codes? I have an OBD2 interface that can hook to a laptop and log the outputs (RPM, TPS, temp, open/closed loop etc etc) if it would help. If the MAF is clogged or damaged from the dirt, the ECU could be getting the wrong signals, those things are usually really sensitive. Would it be worth resetting the ECU?


I was thinking fuel starvation also but sinse it is less likely to allow dirt into the system I have not checked the filter, but I will...good idea. There is no CEL and I have reset the ECU everytime I cleaned the intake system. If I could get you out here to check it out that would be awesome cause I know nothing about what to look for if there was a laptop hooked up to her.

I think you may have found the culprit though cause the filter I had from Laughlin was torn down one side and sagging in the box. I change my filter after every event.

[rollo]

Another thought.. where does the dirt start to show up in the route of the intake? The "paste like mess" kinda reminds me a lot of what happens when a G60 (VW supercharger) bearing goes bad - the impellers hit the inside of the housing, shaving little chunks off, which it then spits out as dirty, sludgy paste (microscopic metal shavings plus oil blowby). It gets into everything past the charger. I don't have any experience (thank goodness) with a turbo going bad, but it seems likely that if there was high RPM metal-to-metal contact going on, that it would show up as similar paste in everything past the turbo (i.e. turbo outlet, IC, TB like you said). That would also match up with the low boost condition.. but it doesn't really explain why it got worse after you cleaned it.

[JacksonRally]

I think once this is figured out I will run a SPT intake with a filter wrap.

[JacksonRally]

Another thought.. where does the dirt start to show up in the route of the intake? The "paste like mess" kinda reminds me a lot of what happens when a G60 (VW supercharger) bearing goes bad - the impellers hit the inside of the housing, shaving little chunks off, which it then spits out as dirty, sludgy paste (microscopic metal shavings plus oil blowby). It gets into everything past the charger. I don't have any experience (thank goodness) with a turbo going bad, but it seems likely that if there was high RPM metal-to-metal contact going on, that it would show up as similar paste in everything past the turbo (i.e. turbo outlet, IC, TB like you said). That would also match up with the low boost condition.. but it doesn't really explain why it got worse after you cleaned it.


The paste mess is only coming out of the turbo, then all the way through the IC (which is very clogged with it) to the throttle body. It is silverish and definetly mixing with the oil blowby. This could be possible sinse I was noticing lack of power (low boost) prior to it running really bad. As far as the inlet to the turbo (after maf and filter) it is mostly dusty. Its after turbo where the mess begins.

[JacksonRally]

I think it was going to get worse no matter what. I was just hoping cleaning everything real good would help.

[lminette]

Sounds like VF39 time!!!

[sebhockey]

The paste mess is only coming out of the turbo, then all the way through the IC (which is very clogged with it) to the throttle body. It is silverish and definetly mixing with the oil blowby. This could be possible sinse I was noticing lack of power (low boost) prior to it running really bad. As far as the inlet to the turbo (after maf and filter) it is mostly dusty. Its after turbo where the mess begins.

Sounds like it's time to pull the turbo and check that baby out. Just steal the one out of your bro's car and see if you're good. He will never notice. :muhaha:

[JacksonRally]

Sounds like VF39 time!!!


Thats coming no matter what :machinegunleft:

Oh yeah the car revs fine in neutral. Thats the only time it seems normal.

[RALLYxISH728]

Kyle, check you PM.

[rollo]

Yeah, I'd agree. Assuming it is turbo failure, the dust definitely wouldn't have helped, and would likely have accelerated the failure if it got in there. Plus of course now your sludge is gonna be dust+metal shavings+oil blowby. If the paste was silvery though, there's metal in it. You can feel it too, if you squish it. Dust only would be more gritty, metal kinda.. I dunno how to describe it.. like margarine?

I guess pull it apart (again) and check for play in the shaft...

[JacksonRally]

Yeah, I'd agree. Assuming it is turbo failure, the dust definitely wouldn't have helped, and would likely have accelerated the failure if it got in there. Plus of course now your sludge is gonna be dust+metal shavings+oil blowby. If the paste was silvery though, there's metal in it. You can feel it too, if you squish it. Dust only would be more gritty, metal kinda.. I dunno how to describe it.. like margarine?

I guess pull it apart (again) and check for play in the shaft...

I will pull it apart. What do you think about it being all the way by the throttle body. I have'nt pulled the intake manifold but I may do that. I'm just wondering how to tell if there is internal damage to the motor. Maybe I could send an oil sample out for analysis.

[rollo]

Thats coming no matter what :machinegunleft:

Oh yeah the car revs fine in neutral. Thats the only time it seems normal.

i.e. no load, when it doesn't expect any boost.. hmm.. case for blown turbo strengthens. Sounds like the car is okay otherwise though, which is good (i.e. no bits of metal sucked into the engine proper).

[JacksonRally]

Yes no load.

[rollo]

I will pull it apart. What do you think about it being all the way by the throttle body. I have'nt pulled the intake manifold but I may do that. I'm just wondering how to tell if there is internal damage to the motor. Maybe I could send an oil sample out for analysis.

Yeah, if it got all the way through to the TB exit, that's pretty shocking, it might be worth a look in the intake manifold. Bit of a pain. Hopefully the stuff didn't actually get into the internals. If the engine revs okay in neutral though, and doesn't make any horrible mechanical sounds, and no misfires or whatever, it's hard to imagine that there's too much wrong with it.

[JacksonRally]

Looks like I have my work cut out for me. And during the busiest time of year. Right now I have zero time to tear into it. Yay!

[worldrallyblue]

Just Read entire thread... sounds like a bummer. You got PM kyle.

[UP2MTNS]

My turbo is dying too.....so don't feel bad.

20g ftw! :D

[overtheover]

it would make sense to be teh turbo if it only dies under load...
also, have you checked the headers/up pipe area for breaks/bends/leaks?
or the oil pan for debris?
loose or borked ecu plug?
should send your intake manifold to grimmspeed for port/polish and a nice coating :)

sorry for the misfortune, but we all get some....:)

[JacksonRally]

it would make sense to be teh turbo if it only dies under load...
also, have you checked the headers/up pipe area for breaks/bends/leaks?
or the oil pan for debris?
loose or borked ecu plug?
should send your intake manifold to grimmspeed for port/polish and a nice coating :)

sorry for the misfortune, but we all get some....:)

Yea I've been checking everything pre-turbo, for cracks etc. Oil pan is good! I changed the oil days before noticing anything wrong.

Grimmspeed is definetly gonna get some of my business no matter what direction this takes me ;)

[JacksonRally]

My turbo is dying too.....so don't feel bad.

20g ftw! :D

That sucks but I know you were planning an upgrade anyways right? :machinegunleft:

My car is only 1 year old with 20k miles though :cry:

[JacksonRally]

We'll see what they say...shes going to the dealer in a few hours. I know there gonna be like what the F, but the motor is 100% stock and still under warranty!

[UP2MTNS]

That sucks but I know you were planning an upgrade anyways right? :machinegunleft:

My car is only 1 year old with 20k miles though :cry:

ack, yeah that's bad.

the sand/dirt in the compressor messing it up is an interesting theory. My turbo definitely ran worse after laughlin. I have that CAI, and remember my wheel well liner was missing for that race? oops....

I need to take my maf off and clean it soon...I'm getting really crappy MPG's lately too.

[UP2MTNS]

We'll see what they say...shes going to the dealer in a few hours. I know there gonna be like what the F, but the motor is 100% stock and still under warranty!

i wanna be a fly on the wall when you leave the dealer.....

'dude, did you see the tires on that guys car?'


LOL

[409industries]

Maybe I could send an oil sample out for analysis.

I was going to ask if you've sent any oil to Blackstone Labs for analysis. It would be a good idea to make sure that if the turbo is dead that it didnt shoot a ton of shavings into your motor and cause any damage in there.

EDIT: damn, i just read you recently changed your oil. might not show up on the analysis.

[Akagi_Redsuns88]

same thing happened when I blew a speed sensor (the one on the top of the tranny) it turns out that when the car loses a sensor of any type it has a **** fit and goes into whats know as a limp mode... 5lbs, wont rev higher than 5000 without bogging... might be your maf tho... who knows good luck

[lminette]

Hey Kyle check this out!!

http://www.rs25.com/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=18949

[UP2MTNS]

or this:
http://forums.cobbtuning.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38079

I'd pick a 16g over a vf39.

[lminette]

Hmmm $300 or $1775?

[409industries]

Hmmm $300 or $1775?

Hes got a point there... ya know?

I rode in my buddies 20g STi swapped L wagon. holy F that thing is fast.

[lminette]

I'm sure he does!! I was just lookin at the cost factor and which would be the easiest. I think the VF39 would be less involved! Plus I like to stir things up!!

[UP2MTNS]

Hes got a point there... ya know?



but its not just as easy as throwing in a $300 turbo. with a vf 39 he'd want (or should) upgrade to a bigger top mount.

He'll need sti pinks....wait...maybe not, which WRX injectors do you have?

I'd buy the intake off you if you didn't want it :)

I guess you could get a cobb off the shelf map for the vf 39 for free.....but the PDX maps are worth $150 alone.

so yeah, maybe a bit out of your price range, but if you could talk him down to $1500 shipped, that would be a good deal. And I'll give you $100 for the intake setup :D

[JacksonRally]

Ha ha you guys are funny. Stir it up!! But yea the vf 39 is more in my budget and really low key.

[JacksonRally]

Hey Kyle check this out!!

http://www.rs25.com/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=18949

Thats what I'm talking about! Thanks!

[odi]

I had a supercharged 5.0 Mustang that ate some charger metal. When I fixed the charger it ran fine. Yeah it is not good for a motor to eat metal, but I was suprised what a motor can eat and still run great. When I got a new charger it came full of aluminum shavings from the machine shop debri. Aftermarket = gay.

[UP2MTNS]

Ha ha you guys are funny. Stir it up!! But yea the vf 39 is more in my budget and really low key.

hehe.....'go big', that's my motto.

I get it from this guy over at cobb forums....his thing is, if you think you need X turbo, actually get X + 1.

looking at a vf39? get a 16g....looking at a 16g? get a 20g. looking at a 20g? get an FPRed (or FPgreen).....looking at one of those? go rotated. Looking at Rotated? go twin scroll....


mmmmm.....twin scroll..........<drool>

[JacksonRally]

Well I took her into the dealer :lol:

Me: "yeah motor is stock"
Service: "are you sure?"
Me: "yup, there are many other modified things but the motor is stock, I
wanted the reliability"
Service: *guy walks out to look at car* "YEP I'd say its modified, you
sure the motor is stock?"


That was fun!

Well I guess I'll just be waiting for the phone call now. :jack:

[JacksonRally]

Oh yeah I went in there rockin my DI Hoodie!!

[RALLYxISH728]

Hopefully everything works out bro

[UP2MTNS]

Well I took her into the dealer :lol:

Me: "yeah motor is stock"
Service: "are you sure?"
Me: "yup, there are many other modified things but the motor is stock, I
wanted the reliability"
Service: *guy walks out to look at car* "YEP I'd say its modified, you
sure the motor is stock?"


That was fun!

Well I guess I'll just be waiting for the phone call now. :jack:

saw that coming. I bet they're just all standing around your car wondering how you got the tires on there.

[lminette]

Fingers crossed for ya!!!

[Galen]

saw that coming. I bet they're just all standing around your car wondering how you got the tires on there.

So am I! :D well, I hope they don't try to screw you at the stealership. from the sound of it, you shouldn't have any problems.

[sebhockey]

hehe.....'go big', that's my motto.

I get it from this guy over at cobb forums....his thing is, if you think you need X turbo, actually get X + 1.

looking at a vf39? get a 16g....looking at a 16g? get a 20g. looking at a 20g? get an FPRed (or FPgreen).....looking at one of those? go rotated. Looking at Rotated? go twin scroll....


mmmmm.....twin scroll..........<drool>

Jon, you're going to end up with a turbo that spools up way too high....:eek:

[409industries]

Im pulling for you too Kyle. Its not that bad though. I took my car to the stealership to get my weird shakeyness problem diagnosed and they didn't give me any **** for my mods / catless exhaust / etc... so cross your fingers!

mmmm FP green. i love that turbo. Rotated is out, i want to keep my TBE

[JacksonRally]

Well I heard from the dealer this morning and of course they say they could'nt find anything. So I kept my cool and offered to go down there and take a ride with the tech. I went down there and for a ride and he was like "oh well it did'nt do that this morning. " "This is gonna take some time to figure out, cause there is no CEL. Hope you don't need your car soon." All I could say was sweet!! Just fix it. So I bet I don't hear anything until next week...The saga continues.

[Galen]

Well at least you got them to work on it. and the price is right!

[lminette]

Sweet!!! Good job Kyle!!

[409industries]

"didnt do that this morning"

What did they just have it sit there idling or did they actually drive it?

[rollo]

"didnt do that this morning"

What did they just have it sit there idling or did they actually drive it?

My thoughts exactly. Probably just revved it. Maybe they were scared to drive it. It's kinda scary looking :D

Mega kudos to that dealer though, man.. I mean they could so easily not honour the warranty via the "non-standard use/abuse" loophole.. I mean it's pretty plain that this car has seen the dirt a couple of times..

On the other hand I am slightly dismayed that a mechanic should be so reliant on the presence or absence of a CEL.. I mean, c'mon.

[lminette]

Did you take it to Timmons???

[JacksonRally]

Did you take it to Timmons???

Yep. Only cause I did'nt want to drive to far.
The tech claimed he did'nt drive it this morning but someone else did, then said wow it did'nt do that this morning while driving it??? Either way he was polite and said somethings not right. Plus I told him I had it hooked up to a laptop and my buddy and I found out its only pushing 5psi max instead of 10 and he said well that definetly not right....so we'll see. For some reason he said if it rains tomorrow he's not gonn work on it?? Whatever he seemed pretty determined to figure it out :headbang:

Now on another note my bros car is also at the dealer. Something about 4th gear??? Anyways I guess they called him and said they could'nt duplicate the "grinding going into 4th" and my bro said you have to drive it hard, then the guy admitted that he was scared of the car cause it has more pull than any other STI he's driven :headbang:Awesome!


Uh...wish us luck

[lminette]

Nice!! Yeah cause most people who mod their **** are scared to go to the dealer!!

[lminette]

Oh and good luck to you both!!!

[sebhockey]

Good luck to you both dude, you guys will prolly be sitting in the shop for a while

[I Like It Sideways]

Its awesome to hear that they are going to look deeper into it. Keep on keepin' on!

[subyspawn]

Sounds like it's time to pull the turbo and check that baby out. Just steal the one out of your bro's car and see if you're good. He will never notice. :muhaha:


wtf!! ahhahaha

:machinegunleft:

[sebhockey]

wtf!! ahhahaha

:machinegunleft:


What, yours is right there for the picking and you'd never notice. :muhaha:

[worldrallyblue]

Now on another note my bros car is also at the dealer. Something about 4th gear??? Anyways I guess they called him and said they could'nt duplicate the "grinding going into 4th" and my bro said you have to drive it hard, then the guy admitted that he was scared of the car cause it has more pull than any other STI he's driven :headbang:Awesome!

Fantastic!!!

I am glad to read that they are doing something for you guys though. Keep us posted guys.

-Albert

[JacksonRally]

Uh, its monday and no word sense last thursday...

[rollo]

Time to call and ask what's up I think. Sometimes they need prodding :D

[JacksonRally]

Time to call and ask what's up I think. Sometimes they need prodding :D


Yeah your probably correct. Give them a little nudge. My bet is they have'nt touched it....

[JacksonRally]

Arggh, they have no F'n idea. "Well to be honest theres no fault code, so its really throwing us off". So they said they need another day.

*warm fuzzy feeling goes away*

[worldrallyblue]

Damnit. Still keeping fingers crossed for you Kyle.

[lorenkb]

Since when do you need a fault code to attempt to figure out what is wrong?

Step 1: No boost over 5 PSI... maybe we should check the turbo and turbo related items?
Step 2: OMG no fault code we is teh confused?! I needz Halp!
Step 3: Anyone up for lunch? I'm thinking maybe some chinese fast-food.

I'm sure they'll figure it out eventually.

[JacksonRally]

Damnit. Still keeping fingers crossed for you Kyle.


Well....did you fire yours up Albert?

[worldrallyblue]

Yes sir... first try starting it up it started beautifully :) It made me sick thinking about the idea of putting everything back together only to find out it still wouldnt run.

I actually think it pulls alot better now too. Unfortunately, I dont think I will be seeing much dirt action for a few months till I get my other block taken apart and rebuilt. So I might be hitting the sidelines at the first event next year.

-Albert

P.S. Loren Where have you been?? I havent seen a post of yours on here for a week or so now.

[rollo]

Since when do you need a fault code to attempt to figure out what is wrong?

Step 1: No boost over 5 PSI... maybe we should check the turbo and turbo related items?
Step 2: OMG no fault code we is teh confused?! I needz Halp!
Step 3: Anyone up for lunch? I'm thinking maybe some chinese fast-food.

I'm sure they'll figure it out eventually.

LOL!

I'd love to see their faces if someone brought in a GL or a Brat for them to fix. Ya think they'd just stand around staring blankly at it?

Nah I don't buy it, these guys are surely better than that. Time-consuming warranty work isn't profitable.. and proper mechanical diagnostic work is time-consuming as I'm sure most of us know. The stuff where they mark down an hour for screwing the gas cap on tighter is a lot better for the dealer. Logical business.. go for the highest profit margins (or the least loss). They're probably just waiting for you to get tired of them and go get it back... and they know that you can't press too much cos they could pretty easily just say "yeah you abused it, sorry".

Now if only we knew someone who worked for a dealership and could give you the inside scoop on how these things get done? Hmm.. anyone know anyone like that? ;-)

[lorenkb]

Yeah Phil, I agree. The book hours for something like this has to be a total ripoff for the techs. Oh well... the great game of getting service from a dealership.

Ahoy Albert! I've been lurking... work has had me travelling back and forth from Ridgecrest for a while now. Glad to hear the new block started right up!

[409industries]

LOL!
Now if only we knew someone who worked for a dealership and could give you the inside scoop on how these things get done? Hmm.. anyone know anyone like that? ;-)

wheres westy at?

[rollo]

wheres westy at?

Oh yeah.. but I was thinking Jack might chime in actually..

[WRR]

ok.. but don't let too many people know where I work because it could cause me to loose the two friends that I have left :-(



:mrgreen: aww.. screw it - let em' all know

**flamesuit on and zipped up tight**

anyway -
1st) the 'inside' answer is yes, no CEL light and mosta the current technician crowd stands around with their thumbs up their a$$es - sadly... you basically need to find a dealership with an old skool tech (typically meaning 30 years old plus, & it is more "state of mind" then age driven but generally speaking a 50 year old tech who did pre-delivery inspections on BRATs in 82' probably knows his stuff and more importantly CARES about doing a good job and not being beaten by a mechanical machine) Chris Tusow was our guy and he was young but a tech genius (he is working on Tanner's rally team now so good for him)

2nd) warranty does not pay techs very well to try to find a problem (like if there is no CEL or obvious fluid pouring out somewhere) and most techs are kinda selfish in that one more cool looking WRX wagon does nothing for them if they can't make a decent day's wages out of it.. again, sad but true

3rd) I've said this a few times but I'll repeat it -
there are mod friendly dealerships (which means thay have not been audited by SOA - Subaru of America - in the last 12 months or so) and there are the other 90% of dealerships that have been audited, have had SOA take 10 or 20 thousand dollars back from them on what they have determined to be 'vehicles not under warranty' or 'jobs not completed exactly as suggested' for one reason or another.. once a service manager has sat in front of a dealership owner and explained why we are writing a check for $20,000 dollars to the factory then I can assure you, he won't be explaining it again...all of a sudden a mod-friendly dealership is not so mod-friendly :-(


reality check
a) do some dealerships screw people - yes (sad... but still true although there are a lot that really do try to do the right thing & be fair)
b) does everyone assume that the dealership is making thousands of dollars on every car deal - yes (not true - hundreds maybe)
c) do some dealership techs not give a $hit - yes (in fact many)
d) are there still some real good guys out there who can actually find problems and want to find them - yes
e) are the manufacturers unfair to dealers - yes (not all but most to some degree)
f) is is still kinda a fun place to come and work everyday - yes, and you can still make a decent living if you stick it out, don't mind long hours and don't mind getting beaten up regularly by the general public, your boss, family members... & actually - pretty much anyone you might come in contact with :)


and my suggestion always goes like this:
clean the car up inside & out (it helps, believe me)
if your having wierd issues then pull all the simple mods off it even if they would never affect the problem
be respectful but persistant
ask to sit down with the service manager but continue being respectful and persistant
being a woman probably helps your case (sad.. but come on guys - lets be real - and I don't know how you can pull this one off Kyle)
lastly - as to speak to the factory service rep. (usually comes by the dealership one or twice a month)
always go back to being respectful but persistant

remember - one of two people is paying the dealership for the repair on your car... the factory (through warranty) or you (the customer).. most dealerships and service people don't really care who is paying except for the tech because the factory pays them about half what the job is worth.



the don'ts
it does not matter to someone in service how much you spent on your car - a RS and a STi are really pretty much the same thing to them
it really does not help to say 'I will never buy another Subaru again'...
blowing up and calling everyone asshats does not help
saying 'I am going to contact Subaru' does not usually help - many times they are probably the ones who said 'no' to begin with

fine print - any opinions expressed by me are mine and do not represent my employer - if you disagree then that is wonderful and that is what makes this country of ours great.. feel free let me know -

[JacksonRally]

Thanks Jack and I agree with what you have to say. I am definetly being polite. I'm still confused as to why they even agreed to look at it. When I originally sat with the service manager I told him pretty much everything and the reason the motor was left alone was cause I wanted the reliability and warranty. I had no problem with stock horsepower. I don't think this is one of those dealers that have the 30+ years exper. tech. Either way I really want to KNOW whats wrong with it. Even if they don't fix it I can do the research and buy and install new parts myself. From this point what would you recommend? I'm thinking if they still have no idea tomorrow I may as well pick it up. ???

[rollo]

Awesome post Jack. Very cool to know why they do what they do.

So before they do warranty work it has to be approved by the manufacturer? Or they submit the warranty work records as part of the audit?

It is kinda irritating that they'd take it in if they had no intention of even trying to fix it though.

[WRR]

I think they have intentions of fixing it if they took it in/wrote it up/took time to discuss stuff with you...

I would stay on them and explain that this is your daily driver so you kinda need an answer soon - & I suggest communicating directly with the service mgr especially since you have already met with him and he knows who you are.


yes, many times for bigger jobs the factory (just through the local service rep.) has to give approval (again, they are paying the bill so they want the chance to see the damage) - but then again - many times they are too busy to come by so if they know that the dealership historically has not tried to cheat them then they will give a verbal ok over the phone... or if the repair is not major then the dealership has the auth. to just make the repair -
and the factory monitors warranty expenses weekly and if you repaired 30 WRXes last week under warranty and the repair bill was $50K (or $1666 per car) and the national average is $342 per car for the WRX then you are going to get a visit from someone to 'help' you get back on track... which means getting your warranty costs back to within a certain percentage of normal.

in the end, it is all about money :jack:

[Galen]

in the end, it is all about money :jack:

isn't it always :shootsself:

[JacksonRally]

I called again just after noon. The service manager said the tech worked on it for a few hours this morning but needed to work on other cars today and would continue to work on it this afternoon and for me to call back. Now by working on it he means they are still trying to figure out whats wrong with it. He said "we think its some kinda boost issue but all the hoses look like there hooked up" Well I coulda told him that...Of course every call is courtious and I say thanks just keep me posted...Ill call back in a few hours.

But seriously what do I do next? I'm doubtfull they are going to be able to fix it.

[WRR]

do you serously think they will just give up - that would be lame!! I can see them saying 'nope, 38 inch Super Swampers canceled your warranty" but I don't get them just handing it back saying - 'sorry sir, we are baffled'

stay on them -


& let me know

[JacksonRally]

Your the man!! I will stay on it. I'm gonna call tonite (open till 8 pm) and see what happens. I am pleased at the fact they are still looking into it.

Theres no way that after all this they say they cannot warranty it and slap me with some insane bill for the hours spent to look into the problem?

Thanks for the info Jack!!

[UP2MTNS]

i forget if you swapped out with a healthy maf or not, did that work?.....I just re-read your first post and it sounds like your MAF. Highly doubt its the turbo itself. MAF issues don't always throw codes.

[JacksonRally]

O no I did'nt get to swap it out before taking it to the dealer. I wonder if they checked it?

[WRR]

call em.. tell then a friend with the same year car had a similar problem and it turned out to be the MAF.... can't hurt :)

[rollo]

i forget if you swapped out with a healthy maf or not, did that work?.....I just re-read your first post and it sounds like your MAF. Highly doubt its the turbo itself. MAF issues don't always throw codes.

MAF issues don't put silver paste into the IC and TB either. And personally I'd expect a code from a MAF issue, it's one of the most OBD-monitored parts of the car. Think of it this way.. if it was a MAF sensor prob, the poor running would be because of limp mode. The only way the car would be in limp mode was if the ECU did so because it sensed a problem, and if that happened it would surely throw a code?

I'm just sayin'... if it is the MAF then awesome, that's a lot cheaper than a turbo..

[JacksonRally]

Well the factory rep. is involved. I guess he's saying theres never been a problem like this before. I am supposed to call back this afternoon cause the tech was going to call the Subaru Tech Line one more time...??? So pretty much they still don't know. I will call in a few hours and keep you all posted.

[UP2MTNS]

MAF issues don't put silver paste into the IC and TB either. And personally I'd expect a code from a MAF issue, it's one of the most OBD-monitored parts of the car. Think of it this way.. if it was a MAF sensor prob, the poor running would be because of limp mode. The only way the car would be in limp mode was if the ECU did so because it sensed a problem, and if that happened it would surely throw a code?

I'm just sayin'... if it is the MAF then awesome, that's a lot cheaper than a turbo..

well, the paste is...well, that's just messed up, haha.

I just suggested it because a local buddy over on cobb forums had similar issues....he even did a lot of data logging and was getting messed up AFRs and slight detonation, but never got a CEL. turned out the MAF was messed up and the voltages were messed up, but it was intermittent, so it never threw a code.

EDIT:
found it...a bit technical, but here it is, fwiw.
http://forums.cobbtuning.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31242&page=3

[JacksonRally]

Well got some news today. They are replacing the turbo. Should be in on friday. But in the same breathe the service manager said, "then we'll go from there." He keeps saying its a boost issue and they are gonna just replace the turbo. I'll see what happens friday!!

[WRR]

well... I'd look at the positive side so far - worst case you get a new stock turbo with no paste!!

they seem a little slow outta the gate but at least they are moving now - step #2 will be interesting

[overtheover]

nu turbo is never bad lol, hopefully thats all it is

[RS-ti_Andy]

well... I'd look at the positive side so far - worst case you get a new stock turbo with no paste!!

they seem a little slow outta the gate but at least they are moving now - step #2 will be interesting


yeah and there is a stock turbo for sale in the for sale topic! just a note

[UP2MTNS]

Well got some news today. They are replacing the turbo. Should be in on friday. But in the same breathe the service manager said, "then we'll go from there." He keeps saying its a boost issue and they are gonna just replace the turbo. I'll see what happens friday!!

on warranty? meaning....FREE?

[JacksonRally]

*twirling thumbs, waits patiently for friday* 8)

[worldrallyblue]

thats fantastic kyle!!

[sebhockey]

At least someone is having luck with warranty stuff. Hopefully the new turbo fixes it.

[JacksonRally]

Is it friday yet?....dang!

[sebhockey]

Is it friday yet?....dang!

almost

[RS-ti_Andy]

1 hour and 12 minutes till friday here! lol

10:48pm here

[JacksonRally]

"Umm yeah were gonna need you to come back on monday, mmkay"

They did not get the new turbo in yet, so possibly monday...

[worldrallyblue]

Damn three more days. Still hoping everything is going to go well. Hey Kyle hows keiths STi doing??

[JacksonRally]

Well now its Tuesday...I called yesterday and they had the turbo in the shop but not in the car...I'll call them this afternoon.

[JacksonRally]

Damn three more days. Still hoping everything is going to go well. Hey Kyle hows keiths STi doing??

Oh Keith took his car home cause the dealer needed someone "special" to drive it and determine if the issues will be warrantied. So he's waiting for a call that the guy will be at the dealer so they can meet up......????

[UP2MTNS]

I call shenanigans.

Find a reputable tuner and take it to them....pay'm to diagnose it properly, then take it back to the dealer ship and tell them what's wrong.

[JacksonRally]

I call shenanigans.

Find a reputable tuner and take it to them....pay'm to diagnose it properly, then take it back to the dealer ship and tell them what's wrong.

Yeah when I took my car in I told them that I already figured out that there was only 5psi boost. Took them another week and a half to confirm and order a new turbo??? I really hope its fixed today :pissed:

[WRR]

yeah... :oops:





this kinda stuff is a little embarassing for anyone even remotely connected to the dealership world... certainly sounds like they don't have a clue ???

[JacksonRally]

I tried calling today at 2:20 and got no call back for an hour so I went down there...The service manager was very cool and offered me a rental and said the car will be done tonite but they want to keep it till tomorrow to road test and make sure the problem is resolved. I said no problem and I did'nt need a rental so I turned that down. He was really sorry for the long time its been taking them to figure this out. Plus they are still only 90% sure that this is going to fix the problem. So they want to make sure its fixed!! Plus I double checked that every thing is going to be covered under the warranty and everything is a go!! Thank God I left the motor stock.

[409industries]

that was cool they offered a rental at least. Stoked all this is under warranty for ya. I just hope they get it all sorted out soon.

[sebhockey]

Looking good for you.

[JacksonRally]

I got my car...new turbo and not very happy. I really don't feal like getting started right now but I'm not happy. The new turbo is a little better but something is still wrong. The tech feels the car is fine. So I'm supposed to meet with the factory rep. after the first of the year. In the mean time my buddy is coming by and we are going to check the boost again (still very sluggish) and put on his intercooler cause mine could be very clogged from oil blow-by and metal bits flying off the old turbo. I'm gonna go from there. I woulda thought they would have looked at the intercooler sinse the turbo was jacked but I got the feeling they just wanted the car out. The tech was pissed at me when I said something is still not right. Oh well I will figure something out. Plus the engine bay has oil all over the place??? Even on the battery??? Somehow they splashed it all over and didn't even wipe it up. WTF

[wolfman79]

That sucks man. I would make sure to get some pictures of the oil all over the engine bay and also of the intercooler. Might give a little more leverage with the rep.

[UP2MTNS]

swap out the MAF first, its easier....that's where I have my money.

[rollo]

What boost is it reading now?

[Galen]

That sucks man. I would make sure to get some pictures of the oil all over the engine bay and also of the intercooler. Might give a little more leverage with the rep.

+1 man, a picture is worth a 1000 words.

[odi]

I've been reading this thread and I just wanted to say that I feel for ya.

It seems you could prob. figure it out faster than dealing w/ the dealer. If you got a buddy's car to swap things one by one and try that will help.

Good luck

[lorenkb]

I got my car...new turbo and not very happy. I really don't feal like getting started right now but I'm not happy. The new turbo is a little better but something is still wrong. The tech feels the car is fine. So I'm supposed to meet with the factory rep. after the first of the year. In the mean time my buddy is coming by and we are going to check the boost again (still very sluggish) and put on his intercooler cause mine could be very clogged from oil blow-by and metal bits flying off the old turbo. I'm gonna go from there. I woulda thought they would have looked at the intercooler sinse the turbo was jacked but I got the feeling they just wanted the car out. The tech was pissed at me when I said something is still not right. Oh well I will figure something out. Plus the engine bay has oil all over the place??? Even on the battery??? Somehow they splashed it all over and didn't even wipe it up. WTF

Have you cleaned your MAF sensor yet? I'd do that just to make sure... my car fet very sluggish when my MAF sensor was coated in dust (felt like no boost).

[lminette]

Good to hear you at least got a new turbo, but it sucks that it isn't 100% fixed. Is it any better at all? Maybe the turbo has to break in. Hopefully you'll figure something out after swapping some parts with your bud!

[JacksonRally]

Its fixed!!!!!!!

Last night my buddy came by to help me look things over. He brought his Accessport to check boost and for some reason decided to bring his stock 06' intercooler (he has aftermarket on his car) so I took him for a ride cause he rode in it before I took it to the dealer. He noticed exactly what I noticed, it was alittle better (new turbo helped) but something was not right. Seemed like the intake was being choked. So we park it and he suggests we put on his stock intercooler. Intercooler is on and we hook up the Accessport and go for a drive. Immiediate difference. The car is back! I do some runs and and hitting 12.5psi max boost!!!! So we look closer at my intercooler and it looked clean on the outlet to the t/b, so I removed the y pipe and it was completly clogged and filthy. There was virtually no air getting through the intercooler. So I think I figured out the chain of events. Laughlin car eats dust/dirt....turbo gets destroyed....bits of metal from bad turbo mixed with oil blowby makes paste....3 weeks after Laughlin of making paste intercooler gets clogged.....car goes to dealer..........new turbo.....clean intercooler......its all good. I am going to do an oil change tonite and not take my car in the dirt until I make a new intake that won't get full of dirt.

I also called the dealer and told them this and they just said yeah the turbo was definetly bad. I told them not to worry about making an appointment with the rep.


THE END

Thanks all for your help!!!

[IneedRS]

Yay!
Now you can get rockin again!

[Galen]

WOOOHOOO, YOU WIN! great to hear that you got it fixed!

[WRR]

nice!! those genius level techs saved the day....








oh.... ok - well then I guess they just gave you a free new turbo and kept you from fixing your car for a couple of days..... but call the parts mgr. and tell him that if the factory does not request the old turbo back that you would like it to do some 'testing'... there is a chance (a little bit remote but...) that Subaru won't ask for it and the parts guys will just be scrapping it anyway... if he is cool and has no use for it then he might offer it up to you..


anyway - glad to hear you are rolling again!

[odi]

Time to go drive it :eek:. After you re-engineer the intake. I'm happy for you.

[UP2MTNS]

Nice! I'm glad no one took me up on my MAF wager ;)

[drt suby]

very nice

[wolfman79]

Good deal.

[sebhockey]

congrats, now get back to wreaking havoc on that thing

[lminette]

Nice!!! Good to hear that you are back in action!!! We should definitely have a snow meet now!! I think that Aaron and I are headin up to do some boardin on sunday, anyone else game?

[JacksonRally]

Nice!!! Good to hear that you are back in action!!! We should definitely have a snow meet now!! I think that Aaron and I are headin up to do some boardin on sunday, anyone else game?

Aint my bro and Paul going with...thats the last I heard. I would go but I got a bum knee

[lminette]

Sucks to hear Kyle!! I hadn't heard about you bro and Kyle. Maybe we should start a thread in the So Cal section. DI Army Invades Bear Mountain!!!!

[WRR]

this Sunday like the 30th?.. if so maybe me & my son will come up - I wonder how bad my board was when I put it away last year :oops:


opps I mean like the 23rd?

[409industries]

SO STOKED everythings fixed Kyle!!!

I out for the snowboarding this weekend, my pass is blacked out for the holiday season, but ill definitely go up the following weekend.

[litre]

SO STOKED everythings fixed Kyle!!!

I out for the snowboarding this weekend, my pass is blacked out for the holiday season, but ill definitely go up the following weekend.
dam. I just read nine pages of that lol. glad its fixed though. making me want to keep the franken motor instead of swapping to a ej20. turbos r just too much for n00bs like me

[subyspawn]

THE END

Thanks all for your help!!!


:eek::eek::headbang::eek::eek::headbang::headbang: :headbang::eek::eek::eek:

[rollo]

I'm still waiting for SoA to call me up to diagnose stuff over the internet for them :tongue: :lol2:

[overtheover]

yay!
fix0red!
winn4r!
lol!:lol: