ice racers help me out!

[bulldog8567]

So i'm planning to do some lake ice racing coming this February and need some advice for my STi.

This is what i had in mind
17" rota/or other cheap wheels (need to clear brembos and i'm not willing to swap them...this is just for fun, not competitive yet)
Hard very blocky tires (need advice on exactly which ones) running 205/50 or 55 profile
Ice racing screws impacted from the inside out with an inside and outside washer and nut on the outside. I'm thinking 1" bolts/screws at 300 per tire.

I guess i'll also need advice on tire pressure as the tires will be inflated and then sealed with tire slime that will plug the valve up if i try to deflate them. I'm thinking about 22psi.

Please help me anyone. Also if i use bolts i'm sure there is a specific pattern that should be used as well as cutting them at specific angles for braking/accelerating.
If anyone has done something like this or knows someone who has please let me know.
Also if anyone is a pro at this kind of thing I'd be more than willing to pay a very good price for your labor.

[wolfman79]

See my second post, it was early and I wasn't fully awake.

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[carl]

sniper1rfa made some bolt tires with very good success. I believe he used elevator bolts

[bulldog8567]

elevator bolts is what i heard as well. I know 15" tires would be better.

So would anyone suggest buying the best studdable winter tires i can find and just throw some longer than normal studs in there?

I don't think this would be even close to the best setup possible but it might be good enough.

[wolfman79]

What type of ice racing are you going to be doing? What kind of ice is it? Yes there are different types of ice. What are the rules from the sanctioning body? What level of involvement/investment are you making?

Bolted tires are a huge commitment and take time to learn to drive on. They also take many hours to properly prepare a set. Our club won't allow anyone to run bolts their first season let alone their first race.

For 17" tires if you are going to run studs then these are the ticket WWW.brunowessel.com, rally studs, 16mm or 19mm. But again depending on what type of racing and the ice itself you could be very competitive on bare rubber.

As for tire pressure it really will depend on your tires. Studless snow/ice tires do well at street settings or slightly higher, studded snows again are street pressure or slightly lower, all seasons generally are best in the 20-25 psi range. Those are just generic starting points as your individual tire choice, weather conditions and the ice itself all play a role in optimal pressure.
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[bulldog8567]

I'm really just going out their just to have fun. It's a frozen lake so their will be some snow on the ice.

Freshwater not salt if that helps lol!

I'll be doing a 1/2 day of "school" where we learn how to handle our cars better on ice, and then they have solo events where only 1 car goes at a time, and after that I can just go rip around and have fun in a huge open area.

I just want the proper tires that allows me to have as much fun as possible (i'd like to do some high speed drifting).
I just bought some hakka R's brand new about a month ago and they will not provide me with enough traction, I already know that.


I'm guessing I should be looking specifically at "Rally Studs" on that website you provided?
Are lets say Hakka 5's (studdable) good enough to use or are these studs going to rip out b/c the tire is too soft?


By the way the rules by the sanctioning body are I need to pay my registration for the event and bring a helmet. We are allowed any type of car/truck with any type of tires we want to bring.

[wolfman79]

Hakka 5's would be just fine, I'd stay with a 16mm stud or even a 12. The 19's are super aggressive and are only good for race purposes. Unless you are intending to only use them for that day.

Am curious why you feel the Hakka Rs won't give you enough traction? We run a bare rubber class in our series and have plenty of fun with those. I'd advise that if you're just going out to have fun and learn then just run the tires you already have.

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[bulldog8567]

The Hakka R's don't have enough traction for me when i'm in parking lots that are icy so I'm assuming that they won't be good enough on a frozen lake. They're amazing through snow but that's not what i'm looking for.

I'll probably end up buying Hakka 5's and decide between 12 and 16mm. I've always wanted 2 winter sets anyway.

What would be the pros/cons of choosing one size stud over the other?
Will any regular tire shop stud gun work to install the rally studs?
I should also mention that the condition of the ice will most likely not be slushy at all. It will probably be -20C or colder at that time.


By the way thanks for all your advice!

[wolfman79]

How many miles do you have on the Rs? It can take up to 1000 miles for the release agent to fully wear off the tread blocks. Also what tire pressure have you been running? Tires with heavy siping work best with higher pressures, otherwise the tread blocks themselves will flex rather than allowing the sipes to open up. Another thing is that they will exert maximum grip at 35-40% slippage.

Lake ice is great, it's like a weird cross between dirt and tarmac. It is both variable and unforgiving, the line that worked great on one run will often times be all wrong the next. And trying to recover from a mistake can often times prove futile.

With temperatures significantly below freezing you'll find that your tires will probably get colder and your pressure will drop; so it's usually a good idea to start with pressures higher than you're targeting. You can always air down if needed, airing up takes longer, your fingers and toes will be happier for it.

Most pneumatic stud guns should work just fine with the rally studs. The 16mm would be about as aggressive as I'd go without considering it to be a single purpose racing tire. Even then the 12mm would be a better choice as it is still relatively aggressive but tolerable on the road. The studded sets that we run are race only, the only time they see a road is for the occasional run to the gas station for coffee, restroom break when the port-o-lets are out of service, or to refill our air tank. They are very noisy and the car feels noticeably squirrely on anything less than pure ice.

No problem with the advice, this is what we live for every year. Rallycross and playing in the dirt is just R&D time for us. Ice is for Racing, dirt roads are just to get there.!

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[409industries]

I would assume that you could use any wheel you wanted because ice racing isn't impact abusive on rims. I've got a set of 17" Rota Slipstreams that i've used on my STi for all kinds of off-road duty (they clear the Brembos just fine). They hold up good even on rough stuff, and would be plenty strong for ice racing. They're inexpensive too... much less than a second set of BBS's.

[bulldog8567]

I have maybe 600 miles on the tires but I'm still running a much too stiff suspension (TiC SST 7/5k rates) which i'm sure the rates are killing a lot of my traction to begin with.

I have ohlins fps sitting in my garage and some RCE Black springs but I think i'm going to sell those and get some dspecs with stock STi springs.

Tire pressure is at 34psi but i could bump it up a little bit.

If need be i could use a new set of tires/wheels as a race only purpose tire/studs. I have no problems with that and would only brake in the studs/new tires before going out on the lake.
They also make a 13mm rally specific stud so that may be a good option for me as well. But I guess the more aggressive i go the larger the chance of a rollover.

Would you recommend any other studdable tires to use? I am essentially looking for the best tire and cost is not really a factor.

Next winter I'll be running my R's again for daily driving, Hakka 7's studded for some very aggressive driving, and a 3rd set of racing specific tires.

[bulldog8567]

Oh and i should mention I can fit for sure a 215/60/17 tire on my STi. I'm running 215/55 and there is considerable room to spare.

Although even with the profile i'm currently running i miss the shorter gearing of the stock profile.

I'm guessing i should purchase 205's for my next set or if i'm going studded should i just stick with the most contact surface i can get. I guess it all depends on how much snow i'll be going through.

[wolfman79]

Soft definitely helps on the ice, we're running stock wagon springs on GR2s this season with the sway bars off. Preliminary testing looks very promising :)

If you have time I'd recommend trying both studs and bare rubber on the ice. They offer unique experiences and can be good teaching mechanisms for better car control on the street in inclement weather conditions.

For tire choice I'm a little biased now and have been quite happy with the Hankooks we're running, I-Pike for studs and Ice Bears for bare rubber. In the past we have run the General Altimax Arctics, Nokian Hakka 4s, Blizzak LM25s, Dunlop Wintersport 3D and Winterforces. I've had good experiences with all but each has a slightly different personality and thus I've yet to find the perfect tire.

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[bulldog8567]

I could definitely try 2 sets of tires and I also disconnected my larger cobb sways a few weeks ago and that helped a lot as well.

I actually know a guy selling some GR2's with stock STi springs and spacers for the rear top hats so that's also an option for me.


I think i'll probably end up ordering some 13mm rally studs...do you still recommend a narrow tire for my application if it's main purpose is ice grip?

http://www.brunowessel.com/catalog/index.asp?display=item&itemid=3

[wolfman79]

A narrower tire helps maximize your traction by concentrating weight in a smaller contact patch.

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[bulldog8567]

so the heavier weight per inch outweighs the larger surface area of contact between the tire/studs and road...interesting. I've always been under the assumption that i'd go skinny to cut through heavy snow and wider to get more traction on ice.

But it does make sense (of course up to a point where you go too narrow)

[bulldog8567]

also is there any huge advantage of running higher profile tires if i'm not going to be putting studs/screws through the tire anymore?

I'd like to get my gearing a little faster than what it's currently at...or is there nobody who ice races that runs a lower profile tire.

[wolfman79]

When it comes to tire sizing for ice think along the lines of a gravel tire. The taller sidewall offers better protection against de-beading while also allowing a more forgiving ride. Catch a rut in the ice wrong and your air pressure disappears quickly. We de-beaded once last season running a 225/45/17 and after that it was 16s the rest of the season. This year we are running 15s on 2 of our cars.

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[bulldog8567]

I wish I could run smaller tires and not have to do brake swaps a couple times a year.


The brembos are just too good to let go for me but if I get more hardcore into ice racing than i'll have to do it.

What do you think about the 13mm rally studs?

[wolfman79]

I'm going to guess that the 13mm rally studs will be very similar to the 12mm studs we run. If so you'll enjoy them immensely while on the ice, not so much on dry roads.

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[bulldog8567]

Yeah my tires won't be used on any dry roads so i should be fine.


I've now been looking at Ipikes and they are very affordable. Do you know how many studs each tire takes (just approx for the size you use)?

I'm already getting pretty excited!

[wolfman79]

Mine take 108 per tire in a 205/60 15

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