? about swaybars and offroading

[wr-ecks]

so i picked up some perrin rear sway bar endlinks in a trade i made. originally my plan was to get stiffer sway bars and i figured i could use the endlinks.... im kinda new to the rally/offroading (at speed) thing so go easy on me.
ive been wheelin trucks for years and built quite a few different rigs. (long story short i would go faster and faster through orv trails until i realized wheelin is for anybody who can floor it and rallying is for people with skill. at least thats my opinion) the first thing id do on a stock rig was to pull the sway bars off, this gave it more suspension travel which in turn made it smoother and easier to control when driving fast through stuff cause the susp. would suck it up.
if i put stiffer sway bars on my sti is it gonna be rough when im on dirt/gravel roads and make things a lot harder cause the suspension wont travel as much?? or is it different with more speed? i dont care as much about the added handling on pavement if it makes it worse off road. dont want to spend 500 dollars on sway bars just to decide i dont want them.
thanks to whoever answers my question. :headbang:

[I Like It Sideways]

Did the rigs you were building have solid axles instead of independent suspension?

I would recommend against a stiffer sway bar in the rear. It would help with rotating the car, but like you said, the suspension won't travel as independently. A larger front sway bar might not be the worst idea, but it also might not be the best.
I'm trying to take what I know about RS's and apply it to STi's.... our cars are a little less equipped than yours haha. But what I have heard some say is that the suspension as is on the STi is already set up more than adequate for the occasional backroad drive.

Others on here are more qualified to answer your question I guess is what I'm saying haha

[Rallycat66]

Short version is... Swaybars prevent weight transfer. This is a good thing when you have lots of grip, not such a good thing when the grip decreases. The less grip you have, the more you need the car to throw it's weight around and get what grip it can.

So, you have to ask yourself what sort of surfaces you will be running on. Snow and ice with little or no grip, you completely disconnect the sway bars. Hard packed smooth dirt with lots of grip, you run a stiffer sway bar.

Ideally what you want is a set up that is adjustable and then dial in more or less sway bar depending on the surface conditions and how the car is reacting.

And technically, sway bars don't limit suspension travel. What they do is prevent one side from traveling without the other doing the same. As one side compresses, it transfers that force through the sway bar to the other side and tries to compress it as well.

I'd say just run what you have. When you get good enough that you realize the sway bars could get you a few more seconds per mile, then worry about them.

Tim

[I Like It Sideways]

Sway bars hinder suspension travel, I guess would be a better way to put it. And only while subjecting the car to an uneven load (cornering, bumps, etc).

Good words Tim, I'm going to have to search for posts you've made on other boards as well :)

[wr-ecks]

ok cool. thanks tim. good explanation by the way too. i think i will take your advice and just stick with what i have. im pretty comfortable with how it drives right now off road anyways. yea the stis do very very well offroad to start with.
so maybe ill look into the adj. style when i get around to buying one. that makes a lot of sense.
oh and ive built probably a half dozen toyotas all had straight axles but 2, they had ifs in the front. one of which i converted to the older straight axle style (my first truck). :guitarist:.
so now what the heck am i gonna do with these endlinks. guess ill sell em or something.

[409industries]

Despite driving in the dirt over a full rallycross season, i still dont have a firm understanding how swaybars affect dirt handling. That was a good explanation.

The Project car is going to be a whole different ballgame from the STi im used to driving in the dirt, so im not going to even mess with the swaybars until after I have a good idea how it handles. I can already tell its going to understeer like a bitch though.

[UP2MTNS]

I can already tell its going to understeer like a bitch though.

no sway bar up front, and a rear sway bar will help reduce that understeer.

[I Like It Sideways]

I can already tell its going to understeer like a bitch though.

You'll be surprised, once you upgrade to adjustable struts/coilovers, you'll be able to nearly dial out the understeer.

[UP2MTNS]

You'll be surprised, once you upgrade to adjustable struts/coilovers, you'll be able to nearly dial out the understeer.

agreed...I have a cobb sway bar now, but only for the past few races and honestly, I can't tell much of a different over the stock sway bar. (and I've been told there's supposed to be a big difference between the two).

I'm pretty sure its because my coilover/spring set up compensated just fine on its own. I'm considering pulling my front sway off for rallyX next year (or just disconnecting it), this is what Pete Cowan does, iirc.

[I Like It Sideways]

I installed a wrx fsb (2 or 3mm larger than stock for my RS), and I noticed that it turns in much better. It will understeer, but only if I wussy-foot it around. It is much easier to hold a line as well.

[Drew84]

Wrong on a Subaru you want a front swaybar, as backwards as it sounds. A stiffer front bar will help the car hold the front alignment. With a mchperson strut car in as the suspension is compressed you loose camber from the front wheels, this is most noticable when cornering. Stiffer bar=better alignment better alignment=better handling. My opinon is whether your on loose terrain or pavement if you can hold the camber curve consant your gonna have more grip. Trust me an STi with its smart center Diff will have no trouble steping out the rear on dirt.

[wr-ecks]

if it makes little or no difference off road then screw it. why fix it if it aint broke i always like to say. upgrading to some good coilovers on the other hand i intend to do as soon as i come up with some money.

[UP2MTNS]

Wrong on a Subaru you want a front swaybar, as backwards as it sounds. A stiffer front bar will help the car hold the front alignment. With a mchperson strut car in as the suspension is compressed you loose camber from the front wheels, this is most noticable when cornering. Stiffer bar=better alignment better alignment=better handling. My opinon is whether your on loose terrain or pavement if you can hold the camber curve consant your gonna have more grip. Trust me an STi with its smart center Diff will have no trouble steping out the rear on dirt.

gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you on that one..... ;)

sway bars have little to do with alignment (or holding it in place)...like previously mentioned, they help with reducing weight transfer.

when your suspension is compressed, you get more (negative) camber (which is why you typically need to adjust the camber out if you lower your car too much.).

On a corner, you lose camber because the forces of the car force your suspension out of alignment...a sway bar isn't going to stop that. Obviously more pronounced on the street....for what we do, you're not going to lose that much camber. (I found first hand that buying camber plates and cranking in the camber for races (like they do for autoX) didn't really help me corner any fast or easier.)

The reason you would take your front sway bar off (to get more grip on dirt) is you allow the weight to shift onto that outside tire (instead of keeping the weight more even, which then causes that tire to slide, and now you have understeer).

in the rear, keeping the sway bar (or making it stiffer) has the same effect, opposite result......the back end will come out easier, causing oversteer.

The same effect can be had with adjusting the rate of the coilovers (shocks)....having a higher valve rate will keep your back end more even (like a sway bar) and it'll kick out easier. Couple that with a soft spring set up, and you have a suspension set up that can handle the bumps, but corner like a pro.

[sebhockey]

I prefer my larger rear sway. I noticed the difference immediately off road in being able to induce overstear easier. I may have lost a little in suspension independence, but the gains outweigh the loss.

[greddy]

Last winter I was driving without front sway bar cause I had destroy the link but noticed that the car was more stable and the front get more grip when turn in on tuff road. With the stock sway in the rear the car was easy to put sideway at low speed and even easier at high.
I definitely going to remove the fsb when the GC get ready and probably give a try and remove the rear one since the car gonna get a new more powerful heart:twisted:

[Drew84]

gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you on that one..... ;)

sway bars have little to do with alignment (or holding it in place)...like previously mentioned, they help with reducing weight transfer.

when your suspension is compressed, you get more (negative) camber (which is why you typically need to adjust the camber out if you lower your car too much.).

On a corner, you lose camber because the forces of the car force your suspension out of alignment...a sway bar isn't going to stop that. Obviously more pronounced on the street....for what we do, you're not going to lose that much camber. (I found first hand that buying camber plates and cranking in the camber for races (like they do for autoX) didn't really help me corner any fast or easier.)

The reason you would take your front sway bar off (to get more grip on dirt) is you allow the weight to shift onto that outside tire (instead of keeping the weight more even, which then causes that tire to slide, and now you have understeer).

in the rear, keeping the sway bar (or making it stiffer) has the same effect, opposite result......the back end will come out easier, causing oversteer.

The same effect can be had with adjusting the rate of the coilovers (shocks)....having a higher valve rate will keep your back end more even (like a sway bar) and it'll kick out easier. Couple that with a soft spring set up, and you have a suspension set up that can handle the bumps, but corner like a pro.

You haven't done your research on Suby suspension. This is From Turn In Concepts and It makes sense. Not my words but what I was trying to get across.

As for what size bars to get, and this is my opinion based on experience, and is in consideration of solid bars (that's what I have the most experience with, and it makes for an easier comparison to stock).

For the rear bar - 22mm is good. You can pull off 24mm but the inside tire gets too light, and you lose traction in hard turns if you are on the stock springs. If you are considering going to 24mm or larger then you really really need to consider upgrading your springs first. See, the springs will stiffen not only the ride, but will also increase roll resistance. Now, stiffer springs does not have to mean a crappy ride. If you do your homework, and get a spring that a) doesn't have a stupidly low drop and b) are good for the operating range of your struts then the ride will feel just fine.

For the front - traditional thinking has held that if you want to fix understeer you want the rear to step out more. While this does work to some extent, I feel this is the wrong way to approach it. Sure CONTROLLABLE oversteer with the back stepping out is fun, and a good thing, but the front is still going wide. As part of this traditional thinking folks scream get a bigger rear bar, and leave the front alone or go smaller. I have to disagree on this. Here's why -

First, let's look at the technical reason. The dynamic camber curve for the mcpherson strut setup sucks. It just does. That's a tradeoff of running this type of setup, and all setups have their good and bad points. What happens is this - you enter a turn at speed. Your ourside front corner gets loaded with weight. That weight compresses the suspension. When the suspension compresses the camber of that wheel, where that tire is loaded, rolls toward positive camber. If you're running very little static negative camber this will actually start to make the inside edge of the tire light, reducing the width of your effective contact patch that resists lateral acceleration. This lose of traction results in that "push" or understeer condition. This is why folks who are more into performance run a decent amount of negative front camber. Sure, they give up some straight line accel and decel grip doing this, but that's more than offset by the fact that they can maximize the width of the contact patch in turns to help resist higher slip angles due to lateral acceleration. If you lower the car any with springs or coilovers that camber curve gets worse. Oh, and the added bumpsteer sucks too. Fortunately the fine fellows at 6Gun have figured out a way to help that, but that's for a different long post I'll most like use to answer somebodies questions in the next few days.

So, what they heck the the point in my saying all that? Well, let's get back to the front swaybar. The front swaybar will increase the effective spring rate of the wheel without effecting the ride spring rate. In other words, it will help keep the suspension from compressing so much at the loaded corner. Less compression means less loss of camber. Less loss of camber means that you can tune to, and maximize the contact patch of the tire to resist that push. Now, one of the things you need to consider - just like you can't make something from nothing, you can't make a good contact patch if you have nothing to give it to begin. Because the suspension will still compress some you need some negative camber in the front to start with. See the bajillion threads on alignment specs for where to start.

Now, for the second item I'd like to bring up something I've thought long and hard about for a long time. For ease I'll call it the philosphical side of the front suspension. Here's what we've got - a car that understeers or pushes quite a bit. Sure, you could throw a big bar in the rear and get the rear end to step out to help eliminate that understeer, but I feel that this is the wrong approach. The front of the car is still pushing, but the rear just happens to be stepping out at a faster rate than the front. The net result is a wider than what I feel is necessary lateral travel of the car. In other words, the rear is whipping around to point the front of the car where you want it to go, but the front of the car is still sliding sideways and taking the whole thing sideways making for a wider path than really is needed.

See, this stems from my philosophy that move oversteer does not necessarily mean less understeer. The front is still pushing. I feel the fix for this is to setup the front end of the car to truly reduce understeer as much as possible. This will make the front tuck in more, and while your tires will be resisting more lateral acceleration taking more grip from straight line acceleration (think traction circle), you'll be able to unwind from the turn faster thus getting you back toward the acceleration portion sooner than your competition. In other words, you'll be able to drive a tighter, and more controlled line.

Additionally, by reducing understeer as much as possible you won't have to set up the car for so much oversteer. This will also lead to more control, a tighter line, and the ability to accelerate sooner.

Now, that's great an all, but if you're looking for a simple answer as to what size bar to get then here it is (I'm giving these in terms of whiteline bars as I am most familiar with them):

Rear - 22mm to 24mm, but if you go to 24mm then you really want to think hard about upgrading your springs. If you go higher than 24mm then you are taking the wrong approach and trying to fix shortcomings of your springs with swaybars, and this is not the right way to do it. Get a proper spring for what you do, and then fine tune with a swaybar.

Front - for the street and mild autocross, and mild track work look at 24mm up front. If you start to get into it more then 26mm is good (WL makes a 24-26 adjustable front). These are also very good sizes if you are not a smooth driver as they won't make things too "darty" with super quick tuck of the front end into the apex. For autocross junkies or track whores who are smooth overall and can anticipate the "dartiness" then look at the 27 to 29mm front bar.

Now, two last thing on these considerations: You need a brand and size, and you need a vendor.

For the brand and size please do some research in the car parts review area. After receiving the parts you choose, and installing them please leave your feedback on them in the car parts review area so you can help others in the future.

The vendor part works the same way. Please research the vendors you are considering in the vendor review area. After the completion of the transaction please leave your feedback for that vendor in the vendor review area so that you can again help others in the future.

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So removing your front swaybar is going to reduce the front grip of a car. Wether your on dirt or not, making the contact patch of the front tires smaller while cornering is not going to help with grip.

[Azewaldo]

Now I really want to look at disconnecting the front bar for rally-x & off-roading... (based on Jon's post, not Drew's)

Somehow I thing that being on dirt or other loose surface is going to make more of a difference than you think. My understanding is that weight transfer is going to matter a great deal more than contact patch. Asphalt is a very even surface that you can rely on, where camber & contact patch is key. But the contact angle on dirt, gravel, snow, etc. is all over the place, and getting the weight down on one side or the other probably matters more. Besides, do you think you will be able to pull off a good flick with a 27mm bar up front?

[sebhockey]

Now I really want to look at disconnecting the front bar for rally-x & off-roading... (based on Jon's post, not Drew's)

Somehow I thing that being on dirt or other loose surface is going to make more of a difference than you think. My understanding is that weight transfer is going to matter a great deal more than contact patch. Asphalt is a very even surface that you can rely on, where camber & contact patch is key. But the contact angle on dirt, gravel, snow, etc. is all over the place, and getting the weight down on one side or the other probably matters more. Besides, do you think you will be able to pull off a good flick with a 27mm bar up front?

:shock: 27mm fsb.....holy crap. You will have so much understeer with a 27mm fsb that it will be extremely difficult to induce oversteer. Understeer bad, oversteer good.

[I Like It Sideways]

Hmm... I'm going to stick with what I've experienced, having a larger FSB on my RS, but Jon, when you disconnect yours, I'll be eager to hear how that changed the handling, as I wouldn't mind trying that too.
Its just one of those things like "well, I just hope someone else asks the question first". haha

[BlackParis]

Ok.. My opinion is about the same as drews' and TurnIn Concepts :).. Only due to much testing on my test track... I have stock FSB (same as STi front) and I tried a few laps with the Stock RSB and a few with my Helix 24mm and a few without any RSB... I did these tests on the SAME set of tyres, same alignment and same day... Condiotions of my track were: dry ~60 degree Fahr, and the soil composition of the track is a 90% highly organic soil with few pebble sized rocks, with 10% hard packed clay..

Baseline tests.... With the Helix RSB, My car is slopilly sideways 100% of the time (braking, turning, accelerating), but definitely the WORSE under power trying to dig out of corners (nothing a little throttle modulation couldn't fix, but having to lift the throttle is technically slower than not having to lift)

With the stock 13mm RSB, the car was MUCH more neutral, but still getting so sideways to the point of no return... Mainly due to too hard of braking, the throttle issue was nearly resolved... My lap times did improve about 2%....

Then to NO RSB... My car was certainly the MOST controllable It had been... It became impossible to kick the car sideways under power, a bit of trail braking would bring the rear out if needed, but straighter is faster ;) My lap times improved by 7% from the 24mm and are now on par with my neighbor on his Banshee 450cc ATV ;)

So in theory, you couldn't make a Negative swaybar, so the opposite of making a smaller rear would be to increase the front diameter.... (agreeing with drew)

HOWEVER... Driver style does also affect your laptimes... Getting sideways looks cool, but isn't necessarily faster... Hell most of the time its slower.. I PERSONALLY am big into a slight under-steer in my driving style, I hate braking and having the rear stepping out... If I am driving and the car is under-steering too much, I am braking too late or going to fast, slow down and the car becomes more neutral....

Now beyond the Swaybars, is the thing called alignment... I have covered my setup I have been playing with in other threads.. I have found the alignment REALLY determine how fast I can go around my test track... I have worked some rear toe in to my dirt setup and found it to be the best so far! Rear toe in creates straight line stability with less turn-in... So for my driving style this is great! --- To finish up my testing, From the first runs with my Auto-x setup, to my current setup (loads of understeer) I have improved my lap times from a 59.4second 3lap average, to a 53.6 3lap average...

and the results... I have movies of that! (Not the actual results, it was raining in this video, but I was still with NO RSB and some Rear Toe-In for this video :-D )
ofA9THXwXqc
Understeer FTW!

[greddy]

Now I really want to look at disconnecting the front bar for rally-x & off-roading... (based on Jon's post, not Drew's)

Somehow I thing that being on dirt or other loose surface is going to make more of a difference than you think. My understanding is that weight transfer is going to matter a great deal more than contact patch. Asphalt is a very even surface that you can rely on, where camber & contact patch is key. But the contact angle on dirt, gravel, snow, etc. is all over the place, and getting the weight down on one side or the other probably matters more. Besides, do you think you will be able to pull off a good flick with a 27mm bar up front?

That's what I'm thinkin too. Drew got a great explanation for a tarmac setup but gravel and snow are completely different. Swaybar isn't that important on loose surface cause when ur turnin, you don't have enough grip to completely compress the spring that are on the outside of the corner and the camber stay barely unchange.
The way I feel it is the wheels work better on a surface which can change fast when theres no restriction on it.

[sebhockey]

Seems like every one of us has a different opinion on what we each like. I guess the next step is to just try out a few different setups and go with what you like.

I personally like my COBB front and rear sway bars with upgraded endlinks. I have neutral steering and can induce oversteer with ease.

[UP2MTNS]

Ok.. My opinion is about the same as drews' and TurnIn Concepts :).. Only due to much testing on my test track... I have stock FSB (same as STi front) and I tried a few laps with the Stock RSB and a few with my Helix 24mm and a few without any RSB... I did these tests on the SAME set of tyres, same alignment and same day... Condiotions of my track were: dry ~60 degree Fahr, and the soil composition of the track is a 90% highly organic soil with few pebble sized rocks, with 10% hard packed clay..

Baseline tests.... With the Helix RSB, My car is slopilly sideways 100% of the time (braking, turning, accelerating), but definitely the WORSE under power trying to dig out of corners (nothing a little throttle modulation couldn't fix, but having to lift the throttle is technically slower than not having to lift)(see point number 1)

With the stock 13mm RSB, the car was MUCH more neutral, but still getting so sideways to the point of no return... Mainly due to too hard of braking, the throttle issue was nearly resolved... My lap times did improve about 2%....
(see point #2)
Then to NO RSB... My car was certainly the MOST controllable It had been... It became impossible to kick the car sideways under power, a bit of trail braking would bring the rear out if needed, but straighter is faster ;) My lap times improved by 7% from the 24mm and are now on par with my neighbor on his Banshee 450cc ATV ;) (see pointe #3)



you actually just validated the points I made.

#1) Stiffer sway bar (helix) = less weight transfer = easier to slide out (we're talking REAR sway bar, so that = oversteer)

#2) medium sway bar (stock) = medium weight transfer (more grip) = bit more traction = harder to kick out = less oversteer

#3) 'loose' (NO sway bar) = most weight transfer = car is neutral (where you want to be!) ( = most rear traction)

You went from front and rear 'unbalanced' (too much oversteer) to a 'neutral balance'.

Now, if you want to stay on this path and continue past this neutral point....yes, to make a 'negatative' RSB, you could make a thicker (stiffer) FRONT sway bar.....but we started with a lot of oversteer.....went to neutral....and to continue means now we start getting into understeer (back end kicks out the least).....with a stiffer front sway bar (just like a stiffer rear sway bar) it become easier for the front end to 'kick out'.

SO....just like you REMOVED the REAR to stop the back from kicking out (most rear traction).....you can also REMOVE the FRONT to stop the front end from kicking out (most front traction).

Therefore, in rally (dirt), you want to HAVE a rear sway bar (to get the rear to kick out easier) and you want to REMOVE the front sway bar (to plant the front end and reduce understeer. Now, exactly where that balance is....depends on the chassis (how rigid is it?), the rest of the suspension, and of course, driver style and preference.

So in theory, you couldn't make a Negative swaybar, so the opposite of making a smaller rear would be to increase the front diameter.... (agreeing with drew)Like I said, your post and experiment proved my point....you and Drew just came to the wrong conclusion (sorry guys, I know I'm right on this one) :) Well, it also proves Drew's point is wrong about 'camber.' He said keeping the sway bar adds traction by reducing the effects of losing camber on a corner. If the sway bar keeps the camber in alignment....how come when he removed the sway bar, the rears GAINED traction?


__________________________________________________ ______


Paris' Tarmac experiment is exactly what happens on gravel and snow as well, only because of the loss of friction element, its not as obvious. so while Paris would see a big difference between a Cobb rear sway bar set to 'loose' vs the 'stiffest (track only) setting.....on snow, you might not notice as much of a difference (especially on street tires).

[UP2MTNS]

oh, I read/responded to Paris' post before seeing/reading this....ok, a few responses then I'm going to bed....


You haven't done your research on Suby suspension. Oh, and we were doing so good for a second there. lets keep this a civil discussion, please don't tell me what I have or haven't done properly.

OH....and do you have that turn-in concepts link? I'm on their website, but can't find the write up.

As part of this traditional thinking folks scream get a bigger rear bar, and leave the front alone or go smaller. I have to disagree on this. Here's why -

First, let's look at the technical reason. The dynamic camber curve for the mcpherson strut setup sucks. It just does. That's a tradeoff of running this type of setup, and all setups have their good and bad points. What happens is this - you enter a turn at speed. Your ourside front corner gets loaded with weight. That weight compresses the suspension. When the suspension compresses the camber of that wheel, where that tire is loaded, rolls toward positive camber. If you're running very little static negative camber this will actually start to make the inside edge of the tire light, reducing the width of your effective contact patch that resists lateral acceleration. This lose of traction results in that "push" or understeer condition. This is why folks who are more into performance run a decent amount of negative front camber. Sure, they give up some straight line accel and decel grip doing this, but that's more than offset by the fact that they can maximize the width of the contact patch in turns to help resist higher slip angles due to lateral acceleration. If you lower the car any with springs or coilovers that camber curve gets worse. Oh, and the added bumpsteer sucks too. Fortunately the fine fellows at 6Gun have figured out a way to help that, but that's for a different long post I'll most like use to answer somebodies questions in the next few days.

So, what they heck the the point in my saying all that? Well, let's get back to the front swaybar. The front swaybar will increase the effective spring rate of the wheel without effecting the ride spring rate. In other words, it will help keep the suspension from compressing so much at the loaded corner. Less compression means less loss of camber. Less loss of camber means that you can tune to, and maximize the contact patch of the tire to resist that push. Now, one of the things you need to consider - just like you can't make something from nothing, you can't make a good contact patch if you have nothing to give it to begin. Because the suspension will still compress some you need some negative camber in the front to start with.

I agree with your first technical paragraph above. I disagree with the 2nd. When the suspension compresses, negative camber is increased, that's a simple fact. No research necessary.....take the dynamics out of your example: ie. take a car just sitting in your drive way....set it up on an alignment computer....drop it 2 inches, and watch the negative camber increase. Its pretty simple.

See the bajillion threads on alignment specs for where to start.<----this is why they make camber bolts for rear Suby suspensions if you drop the car too far, you need them to keep the proper alignment specs.

Negative camber (while turning) decreases because of the forces of the track and the weight of the car bends the suspension out. A sway bar has little to do with keeping the camber straight (see Paris' experiment......)

I agree that a sway bar can affect the spring rate. But how much a spring compresses does NOT CHANGE THE FORCES ON THE SUSPENSION IN A CORNER. (not yelling, just making the point...haha) I don't care if you have a straight piece of steel connecting the hub to the strut tower (so you'd have zero compression, right?). If you're pulling .95G's....there's forces acting on that piece of steel, and its going to flex., even if just a little bit...its going to flex OUT, this is what bends the suspension out of alignment. Once again, a sway bar cannot remove these forces...its physics.

Now, for the second item I'd like to bring up something I've thought long and hard about for a long time. For ease I'll call it the philosphical side of the front suspension. Here's what we've got - a car that understeers or pushes quite a bit. Sure, you could throw a big bar in the rear and get the rear end to step out to help eliminate that understeer, but I feel that this is the wrong approach. The front of the car is still pushing, but the rear just happens to be stepping out at a faster rate than the front. The net result is a wider than what I feel is necessary lateral travel of the car. In other words, the rear is whipping around to point the front of the car where you want it to go, but the front of the car is still sliding sideways and taking the whole thing sideways making for a wider path than really is needed.

See, this stems from my philosophy that move oversteer does not necessarily mean less understeer. The front is still pushing. I feel the fix for this is to setup the front end of the car to truly reduce understeer as much as possible. This will make the front tuck in more, and while your tires will be resisting more lateral acceleration taking more grip from straight line acceleration (think traction circle), you'll be able to unwind from the turn faster thus getting you back toward the acceleration portion sooner than your competition. In other words, you'll be able to drive a tighter, and more controlled line.



Here I'm going to agree, and also say 'undecieded.' I agree that there's a good way and a bad way to make a car 'neutral'. Yup, you can put on a big rear sway to cause too much oversteer...and then fix that with a bigger front sway bar.....best suspension set up? maybe...maybe not. vise versa in creating a neutral set up with no front and no rear.....best set up? maybe...maybe not. Now you're getting into the driver preferences....application (two big sway bars? probably not best on the dirt)....and 'philosophy.'

Additionally, by reducing understeer as much as possible you won't have to set up the car for so much oversteer. This will also lead to more control, a tighter line, and the ability to accelerate sooner.

Where I'm 'undecided'.....any suspension is a system. Anything you do on one end is going to affect the other side. So when you say 'reduce understeer'......that, in effect, is automatically creating more oversteer. How you create that understeer is up to you....You can create understeer by adjusting the front or rear sway bars.

Now, when oversteer = understeer....that is a neutral system, and that's basically where you want to be. How far off of neutral a car is set up, is purely driver preference (in my opinion).

This goes back to the 'two giant sway bars to create a neutral suspension?' question. If we re-visit paris' experiment....he removed the rear sway, improved his times, etc. But is that the best set up? How much does his rear end slosh around now with no rear sway? is there a better way to get the same neutral effect, but also keep the car level, and keep his faster times? Would keeping the stock rear sway, but getting different valving in the front (or rear?) struts have the same effect?

I guess this is where I get philosophical about suspension in that everything must work together, and probably the one place where Drew and I agree in this thread:lol2:, is that you can't fix a suspension by over compensating in just one area (ie a bigger, stiffer rear sway)....instead, make a small change, that will change other things, see what changes, then make another small change.

[UP2MTNS]

ah, found it, from TIC....

The BSF33Z 02+ WRX is an adjustable front swaybar by Whiteline measures in at 22mm and, like all Whiteline bars, is solid. This bar is adjustable and allows for the softest setting at 22mm with one additional stiffer adjustment.
Traditional thinking holds that if you want better rotation from the car you would change out the rear swaybar, and leave the front pretty much alone. Typically, you'd be correct, but due to the Subaru's McPherson front suspension setup this thinking has changed. See here's what happens - as you compress the front suspension in a turn the outside wheel rolls over more toward positive camber. Sure you could run more negative camber up front (in fact we recommend it), but you still roll over toward positive camber. This lowers your effective grip up front and leads toward more understeer. This is typically a bad thing. Now, let's be honest here - Subarus will understeer all day long, and something really needs to be done about it. Changing out this bar will help, in fact it will help a lot. Plus, this one is adjustable, which means if you like to fiddle with your settings and REALLY fine tune the setup to how you drive then this makes for a great bar. It's a good size, adjustable, and it not too big for those folks who drive are looking for a good compromise for performance on a car that is regularly driven on the streets every day. Ok....they got halfway through explaining the issue due to the MacPherson set up, but they didn't qualify their statement.....ummm, HOW is it going to help? This tells me nothing. (I'm not saying this isn't a good product, or that TIC isn't right....I'm just saying.....this tells me nothing)

Two corners....same speed, different sway bars....I'm still going to have the same forces acting on the suspension, flexing it out of alignment, which a sway bar can't stop.

[Drew84]

Here I know you may not like NASIOC but the tech info is legit
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1152714

Getting the car sideways may be fun, but its not really always the fast way around the corner. A larger front bar will allow you to hold a tighter line. The trick to rally-x and Auto-x is to make the course as "straight" as possible. The fastest drivers rarely have the car completely sideways. I can't see not having a front swaybar helping at all. The contact patch of the tires changing erratically between corners. How could you possibly make your self smooth?

[wr-ecks]

Here I know you may not like NASIOC but the tech info is legit
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1152714 (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1152714)

Getting the car sideways may be fun, but its not really always the fast way around the corner. A larger front bar will allow you to hold a tighter line. The trick to rally-x and Auto-x is to make the course as "straight" as possible. The fastest drivers rarely have the car completely sideways. I can't see not having a front swaybar helping at all. The contact patch of the tires changing erratically between corners. How could you possibly make your self smooth?


i dont think the fastest way around a turn (dirt,gravel etc.) is "completely" sideways but i do at least in my expierence think that going through a turn with the rear end sliding is faster then having to slow and take the turn without sliding. my car (and im probably the one with the least amount of expierence here) will understeer pretty bad if im not careful (stock swaybars) and if having a stiffer sway bar in the rear will make it easier to prevent that ( my particular driving style doesnt involve a lot of understeer) then ill probably do it. i realize that a entire susp. setup would be a much better fix than just getting a stiff rsb but its gonna take a while before ive got the money to do all that. i think ill let this thread play out some more though before i decide fully. good stuff though. very interesting.

[Drew84]

What I'm trying to get you to understand is that the car won't understeer "really bad" Right now just drive the car. Play with the active diff. I find it works better in auto, but some people like it moved around a bit.

[UP2MTNS]

Here I know you may not like NASIOC but the tech info is legit
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1152714

Getting the car sideways may be fun, but its not really always the fast way around the corner. A larger front bar will allow you to hold a tighter line. The trick to rally-x and Auto-x is to make the course as "straight" as possible. The fastest drivers rarely have the car completely sideways. I can't see not having a front swaybar helping at all. The contact patch of the tires changing erratically between corners. How could you possibly make your self smooth?

I haven't read the nasioc thread yet (just got into the office), but I certainly agree with you that getting sideways isn't the fastest line on pave ment....(drifters are cool....but slow around the track).

on the dirt, you simply can't hold that line...no matter what your contact patch looks like. Look at all the vids of pastrana, etc going around corners.....they pretty much turn the car in the dirt before they even get to the corner (remember 409's little video in his sig?)

anyway....i suddenly feel like we're talking about two different things regarding 'contact patch'. If you said everything you just said, but replace 'sway bar' with 'strut bar', I agree 100%. But again, on dirt, don't forget the surface changes as well......so like I said before, you may see a difference, but it won't be as pronounced as it would be on tarmac.

[UP2MTNS]

I agree that a sway bar can affect the spring rate. But how much a spring compresses does NOT CHANGE THE FORCES ON THE SUSPENSION IN A CORNER. (not yelling, just making the point...haha) I don't care if you have a straight piece of steel connecting the hub to the strut tower (so you'd have zero compression, right?). If you're pulling .95G's....there's forces acting on that piece of steel, and its going to flex., even if just a little bit...its going to flex OUT, this is what bends the suspension out of alignment. Once again, a sway bar cannot remove these forces...its physics.

ah, was looking for this last night.....found it. Here's a diagram to show what I'm talking about.

http://content.performanceproducts.com/main/110773/Vehicle%20Illustration.jpg

[Drew84]

Yes so by reducing the front body roll of the car, your reducing the amount that the tire rolls into positive camber, keeping the contact patch larger and more consistant. You are now holding the negative alignment better. Tarmac or Dirt more rubber touching the ground is gonna give you more traction. Rolling the car up on to the edges of the tires is not making an effective use of the tires contact patch.
I would really like to know what Vermont Sports car runs on the SRTUSA cars and mabey the guy from the SYMS USA team could chime in.

[UP2MTNS]

I would really like to know what Vermont Sports car runs on the SRTUSA cars and mabey the guy from the SYMS USA team could chime in.

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/2083/underbody5qe.jpg


I can't tell, is there a rear sway bar in there somewhere?

[greddy]

You can see the swaybar at the end of the diff protector.



It seems to be the same swaybar as wrc car using:http://www.subaruwrcspares.com/resources/_wsb_516x319_Rollbars.jpg

On this pics are the gravel/tarmac front and rear sway that wrc cars use(15-30mm).

[Rallycat66]

What everyone seems to be forgetting in this thread is that when you have enough grip to actually compress the suspension enough to cause camber/alignment issues, then you'd want a sway bar. The only time you'd want no sway bar is when there is very limited grip (aka ice and snow) where you can't find enough grip to compress the suspension in the first place.

And the WRC set up is really cool. It takes all of 30 seconds for them to change the sway bar. Pull the two nuts off the top of the connecting rod and the actual sway bar, then slide out the sway bar (it goes through a tube straight through the chassis of the car - or in the case of the picture a couple of posts up, it's that straight bar you see), slide in the new bar, and reconnect the two nuts. Really slick setup.


Tim

[UP2MTNS]

What everyone seems to be forgetting in this thread is that when you have enough grip to actually compress the suspension enough to cause camber/alignment issues, then you'd want a sway bar. The only time you'd want no sway bar is when there is very limited grip (aka ice and snow) where you can't find enough grip to compress the suspension in the first place.


Thanks Rallycat, I think that's the disconnect between Drew and I. He's talking tarmac application, I'm talking more dirt application.

That said, its still all about balancing the system.....you could say dirt is the middle of the road for traction (ice/snow and tarmac w/raciing slicks being the extreme on both sides). So you may/may not need to go as extreme as totally removing a sway bar, but if you already have a decent suspension system (and not the stock WRX set up) that can properly compensate for that change, then its fun to play around.

[Azewaldo]

I had the same theory as RallyCat66: The less traction you have, the less lateral force is applied to the contact patch, therefore less body roll and less wheel lean towards positive camber. For instance, ice gives very little sideways resistance in a corner. This would lead you to believe that as traction is reduced, sway bar thickness would also need to be reduced to achieve the same stabilizing results from the anti-sway bar.

Also, on another point mentioned earlier - an explanation of why it really is faster on dirt to slide through turns...

Simply put, cornering relies on the ability to apply a lateral (sideways) force at the contact patch. Tarmac provides massive amounts of traction (friction), giving you a wide friction circle to work with, allowing you to stay lined up with the racing line at high speed, and stay within the friction circle.

On dirt (or gravel, ice, etc.) there is far less traction available, and you quickly leave the friction circle at low speed. If you stayed within the friction circle you would be limited to very low speed. To exert more force outwards, away from the center of the corner, you need to point the drive wheels inwards, so that they are driving the car towards the inside of the turn as you progress forwards around the curve. In essence, you are fighting the centrifugal force (outwards) with drive power (inwards).

Why this works in rally, and not on tarmac? My theory is, again, because of friction: sliding sideways on tarmac gets you nowhere because the friction against the sideways-slipping tires overcomes the forward inertia of the car. On dirt, the inertia of the car more easily overcomes the lower friction of dirt surfaces. Less forward momentum is lost while the drive wheels are pointed away from forward.

Does that make sense???

[Rallycat66]

Why this works in rally, and not on tarmac? My theory is, again, because of friction: sliding sideways on tarmac gets you nowhere because the friction against the sideways-slipping tires overcomes the forward inertia of the car. On dirt, the inertia of the car more easily overcomes the lower friction of dirt surfaces. Less forward momentum is lost while the drive wheels are pointed away from forward.

Does that make sense???

You can go VERY fast on tarmac using rally style slip angles and looking all spectacular...











for about 1 lap. :twisted:

The issue with high slip angles on tarmac is that you quickly overheat the tires and then you're toast. Modern tires and suspension like to track with very little slip angle. But, find some footage from 60's vintage F1 cars or 70's era NASCAR and you'll see some impressive slip angles. Seeing the big old winged warriors going around Daytona and Talledega corners at 200 MPH with a visible slip angle was mighty impressive.

The less grip between the tires and road, the greater the ideal slip angle tends to be.

[drt suby]

my front sway bar was removed for the Laughlin race.. it handled great.. understeer was reduced. it leaned much more then usual but that was expected.. It seemed easier to "flick" around..

[UP2MTNS]

I had the same theory as RallyCat66: The less traction you have, the less lateral force is applied to the contact patch, therefore less body roll and less wheel lean towards positive camber. For instance, ice gives very little sideways resistance in a corner. This would lead you to believe that as traction is reduced, sway bar thickness would also need to be reduced to achieve the same stabilizing results from the anti-sway bar.

Also, on another point mentioned earlier - an explanation of why it really is faster on dirt to slide through turns...

Simply put, cornering relies on the ability to apply a lateral (sideways) force at the contact patch. Tarmac provides massive amounts of traction (friction), giving you a wide friction circle to work with, allowing you to stay lined up with the racing line at high speed, and stay within the friction circle.

On dirt (or gravel, ice, etc.) there is far less traction available, and you quickly leave the friction circle at low speed. If you stayed within the friction circle you would be limited to very low speed. To exert more force outwards, away from the center of the corner, you need to point the drive wheels inwards, so that they are driving the car towards the inside of the turn as you progress forwards around the curve. In essence, you are fighting the centrifugal force (outwards) with drive power (inwards).

Why this works in rally, and not on tarmac? My theory is, again, because of friction: sliding sideways on tarmac gets you nowhere because the friction against the sideways-slipping tires overcomes the forward inertia of the car. On dirt, the inertia of the car more easily overcomes the lower friction of dirt surfaces. Less forward momentum is lost while the drive wheels are pointed away from forward.

Does that make sense???

hey Dusty.....you've got half of it. the 'friction circle' is right out of CRS (and Paul Eklunds) rally school! nice work, haha.

because of the low friction, like you said, it becomes very easy (too easy) to brake the tires loose. In a corner, you need to do two things 1)brake (typically before the corner, but lets not get too off topic) and 2) turn. For any car, when the friction circle is overcome, the front end will brake loose first you get the typical over steer.

so, assuming you try to drive around a dirty corner w/o getting sideways, you can't do both at the same rate....if you slam on the brakes, you can't turn....and if you're coming in too fast, and start to turn hard, you can't do much else. you can't hit the gas either until you're coming out of the turn because again, you need the traction to turn, and gunning it will break you loose as well.

Enter the Scandinavian flick. By getting the car sideways before the turn, when you get to the turn, you don't have to worry about turning. You're sideways, so you're slowing down w/o even touching the brakes....this allows you to get on the throttle much faster, take the 'best line' (lfb and throttle steer, etc) and come flying out the other side.

disclaimer^^^^^^the above is easier said than done^^^^^

in a rallyX with slower speeds, however, the importance of the flick is reduced. At Laughlin, on a big sweeper, I got completely sideways (FUN)....hit some sand (suddenly a lot of friction) and because I wasn't going that fast I slowed WAYYY down and lost time (NOT FUN). In that case, it would have been better if I kept the car straighter (same line) and just plowed through the sandy section. (but then it wouldn't have LOOKED fast...haha)

[BlackParis]

Here I know you may not like NASIOC but the tech info is legit
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1152714

Getting the car sideways may be fun, but its not really always the fast way around the corner. A larger front bar will allow you to hold a tighter line. The trick to rally-x and Auto-x is to make the course as "straight" as possible. The fastest drivers rarely have the car completely sideways. I can't see not having a front swaybar helping at all. The contact patch of the tires changing erratically between corners. How could you possibly make your self smooth?

+1

It really depends on your driving style...

If you guys like being sideways, fine take off your front bar.... I dont... I only have 110whp to work with... If I am sideways spinning my tyres, I am wasting power.... I really like to find the traction I need to go around the corner as smooth as possible and be able put all the power down coming out of the corner...

For me understeer is better... Disconecting front swaybar FTL...

[UP2MTNS]

we've gone off topic....lets bring it back on.

but first:


It really depends on your driving style...

I dont... I only have 110whp to work with...
For me understeer is better... Disconecting front swaybar FTL...


Why would you give advice specific to your personal preference and your car's specs? This thread isn't about driving style, its about the function of the sway bars.

If you guys like being sideways, fine take off your front bar.... So then you agree? Taking off your front gives you more traction to steer and easier to get sideways...

I'm just confused because previously you were saying adding more front sway bar gives you more traction.

I certainly understand that, hey, if you want to understeer and that's your personal preference, then go for it. Me, I like to have options....if I want to understeer, I can get my car to do that, no problem. But I also want my car to be able to oversteer as well (when I want it to).






And back to the off-topic side convo:

If I am sideways spinning my tyres, I am wasting powerthat depends, if you're flying HOT into a corner sideways, then no, you're not wasting power. You're in a flick....by going sideways you're slowing down w/o having to slam on the brakes, AND you've already turned your car. Now you can use your LFB and throttle to control your turn (and complete it right at the apex) so that you can come out hot.

In the dirt, if you're not close to completly rotating your vehicle by the time you hit the proper apex (typically a late apex), and you hit the throttle at that point you'll understeer like a pig (and it won't matter what your suspension set up is). This gets back into the friction circle stuff right out of the rally schools.

to nicely prove my point on why sideways is faster through a corner, please see this thread:
http://www.dirtyimpreza.com/forums/showthread.php?p=20980#post20980

(snow doesn't car how fast or slow your car is, if you come into an icy hairpin corner....you better get your car to rotate first)

[UP2MTNS]

The trick to rally-x and Auto-x is to make the course as "straight" as possible. look at the flick in my video at time 1:10. hairpin 180 degree turn....apex right in the middle of that (could have been a little later, but whatever).

Here's a screen shot at about 1:14. I'm onabout 3/4 of the way through that turn, but yet I have a straight shot at the next right hand turn cone. I'm hard on the gas right now....if you weren't sideways through that corner, you'd still be getting the car to finish the turn and would have to wait on the gas.

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/6935/screenshotxn6.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1wf_pBWpx4


(wow....I did a bad job of staying on topic....haha)

[I Like It Sideways]

I will have to interject my recent experience in the snow.

Last year with my stock RS FSB, the car understeered much less than it does now, With the WRX FSB, it takes a lot more to get the car to rotate now.
Now, given that, while the car is rotated, I feel like I can accelerate out of a turn much faster than when I had my stock sway bar. I attribute this to less body roll, allowing more grip to go to both front wheels instead of lifting the inside tire.

I will be disconnecting my sway bar for snow rallyx's though. One day of driving in the snow persuaded me enough.

In the deeper stuff, the car rotated just fine. It was really on the icier stuff that I could not get the car to rotate without flicking it, or heavy usage of the throttle (which induced more understeer, then finally oversteer). This seems to be because the thicker FSB allows less weight transfer, which is difficult to get in slippery stuff where grip is not available to help transfer weight. Flicking was difficult. I stayed away from the handbrake, but that would have helped.

[BlackParis]

we've gone off topic....lets bring it back on.

but first:

Why would you give advice specific to your personal preference and your car's specs? This thread isn't about driving style, its about the function of the sway bars.


Is it now? Here is the OPs' Question...

if i put stiffer sway bars on my sti is it gonna be rough when im on dirt/gravel roads and make things a lot harder cause the suspension wont travel as much?? or is it different with more speed? i dont care as much about the added handling on pavement if it makes it worse off road. dont want to spend 500 dollars on sway bars just to decide i dont want them.
thanks to whoever answers my question. :headbang:

SOO.. I gave him My experience, My setup, vs. My Driving style.... I dont believe he was asking for full "How it Works" description of swaybars... I think he already had an Idea of how they worked, from his experience with trucks.. His question was more of a"what is your guys experience with swaybars on subarus in the dirt?"


So then you agree? Taking off your front gives you more traction to steer and easier to get sideways...


Yes... But for me there is a point where its called "oops, too much sideways", taking off the front would probably do that to me...


I'm just confused because previously you were saying adding more front sway bar gives you more traction.


Me yep ;) Maybe not you, obviously your driving style is different... Though I have not tested it, But in theory yes it would help unless I went beyond my comfort point...


I certainly understand that, hey, if you want to understeer and that's your personal preference, then go for it. Me, I like to have options....if I want to understeer, I can get my car to do that, no problem. But I also want my car to be able to oversteer as well (when I want it to).


My experience shwed me, my fastest laps on my practice track were with NO RSB.. I can make the car stick when I want it to, and Slide when I want it to.. NO RSB fits my driving style on the track surface I described, on the setup I described... Ok, It's not going to work for Everyone or, Every track surface...

I will probably be doing some IceRacing this Winter.. My plan is to Run the Helix 24mm rear Swaybar.. Know why? There is Little weight transfer on ice, and I will certainly need it for turn-in, I may even disconect the front if I need to...

[I Like It Sideways]

I'd say disconnect the FSB on ice. I couldn't turn in worth a crap on ice with even a WRX FSB.

[UP2MTNS]

I will probably be doing some IceRacing this Winter.. My plan is to Run the Helix 24mm rear Swaybar.. Know why? There is Little weight transfer on ice, and I will certainly need it for turn-in, I may even disconect the front if I need to...

LOL, well now I'm really confused, cause this is what I've been saying all along, but I thought we were disagreeing on something.

to make it easier to turn-in/induce oversteer get a stiffer/bigger rear sway, OR get a smaller/remove your front sway bar. done and done. ;)

[Blix666]

:pissed::pissed::pissed:













;)

[BlackParis]

LOL, well now I'm really confused, cause this is what I've been saying all along, but I thought we were disagreeing on something.

to make it easier to turn-in/induce oversteer get a stiffer/bigger rear sway, OR get a smaller/remove your front sway bar. done and done. ;)

I was disagreeing because of what my laptimes showed on my dirt course, But I KNOW that no RSB on glare ice is not the way to go, even for my driving style, I'll just end up going straight off the course...

Like I said swaybars truly depend on driving style and the track surface....

[/thread]

[UP2MTNS]

Like I said swaybars truly depend on driving style and the track surface....

[/thread]

+1

I'll also add that it depends on your suspension set up as well. I know with mine (aftermarket, Bilstein), I went for about 2 weeks with no rear sway bar (busted endlinks) and I didn't feel much difference accept at 60+mph on the highway.

[Zap]

What travel looks like with no sway bar.

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/photos/data/500/142swaybarloss.jpg

[Drew84]

I still don't condone removing your front sway bar. For now it may work but I see people hitting a figurative wall with this method when their driving improves.

[RS-ti_Andy]

um.. sway bars stop body roll and give you better handeling.. end links contol the suspension travel and prevents the death shake.. my 2 cents lol

[pigpen]

What travel looks like with no sway bar.

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/photos/data/500/142swaybarloss.jpg

that makes me want to remove both sway bars...

i broke my FSB off about 35k miles ago, and my Legacy has been way more fun ever since. unfortunately, I cannot comment on how well it works in a rallycross yet, but the car definitely rotates a lot more easily.

[PawnOne]

I am a newbe here and a rookie in the colorado SCCA rallyX. I am running an almost stock 06 wrx sp wagon (whiteline front end links are all I have done to the susp.) I was wondering if it would be better to disconnect the FSB, or go up to a whiteline 22mm 3 way adjustable RSB. As for disconecting the FSB what do I need to do so I dont hurt somthing els do I have to remove it completely?

By the way I dont like the understeer I get. I would rather get more oversteer on dirt. I like to use the ebrake but if I could get some oversteer without using it I think I could be faster. because I would rather stay off the clutch and on the gas if I can.

as for the RSB will I have to get the mounts also, or will the whiteline 22mm RSB work with the stock RSB mounts?:shootsself:

[pigpen]

By the way I dont like the understeer I get. I would rather get more oversteer on dirt. I like to use the ebrake but if I could get some oversteer without using it I think I could be faster. because I would rather stay off the clutch and on the gas if I can.

have you tried left-foot braking? that usually helps reduce understeer.

[04trailsti]

Wrong on a Subaru you want a front swaybar, as backwards as it sounds. A stiffer front bar will help the car hold the front alignment. With a mchperson strut car in as the suspension is compressed you loose camber from the front wheels, this is most noticable when cornering. Stiffer bar=better alignment better alignment=better handling. My opinon is whether your on loose terrain or pavement if you can hold the camber curve consant your gonna have more grip. Trust me an STi with its smart center Diff will have no trouble steping out the rear on dirt.



very true and to add to this. subarus generaly have understeer. most people try to compisate that by inducing over steer, and slapping on a huge rear sway bar. but SOG performance ha da write up about instead of doing that just bring the car back to neutral by reducing under steer. i went with the front sway bar first and it made teh car so much more balanced. and you also gotta think about t like this your not really goin for travel on the rally x track unless its really really rough. you want to keep your tires planted for better traction, and the sway bars do that

[lminette]

I'm all for upgrading sways and having your shocks/springs sucking up all the bumps. I've been told that this is Leon Styles' set up of choice, soft shocks/springs to suck up the bumps and stiff sways to keep everything tracking well.

[wr-ecks]

im about to order new swaybars (very stiff) front and rear for my car next week and i will let you guys know what i think.

Like I said swaybars truly depend on driving style and the track surface....

i agree with this