suspension build on a budget...

[strat]

I know that low cost and suspension are not two words that go together well.

that aside, i'm looking for recommendations for a good suspension setup for rallyx, time/distance rally, and playing on some dirt roads. currently i have front/rear ebay strut bars (cheap and still relatively effective) and a set of JIC FLTA 2's (one of which needs to be fixed cuz i'm an idiot and overtorqued a bolt)

what other suspension bits would you guys recommend for the dirt? also, will the JIC's work well or should i be looking into something else? (right now the car's back on stock struts/springs.

i'm thinking i'll probably do it in stages so i'll buy parts as i can...

input? :waving:

[I Like It Sideways]

A larger front sway bar would be a good investment, believe it or not. Helps keep the front end planted and improves turn-in. Stiffer bushings are always a good investment, and upgraded end links.

There is debate about how effective a front strut tower brace really is... I've never installed one, so I'm not for sure, but others have said that subarus understeer more with than without.

I'm not sure about the JIC's, others will be able to give input on those :)

[BorkedWRX]

When I had a front strut tower bar, while it improved turn in, it also increased understeer...

[strat]

i've had good luck with a stb in a different application although i've heard they aren't really necessary in the subaru until the suspension is pretty built.

[BlackParis]

For dirt, I would take apart the JIC's and call up Swift Springs and order a longer softer spring ;)

I did a quick search for JIC FLTA-2 and sounded like most of their spring rates were 5kg+/mm so I would go with about 3-3.5kg/mm

5kg/mm would be fine if you were doing pavement events too, but for strictly gravel I'd spend $ for softer springs...

What car are you doing this to? more caster always helps ;) if its a sedan look for 04-06 STi control arms...

Just some things to look into ;)

[409industries]

I didnt notice anything really when i installed my front tower brace. Ill be the first to admit, it was just for looks ;)

Swaybars and upgraded endlinks will definitely improve your handling, but its going to be up to you how hard / soft to set them in the front and rear.

[strat]

this is on an 02 wrx.

i've heard mixed reviews about sways and dirt which is one of the reasons i wanted to get some opinions. any ill effects running upgraded sways/links? also, what do you guys generally run in the way of alignment? is negative camber still worthwhile on dirt?

i'll look into the springs for the JIC's. it probably won't happen for a bit though. the struts will suffice though?

[JacksonRally]

Yes -camber is worthwhile on dirt!

[I Like It Sideways]

Negative camber worth it.

I have a wrx FSB on my RS (3mm bigger I think than a stock RS sway bar), and on the dirt(or just about anything), the car turns in much better. I have a 3 way adj RSB, that I had on full stiff for awhile, but I was lifting my inside rear tire too much. Back on full soft, the car still rotates great, and the rear springs/struts now can act a bit more independently.

[BlackParis]

Well... heres my experience with my best setup on dirt so far.. I have a test track on my own property so I can go out change stuff and compare laptimes/car feel ;) Nothing beats seat time!

My parts:
Stock front swaybar
24mm Helix Swaybar
Tanabe GF210 Springs 1inch lower (4.5kg/mm front 4.0kg/mm rear)
KYB AGX Struts
SPC Camber Bolts

On pavement my alignment goes
Front toe= 0
Rear toe = 0
Front Camber = -3.5
Rear Camber = -3.0

RSB Full stiff
AGX Full


Gravel:
Front toe= 0
Rear toe = in 3/8inch
Front Camber = -2.25
Rear Camber = -2.0

No rear swaybar
Rear AGX half way ( 4/8 )
Front AGX Full ( 4/4 )

I found those to be my best setups... Obviously Every driver has his own idea of how a car should feel, these are how I like it! And these are somewhat specific to my track, and similar surfaces... Partially packed clay, and partially a slightly loose highly organic soil with few pebbles and fewer "rocks"

I do all my own alignments in my driveway with strings... Its not hard and saves alot of money ;) There is a good thread on nasioc in suspension about how to do it ;) Math is required to do Camber... http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1093484

[T-Heineken]

Thanks for the info Paris. I think I've finally decided on some AGX struts myself, still contemplating the strings though. I think I'll give that self-alignment from NASIOC a try too.
...I love DIY

[I Like It Sideways]

Good call. Paris can attest to the AGX's in dirt as can I. I have no regrets about buying them.

As for springs, maybe look into Eibach. Not so much the kits they offer, but whats great about Eibach is you can custom order any spring you want. You tell them the spring length, diameter, and rates, and they will send you what you want. They also have a liftetime warranty if your springs begin to sag, or drop in rate, they will replace them for free. I haven't put that to the test yet, but in the next year or two I probably will.

For reference, I have 10 inch springs, 225 lb in the front, 200lb in the rear. I ordered them through Ground-Control.com (http://www.ground-control-store.com/products/category.php/CA=25), along with their coil sleeves, so I can adjust ride height.

[T-Heineken]

I have been looking at the Eibachs, as well as the Whiteline (my buddy has 'em on his wagon and he likes them, but not dirty tested).
What springs/size would you guys suggest for a wagon?

[I Like It Sideways]

For dirt, I'd recommend spring rates in the front between 200-250, and 175-225 for the rear. I assume the car is nearly stock (in terms of weight), you might want to lean towards the stiffer side.

[UP2MTNS]

Good call. Paris can attest to the AGX's in dirt as can I. I have no regrets about buying them.

As for springs, maybe look into Eibach. Not so much the kits they offer, but whats great about Eibach is you can custom order any spring you want. You tell them the spring length, diameter, and rates, and they will send you what you want. They also have a liftetime warranty if your springs begin to sag, or drop in rate, they will replace them for free. I haven't put that to the test yet, but in the next year or two I probably will.

For reference, I have 10 inch springs, 225 lb in the front, 200lb in the rear. I ordered them through Ground-Control.com (http://www.ground-control-store.com/products/category.php/CA=25), along with their coil sleeves, so I can adjust ride height.

careful with the ID measurement. Eibach only has SAE IDs availabe (2.5inch, 3inch, 2.25inch, etc). You MAY have metric ID's (my bilsteins are 70mm and 60mm ID).....Eibachs won't fit that.

If you do have metric, look at Swift (otherwise, yeah, Eibachs are great...and a good value (not very expensive, especialliy compared to the swifts)

I have 280 in the front (9in long, 60cmID) and 224 in the rear (10in long, 70mm ID). The fronts are great, but something about the rears is slightly off....I can't get them set as high as I'd like (I'm at the max now w/o the springs binding at full compression)...so I don't know if the rate is off, or if I got them too short, or what. But that pickyness aside, the ride is great on the street and off road. I rarely bottom out now, compared to stock, or even the original bilstein springs, which were much shorter, but 400/300 rates.

but for a wagon (heavier rear end) I'd suggest go a little longer if you can fit them on. Maybe 12 inches? (although, swift doesn't make 12in long springs)

good luck.....

[I Like It Sideways]

^^^ Good point. Since I went with their coil sleeves, I was limited to a 2.5" ID.

[BlackParis]

^^^ Good point. Since I went with their coil sleeves, I was limited to a 2.5" ID.

The grond control perches do fit the AGX... I have a set of perches on mine, I cant get them off they have been on soo long..

[I Like It Sideways]

Thats what I have :) AGX's + GC sleeves and springs.
I had to actually grind down part of the rear struts so the sleeve would fit over. But bc of that, they can no longer be disassembled. Not that I would anyways.

[strat]

next question... anybody give me an idea what kind of money i'd be looking at for swifts? also, what length would be ideal?

i've read on here that i want to be in the low 200's on the spring rate (or 4-5k)

[UP2MTNS]

next question... anybody give me an idea what kind of money i'd be looking at for swifts? also, what length would be ideal?

i've read on here that i want to be in the low 200's on the spring rate (or 4-5k)

I think all 4 of mine were around $380.

I went with 9" front (could have gone with 10")

and 10" in the rear....wish I went with 12"

[T-Heineken]

So do I just call up the generic Eibach phone number and tell them I want to order custom springs? Or can I find some 12" Eibachs somewhere? And will the customs leads to lots of extra cost?

[UP2MTNS]

So do I just call up the generic E
ibach phone number and tell them I want to order custom springs? Or can I find some 12" Eibachs somewhere? And will the customs leads to lots of extra cost?

http://www.eshocks.com/hyp_make.asp?Manf=Bilstein

this website has some great stuff on figuring out spring length, rates, etc.

http://www.swayaway.com/calculators/swayawayCalc.php

[BlackParis]

http://www.eshocks.com/hyp_make.asp?Manf=Bilstein




Oo... thanx for the linky!

I need new springs and struts for the Acura...

They have a good price on Bilstien 5150s too! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: 6$ cheaper than ebay!

[T-Heineken]

Okay, so regarding size on the AGX struts, I've search for what sizes will fit, but can't find any specs. Will 2.0" - 3.5" fit on the struts? I know the 2.5" would only fit on those ground control IDs, should I just get the 2.5s to be safe?
Damn my lack of knowledge...

[UP2MTNS]

Okay, so regarding size on the AGX struts, I've search for what sizes will fit, but can't find any specs. Will 2.0" - 3.5" fit on the struts? I know the 2.5" would only fit on those ground control IDs, should I just get the 2.5s to be safe?
Damn my lack of knowledge...

i can't help you there.....I have coilovers. All I do know, is you need to find out, cause even if you're off by a little bit, they just won't work right.

[bfrancis827]

Does anyone know anything about the Tein HG setup?

[BlackParis]

Does anyone know anything about the Tein HG setup?


Tien tech specs suck... (might be able to email them for more.. ie Spring length, strut length, piston width, valving, etc...)

but heres what I found..

Front:
250lb/in
-0.02 inches (highest setting, from stock)
-1.18 inches (lowest setting)

Rear:
200lb/in
+0.59 inches (highest)
-0.04 inches (lowest)


sounds ok.. BUT I am sure you can do better for less ;) lowest price I found was 2200$!

[T-Heineken]

Sorry to bring up an old thread, but I'm finally ready to buy some springs...

But what ID of spring do i need? I Like It Sideways was limited to a 2.5" ID because of the coil sleeves, but I'm just throwing these one some AGXs without the coil over sleeve....going to buy from eshocks...and the 2.5"s have the best selection of lengths and rates, but the stock springs look to be at least a 4.0" ID....soo....HELP?!

edit: these are going on an 04' wagon...looking at some eibachs

[UP2MTNS]

Sorry to bring up an old thread, but I'm finally ready to buy some springs...

But what ID of spring do i need? I Like It Sideways was limited to a 2.5" ID because of the coil sleeves, but I'm just throwing these one some AGXs without the coil over sleeve....going to buy from eshocks...and the 2.5"s have the best selection of lengths and rates, but the stock springs look to be at least a 4.0" ID....soo....HELP?!

edit: these are going on an 04' wagon...looking at some eibachs

I dunno....you may have to pull one off and measure it.

or call AGX, or see if their website has specs somewhere you can look up and/or download.

[BlackParis]

you will need some kind of sleeve... otherwise you will get alot of clunking... the stock spring perch isnt completely level, and the spring wont be centered on the strut...

[ten80]

Or you could buy the Tokico/ 12" Ground control spring I have for sale here: http://www.dirtyimpreza.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2862

but if that doesn't float your boat, I documented the installation process for 10 and 12" springs on Tokico struts (same process as OEM and KYB), here:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1216901

With a little ingenuity, you can fit 10" front and 12" rear springs. I fit 12" front by lowering the spring perches by 2". As they guys say above, you want at least 10" springs. I felt that 200/185 spring rates were great on adjustable struts with the damping set as high as possible without compromising small bump sensitivity.

[T-Heineken]

Wait....are the GC sleeves $400 for all four sleeves? I think I was retarded and thought they were $400 a piece...but maybe that's right...

ten80 - I would be interested in your setup if I didn't already have some AGXs lying around...so good luck with the sale

[ten80]

GC sleeves, springs, and upper/lower perches are $360-400ish. Call them up if you place an order and tell them you have a subaru and need sleeves and whichever springs you choose. Their website doesn't offer the option to create a package that would meet your needs. I suggest getting the correct springs off the bat because they are expensive at $59.99 a pop.

[anaonbd]

ok, i'll post here too.. where in CO?

[T-Heineken]

Bah! The longest spring I can get on the sleeves from GC is a 9" spring!

Any idea what the resell value of four 9" eibach springs would be (can order any rate)?

Would it be worth it to replace them will some custom ordered Eibach springs, or should I just look into a different setup (koni)?

[ten80]

Stay away from Koni inserts if you are going to be driving in the dirt. They are not intended for rough terrain and have been known to blow out in these conditions. This may be because of the rather small oil volume, likely causing higher internal pressures, and reduced travel.

Why can you only fit 9" springs? I've put 10" springs on stock wrx front struts and fit 12" springs in the rear by cutting off the cup that holds up the shock boots on the rear 04-07 tophats. I'd be willing to sell my springs separate from my struts or perhaps trade for your 9" springs.

[T-Heineken]

I know I can fit bigger springs on the GCs, the sad part is that GC won't sell the sleeves with a larger spring. So...I'm planning on 10" for the front and 12" for the rear, but I would have to buy those separately, and then I would have four 9" springs that came with the GCs. If interested in the trade (I assume to just sell with the setup that you're selling), what spring rates would you be interested in?

Also, Is it easy to cut off the part from the tophats you're talking about?

[ten80]

Oh, I see your problem.

GC WILL sell you sleeves, perches, and the spring length of your choice, but you have to call them and specifically ask for the springs you want. I was suggesting that you could buy my 12" springs for a reasonable price, then order the sleeves and perches from GC. They do sell all the parts separately. I PM'd you the link to my documentation of how to install 12" springs, but here it is for others to see: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1216901

cheers,
christophe

[T-Heineken]

I asked for Mark, but he was gone, so I talked to Jay (I think). He said I could only by 9" or smaller springs from them. I asked if they would sell me just the sleeve and perches without springs, but he said that they could not....was it Mark that specifically told you that they sell the parts separately, or how did you find that out?

[ten80]

that's really odd. I bought springs, perches, and tubes from them with 10" springs, then later ordered 12" springs and some new threaded tubes. I'm not certain what the problem is, so try to get a hold of Mark and explain to him what you are intending to do. If he can't help you, I might be interested in 300/250lbs/in 9" springs
in exchange for my 12" 200/185lbs springs. I'd be happy to pay shipping for both sets.

[T-Heineken]

So I talked to Mark and they DO NOT sell parts. He directed me to colemanracing.com though which allows to buy products separately, such as sleeves with perches for $42/set.
They offer sleeve lengths of 5, 7, and 8"....how long are the GC sleeves?

[ten80]

I guess that Mark was nice to me, maybe because I was perhaps the first to install GC sleeves on Tokico D-specs and I had to send him a lot of measurements.

5" sleeves are more than long enough for front struts and the rear struts use around 2". You can cut them to length.

[T-Heineken]

Alright. finally got the coleman sleeves...just need to cut the sleeves to get the cap back on the strut. One thing....I've never actually seen the top hat. The folks at GC said that this was basically their exact setup...but the upper spring seat is WAY different.
Will the upper spring mount be okay with the top hat or will I yet again need to search for another option?



http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2004/2279301100_bab81240e0.jpg?v=0

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2047/2278511051_ef26da69a6.jpg?v=0

[ten80]

Hey, here are the tophats I have for the front (center pair) and rear (outside pair):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v687/ski1234/GC3.jpg
I think yours will work if the slot is wide enough to accommodate the strut piston (~22mm). This is necessary so that the pistons "shoulder" puts pressure on the center of the tophat bearing rather than the aluminum spring seat. I can take measurements on mine if you like.

Keep in mind that the "hat" style spring perch (rather than my rear "doughnut" stule) should also work for modified rear 04+ tophats as long as the center of the "hat" distributes weight to the center of the metal insert in the rear tophats. Use of a washer might not be a bad idea.

[T-Heineken]

They actually rest on the wider part of the piston...
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2237/2281325344_ff7b20975a.jpg?v=0

hmmmm so now I need to find a way around this part? Damn!!!

[ten80]

I'll double check when I get home. I'm tired and might be spewing incoherent jiberish. I'm certain that an oreo (or ten) would put me right :)

[T-Heineken]

I'll double check when I get home. I'm tired and might be spewing incoherent jiberish. I'm certain that an oreo (or ten) would put me right :)

I know what you mean...yay for Costco!!

[ten80]

Yerp, the spring tops must have a hole large enough for the pistons to fit through. I would have checked earlier, but it was snowing and I had to do some skiing :)