New to Rally Scene, Several Questions

[RDFA]

Hi there Dirty Impreza!

So, like the title says. I am interested in competing in Rally America. First, a little intro. Then some questions :mrgreen:

I am a big subi fan and recently attended some rally-x's. I loved doing it in the dirt, but was left craving more than a bunch of 60 second laps in a field.

I plan on doing a ground up rally car build to compete in Rally America as a Novice driver. (For the record, I am not a noob who wants to run a 400HP car into trees, I understand that I will be running an older, slower car. I don't care! I just want to get started!!) I have read and reread the Rally America rulebook and have a pretty good understanding of the contents. But I am left with a couple of questions.

1) As a novice driver, am I allowed to run an AWD car? I know it must be N/A, but I thought I read somewhere in a forum that novice drivers can only run 2WD cars. But I could not find anything in the rulebook.

2) I cannot really seem to find a "flow chart" for getting prepared for Rally America, in terms of the car itself and the driver and team. It would be really useful if the site had one, or if we could compile one in this thread. What I mean is, in what order should events happen? Or is there lots of wiggle room?

My Scenario: I have bought a car. I plan on doing a complete tear down and having a cage professionally installed. At what point does the car get inspected and logbooked? After the cage? Before everything else is installed?

What happens after the car is inspected? Where do I get the car inspected? Should I have the inspectors meet with the cage constructor prior to installation so everyone is on the same page?

What is the next step after the car is logbooked?

******************
I know a lot of people will tell me to go the 'Just buy a complete 2WD rally car" route. But I am fairly well versed in Subarus and prefer to learn trial-by-fire :mrgreen:

I bought a 5spd GC that I drove 200 miles home without a hiccup for $200. So I would say I am well ahead in terms of "build v buy".

Thanks for all help. I will probably think of a lot more questions, but for now this is good.

[thewizard]

Depending on the scrutineer the logbook will at least require cage, seats and harnesses (some not so interested in the seats/belts itself but the mounting of them) I would strongly suggest you stay in touch with your local scrutineer. Some scrutineers require a bunch more for logbook issuing. Also make sure you read the rules well and keep your eyes open while the cage is being built. The logbook is the racing history of the car and shows that it is competition legal. This however does not guarantee you being accepted to compete at every event. The scrutineer can object to anything if he finds it is unsafe. You will also have to have all the lights, signals, horn etc working. Rally-America has a scrutineer check list on their site. Anders (The Nasa East Guy!) distributes a bunch of useful lists etc.. during the Novice Orientation at Nasa events.

You are not allowed to run a turbo AWD car (unless you get a waiver) in Rally America but are allowed to do so at NASA events. You will need 18 coefficients to run RA events. Read up on both set of rules.
Read the stickies on Specialstage.com.

Where are you located?
Feel free to ask more questions

Oscar

[RDFA]

Thanks wizard. How do I find out who/where my local scrutineer is?

Is it possible to have a car compete in two different venues? (RA or NASA)

I am located in Cleveland OH. The rally scene does not exist here but I do not care.

[thewizard]

scrutineers and contact info are usually available on the sanctioning bodies website. Yes, you may compete at either organizations events no matter who issued the logbook. Again, a logbook does not guarantee you acceptance. You will not be able to compete at RA without obtaining the required coefficients (these could be NASA coeffs) in an AWD car.

Not much in OH but there is a big crowd in Michigan ;)

[UP2MTNS]

not exactly what you asked for, but this helps:
http://www.dirtyimpreza.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5388

[Bubba02sti]

You will not be able to compete at RA without obtaining the required coefficients (these could be NASA coeffs) in an AWD car.



WRONG

you can compete in the open light class in RA in an AWD platform... you are not required to start off in a 2wd car anymore... however until you get your points you cannot run a turbo'd car for RA... NASA will let you run a turbo'd car but i think its clear that you stated you arn't going to be running one...

open light is a very competitive class so just be prepared to not do very well (im not saying you wont)...

get on specialstage.com every year most scrutineers will hold a group inspection for the season(im not saying they do these in your area but they do them here in colorado)... there you can get your car log booked... THE CAR DOES HAVE TO RUN AND SEAT BELTS THAT ARE CURRENT ARE REQUIRED so basicly take your car and gut the piss out of it... i mean everything from the last bit of sound deadening to the motor and tranny... take it to a trusted fabricator with the acceptable cage designs from the ra site and when you get it back put it together do your paint or what ever just make sure that all switches safety equipment lights are working and the body pannels are there... also on the ra site is a way for you to go and get in contact with someone to come log book your car if you missed the group inspection... make sure when your getting your car logged that you don't forget the little things either... like turn lamps reverse lights cage paddings is ziptied... you would be surprised at the little things that get over looked and cause your car not to pass inspection...one of the biggest things though is the welds for the cage... make sure that there arn't any pin holes or cracks in them your car will be turned away at the first sight of a ****ty weld... also pay close attention to your gussets... one other good thing to have also is your suit hans helmet gloves underwear and shoes... that way you can get them inspected as well... but just becasue your car gets logged doesn't mean you can compete... you will still need to pass tech at the rally... its kinda similar as in rallyX but it goes a hole lot more into detail...

as far as the events go... its pretty much what ever you can make it too... but don't worry you wont have to compete in just RA... look around at other rally series as well... like NASA CRS or things in your area... but if you build your car to RA spec then there isn't a problem in getting your car into any of the events across the rally scene... but remember you only get RA points for RA events... if you race in a non ra event then that doesn't count towards your coeffs... good luck and remember to keep us posted on your build...

not exactly what you asked for, but this helps:
http://www.dirtyimpreza.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5388
make sure to read this... you will get alot of good info on what needs to be done...

rubber side somewhat down my friend:rally-driver:

[thewizard]

WRONG

you can compete in the open light class in RA in an AWD platform... you are not required to start off in a 2wd car anymore... however until you get your points you cannot run a turbo'd car for RA... NASA will let you run a turbo'd car but i think its clear that you stated you arn't going to be running one...

open light is a very competitive class so just be prepared to not do very well (im not saying you wont)...


The original post states an AWD turbo so did my previous post. There never was a requirement for beginners to start with 2wd (there was talk of it) as non turbo AWD was always allowed.
Open Light has the potential of being competitive but currently you are almost guaranteed a podium finish ;)

[RDFA]

Thanks for all the help. I am less concerned with winning as I am with getting the car prepared and getting lots of seat time and learning better technique.

I will keep a build thread posted once that ball starts rolling. I already have some things lined up:

-el cheapo AWD manual GC in rally worthy condition
-Garage to wrench all winter
-Local Machine shop
-Local body shop
-friends in the decal biz
-Roll Cage fabber lined up
-My friends who have agreed to help me with this foolish endeavor
-and...... cross your fingers...... a possible sponsor to set this whole thing in motion, granted I will do it myself if I have to

[Bubba02sti]

The original post states an AWD turbo so did my previous post. There never was a requirement for beginners to start with 2wd (there was talk of it) as non turbo AWD was always allowed.
Open Light has the potential of being competitive but currently you are almost guaranteed a podium finish ;)

in 2006 i had to get a waiver to run an NA AWD talon for the PPIHC... so yes beginners HAD to run a 2wd car for their first season... and i DO NOT SEE anywhere in his post about him mentioning that he wants to run an turbo'd car... go read it again...
(For the record, I am not a noob who wants to run a 400HP car into trees, I understand that I will be running an older, slower car. I don't care! I just want to get started!!)

Thanks for all the help. I am less concerned with winning as I am with getting the car prepared and getting lots of seat time and learning better technique.

I will keep a build thread posted once that ball starts rolling. I already have some things lined up:

-el cheapo AWD manual GC in rally worthy condition
-Garage to wrench all winter
-Local Machine shop
-Local body shop
-friends in the decal biz
-Roll Cage fabber lined up
-My friends who have agreed to help me with this foolish endeavor
-and...... cross your fingers...... a possible sponsor to set this whole thing in motion, granted I will do it myself if I have to

sounds like a good start to me... one thing to make sure to ask the fabricator is "have you ever built a cage that has been through a 100 mph crash" if the answer is yes ask him "were they hurt if so how bad or did they walk away" thats just me though... personally i will never trust someone who has/hasn't built a cage for a car with out at least a couple of them being in crashes and the occupants being "ok" (as in they weren't seriously hurt but preferably walked away) i can deal with bumps and scratches... getting your car log booked isnt as scary or as hard as it sounds though... sponsors can be a big help too... but let them know that it is your car not theirs... some will try to take over the car just because they give you a break on parts... so just pay attention to the details and before you know it you will be out there running through a forest at 10 past prairie dogging...

[RDFA]

in 2006 i had to get a waiver to run an NA AWD talon for the PPIHC... so yes beginners HAD to run a 2wd car for their first season...

Well, I have not read anything (at least in the rulebook) that states that a Novice driver must run a 2WD car.

Another question popped into my head:

When the car is getting inspected by a scrutineer the following is all to be present, correct?:
-Running car with all lamps, acc, horn etc working
-Approved cage
-Mounted seats with harnesses
-All safety gear (HANS device, helmet, suit, etc...)

But, what if I do not have a codriver when the car is inspected, thus no codriver gear for him to inspect? Do I pass if everything else checks out? Do I need to get reinspected when I find one?

Thanks for all help so far!!!!!

[Bubba02sti]

your going to hear the term the rules are they way you interpet them alot...

the hans suit helmet etc is just good to have when your there... they are going to double check it at tech anyway.. it is not needed at the time of getting the car logged... but it gives them the comfort of knowing that you are ready to start a rally...

[RDFA]

your going to hear the term the rules are they way you interpet them alot...

Arg. Can anyone give a definite 100% answer if a novice is allowed to run a N/A AWD car? Not that I don't trust your opinion Bubba02sti. I just want to be sure I can run my scooby, otherwise I will have to...:machinegunleft:

Or... more likely.... just give RA a call and find out first hand.

[409industries]

The original post states an AWD turbo so did my previous post. There never was a requirement for beginners to start with 2wd (there was talk of it) as non turbo AWD was always allowed.


I don't think this is entirely true. Back when i started my rally build, the multiplier factor of having AWD put the displacement "cost" of a N/A 2.5RS too high for a novice driver. Keep in mind though this was before Open Light had officially been adopted as a class by Rally America.

Want my advice? Build whatever car your heart desires (within your budget of course) and run some NASA events to get some experience under your belt. They don't have the novice rule, and its awesome. :guitarist:

There is nothing that bothers me more than people that are gung-ho on a rally build but then go nuts on some ridiculous turbo setup being power hungry and run out of money before they can ever actually race.


Or... more likely.... just give RA a call and find out first hand.

Call RA and see if you can talk to Mike Hurst. He will set you straight. I talked to him about my cage before building and he was happy to chat.

[Jard]

You can run Open Light as a novice. That's part of the reason Open Light was created.

You do not need a suit, helmet, and HANS to get a car logbooked. You will need to present this gear at tech (for both you and co-driver) when you go to compete in your first event (and at every event).

Open Light is a fun car to race. J. Smith and I have done really well this year in his OL car with some overall podiums at NASA events.

[Jard]

What year GC did you buy? Which motor?

I have a 2.2 with 4.11 gears in my rallycross car and it's entertaining. J. has a 2.5 and 4.44 gears in the rally car, even more fun but more $$$$.

[Jard]

Rally America rules available here:
http://rally-america.com/rules.php

Page 27/114
C. Novice and Provisional Driver License Requirements
1. All initial Rally Driver License applicants will be issued a Novice
Drivers License.
a. The Novice Driver’s progress will be tracked by Rally America.
b. Any driver with significant previous automobile racing experience
may, at this point, apply for an unrestricted rally license by
attaching a complete race experience resume to the license
application. The application will require the endorsement of a
steward and the approval of Rally America.
2. A Novice Drivers License will restrict a driver to compete only in a
Group 2, Production or Open Light Class car.
3. Each Novice Driver competing in an event must attend the Novice
Drivers Class held prior to that event.
4. An approved performance rally school will be credit for up to 4
coefficients, with approval of the chief instructor, but only one school
may be applied to any license level requirement.
...

[Jard]

if you race in a non ra event then that doesn't count towards your coeffs...

To quote you...

WRONG

[sniper1rfa]

Well, I have not read anything (at least in the rulebook) that states th

Arg. Can anyone give a definite 100% answer if a novice is allowed to run a N/A AWD car?


Until Open Light was created, you had to start in a 2wd car. Now you may start in AWD as long as it's naturally aspirated and less than 2.65 liters. The .15L over a regular 2.5L subaru is there to allow for overboring to refresh a used motor.

[RDFA]

What year GC did you buy? Which motor?

It is a 97 in RBP Brighton (which mean 1.8L FTW). Purdy imo, but it will probably b repainted to conform to the sponsors color scheme. It will probably end up being a dark emerald green with white decals or vice versa.

Oh yea, the motor: Like I said, it has the 1.8 but I am actually putting the 2.5 from my lego into it. Its a faulty phase I (from a 97 LGT) but it'll probably prove more useful than the 1.8. I have already pulled it from the legacy and broken down. I had the heads resurfaced, and new valve stem seals and guides installed. I have the reissued gaskets from Subaru and a bunch of other stuff. So it should be good to go.

I don't know what gears I have. I don't know how to find out other than open the diff up when I get it out of the car, right?

[Jard]

It is a 97 in RBP Brighton (which mean 1.8L FTW). Purdy imo, but it will probably b repainted to conform to the sponsors color scheme. It will probably end up being a dark emerald green with white decals or vice versa.

Oh yea, the motor: Like I said, it has the 1.8 but I am actually putting the 2.5 from my lego into it. Its a faulty phase I (from a 97 LGT) but it'll probably prove more useful than the 1.8. I have already pulled it from the legacy and broken down. I had the heads resurfaced, and new valve stem seals and guides installed. I have the reissued gaskets from Subaru and a bunch of other stuff. So it should be good to go.

I don't know what gears I have. I don't know how to find out other than open the diff up when I get it out of the car, right?

What do you plan to do with engine management to run the 2.5?

If you look at your transmission, there should be a code on it. It starts with TY.... (then a bunch of numbers and letters).
Look here: http://northursalia.com/techdocs/trannychart/trannychart.pdf

[RDFA]

I'll go look at the transmission and look it up.

Not sure yet with engine management. I did some scouting on NASIOC and several people commented that the 1.8 ECU would do fine. What do you suggest I do. I would like to just drag the ECU outta the lego and put it into the GC. But I know nothing of harnesses or stuff of that nature. Could I get the 1.8 ecu reflashed?

[Jard]

I get confused on all the different EJ25 variations. I know that you want to find a EJ25D for the easiest swap into a 1.8 car because it will run okay off the 1.8 ECU.

I just don't know which cars the EJ25D came in. I think that '97 Legacy could be one of them...

My car has a '95 Legacy 2.2 L motor running off the '95 Impreza 1.8 ECU. It runs great!

I just had to swap the 1.8 intake manifold onto the 2.2 longblock.

[RDFA]

Yea, I am in luck, its the EJ25D.

New question: Are you allowed to display a CEL in NASA or RA? -->Granted it operates fine with no leaks or anything major.

[Jard]

Yea, I am in luck, its the EJ25D.

New question: Are you allowed to display a CEL in NASA or RA? -->Granted it operates fine with no leaks or anything major.

Absolutely, they don't care about that!

The car needs to be road legal though, meaning it needs to pass inspection and have tags for whatever locality you have it registered in...

[Jard]

Get up with these guys:
http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/555-Rally-Sport/125155847534623?v=info

The 555 Rally Sport team...

The driver's name is Pete Hascher and he's a really nice guy. I believe they are in Cleveland as well. We raced against them at Black River Stages this year.

You need to start building your network as soon as possible.

[RDFA]

So here is my tranny sticker: TY752VT5AA

Which means it is the 3.90 :-(

But I really don't care at this point. For now, I just want the 2.5L of fury and a sweet suspension set up.

I didn't see anything about 555 being in Cleveland. But maybe they are. There are no trails around here though.

[Bubba02sti]

To quote you...

WRONG

how am i wrong i have asked this question before when i was getting robs car ready and everyone was telling me that they wont count... ie you race a NASA event you don't get any points towards RA coeff's

[Jard]

You don't earn RA coefficients but you do earn coefficients. One dude ran Rally NY events in a turbo AWD and then got the waiver to run turbo AWD at NEFR without running any other RA events.

[UP2MTNS]

how am i wrong i have asked this question before when i was getting robs car ready and everyone was telling me that they wont count... ie you race a NASA event you don't get any points towards RA coeff's

well, they do. Just like a rally school counts for 1 coefficient by either sanctioning body. I believe TO's rally school counts for even more since its multi-day.

I only ran 2 NASA events, but got a waiver to run RA open class for Seed 9 last year....I still didn't have 18 coeff's when I ran Desert Storm (also RA), but my waiver was/is still in effect.

Technically, as a driver, I don't think I have 18 coeff's still as I haven't actually finished enough events. (DNF'd at 2 events this year)

[Bubba02sti]

You don't earn RA coefficients but you do earn coefficients. One dude ran Rally NY events in a turbo AWD and then got the waiver to run turbo AWD at NEFR without running any other RA events.

ok i guess i was just confused on it... i was under the assumption that you dont get any coeffs for the RA events...


well, they do. Just like a rally school counts for 1 coefficient by either sanctioning body. I believe TO's rally school counts for even more since its multi-day.

I only ran 2 NASA events, but got a waiver to run RA open class for Seed 9 last year....I still didn't have 18 coeff's when I ran Desert Storm (also RA), but my waiver was/is still in effect.

Technically, as a driver, I don't think I have 18 coeff's still as I haven't actually finished enough events. (DNF'd at 2 events this year)

i know the rally schools count... but i guess i was unclear about the whole thing... so lets see if i understand this completely now... if you race other events such as NASA and CRS in a turbo'd car you may qualify for a RA waiver... but the points in those events arnt RA points but can count? :shocked:

I do know that you can run an AWD car now though...

[UP2MTNS]

i know the rally schools count... but i guess i was unclear about the whole thing... so lets see if i understand this completely now... if you race other events such as NASA and CRS in a turbo'd car you may qualify for a RA waiver... but the points in those events arnt RA points but can count? :shocked:



Sorry, I was unclear. FACT: You can run NASA events and that will get you coeff's towards your RA license that will allow you to run an AWD turbo'd car when you get 18 of them.

The 'waiver' is a one-off thing and is not guaranteed....you have to write a letter to RA (now 'RallyCar') and JB Niday and Mike Hurst review your situation/experience and they make a one-off judgment call.

[Bubba02sti]

:thumbsup:

[KevinWelker]

Also, there really are no such thing as "coefficients". Meaning there is no place that keeps track of these coefficients. You are responisble to tally them up and present them to RA as evidence that you meet their criteria.

Points are earned in a championship series like any other racing series. RA points don't transfer to NASA, CRS, CARS, USRC etc etc. However many rallys are cross listed events. For example, Prescott rally was a USRC event, also a CRS event, so I scored points in the USRC series as well as the CRS series.

Once you get doing it, it all makes sense. Don't try too hard to wrap your head around all the details up front, cause quite frankly they don't matter much. Get out on stage and start having fun, the rest will work itself out, there are tons of people who will help you along the way.

[UP2MTNS]

Also, there really are no such thing as "coefficients". Meaning there is no place that keeps track of these coefficients. You are responisble to tally them up and present them to RA as evidence that you meet their criteria.



well, I'd disagree with you on the 'coeff points' thing. Events are given a 'coeff rating' based on the overall length, and by completing an event (regardless of how you finish) you then get those 'coeff points' that you are responsible for tracking and that goes towards your '18 coeff'.

An example is Prescott rally...broken into 2 days of racing. Friday night is shorter, and is a C2. Saturday is longer and is a C3. The entire rally together is 5 coff points. If the organizers split up the two days and you rally just one day or the other, then you only get the points assigned to that day.

So if/when you hear about organizers talking about a 'C3 event' or " I won't tow 500 miles for just a C1", then you know what they mean. A short rally sprint, for example, is typically a coefficient 1 event.

To get the coeff points you MUST finish. If you crash on the last 1/10 mile of the last stage, then you get squat.

But to kevin's point....once you get your 18 coeff', it doesn't really matter after that (or if you never plan on running an RA event).


And yes, 'series' or 'championship' points are completely different.

[KevinWelker]

I meant "coefficient points" related and tracked to a specific driver the way series points are. Yep, rallys are assigned coefficients based on their length. But there is no secret database that keeps track of how many rally coefficients you've completed, much to the confusion of many rally newbs. So, unless someone only has access to a turbo AWD car those magic coefficient numbers mean nothing to a driver and only describe the rally itself.

Bottom line is that newbs should pay zero attention to this and concentrate on getting out on stage. If they insist on a turbo AWD car they need to go to anything BUT RA events until they finish half a dozen or so rallys, then they can give their rally business to anyone they choose, if they and their bank accounts last that long.

[RDFA]

Well, thanks to everyone. This certainly is a useful post. Lots of info!!

Well, I met with a potential sponsor last night. I thought my presentation went very well. They expressed a lot of interest in the idea. So by Sunday, I will know whether or not they will sign on as a sponsor.

In either case, I will be starting a build log hopefully soon!

[Jard]

Bottom line is that newbs should pay zero attention to this and concentrate on getting out on stage.

Someone should embroider this on a throw pillow.

My favorite event is a NASA event - Black River Stages. My 2nd favorite event is a RA event - New England Forest Rally.

I also ran a CARS event this year. Roads were epic (and I hate that word), too bad we didn't see more of them at speed.

Saying something like "I'm building a car to just compete in RA" is kind of short-sighted. There are cool things about finishing 15th in the RA regional just to say you finished and you raced with Travis Pastrana, but there are also cool things about going to smaller events with amazing roads.

[RDFA]

Yea, I know I said RA, but I was just throwing an organization out there.

I want to compete in as many as possible.