I need some pro opinions on a car build.

[kemikalembalance]

A couple of friends and I are going to try some southwest stage rally's and need some opinions.

We are most likely going to use a 1995 Impreza 2-door.
We also can use a 2006 Impreza 2.5I.

We are pretty set on going with a turbo motor because, well, its faster :headbang:. I have ran my 06 STI though the desert so I am not unfamiliar with the speed but dont have the seat time as others.

An N/A motor is not out but we need to know what power classes there are.

I was told that there is basicly only two turbo classes :
factory production=fast
open=UBER fast
Or how I understood it, if I have 230hp on the rocks, Ill bee racing against cars with 330hp on the rocks.

So if we go with forced induction, should we get a motor that puts 300 on the ground to be competitive?

Is there a limit on torque?

I have the rule book from Rally America but cant translate half of it into redneck. And that doesn't say much for me.

Thanks for the help...Eric.

[carl]

if you are running Rally America events, as a novice you cannot start in an awd turbo car. You are restricted to Group 2, Production and Open Light. luckily you also have NASA sanctioned events out there which will let you run any class as a noob.

You really need to learn the rulebook for whatever sanctioning body (bodies) you are planning to race in. They may seem confusing but there really isn't much too them.

[409industries]

Also consider cost. If you're only considering RA events it would break down like this:

Production = $
Open Light = $$
Super Production = $$$$
Open = $$$$$$

It sucks to see people start open class builds only to give up halfway through because they finally realize how expensive it is to be competitive in that realm (or to even finish the build to enter a race).

Consider running NASA events first as they don't have the novice restriction on open class cars. The RA rule is there for a good reason though, to keep inexperienced drivers out of very fast cars so when there's mishaps the likelyhood of injury is less.

One other avenue to think about is running the 95 Impreza as-is (NA motor) getting experience in a slower car, then doing an STi swap later down the road when you're ready to go into Open class. This is the mindset i am working in. Not to mention, replacement parts for GC imprezas are abundant and much cheaper overall than GD's.

When you're ripping through tree-lined roads and on the edge of exposures, you don't need a ton of power to have a thrilling drive.

[Bubba02sti]

perks of a 90's NA build
your local junk yard will have a couple parts cars for cheap
your not going to be limited to just NASA and SCCA rallyX events
easier to keep under control racing is whole lot different then sunday driving

down side
your not as fast as the turbo'd cars

You may consider buying a used rally car too... its alot cheaper... (read the cost of stage rally thread)

Make sure you have the time to work on the car... alot of parts will go out in just one or two rallies

[carl]

Yea do it as cheap as possible. Let's just say I've spent closer to $100,000 than I have $50,000 on rally stuff in the past 2 years.

do a budget open light build, you'll have a fun car and money left over to actually race (and the flexibility to do both RA and NASA events)

[carl]

down side
your not as fast as the turbo'd cars

this isn't really a downside and not necessarily true. you're racing the other cars in your class, overall is just something extra to brag about. Plus look at guys like duplessis - stomping awd turbo in his 2wd vw. There are plenty of lower powered cars that regularly place quite well

[Bubba02sti]

this isn't really a downside and not necessarily true. you're racing the other cars in your class, overall is just something extra to brag about. Plus look at guys like duplessis - stomping awd turbo in his 2wd vw. There are plenty of lower powered cars that regularly place quite well

very true... i was just leaning towards the fact of a trubo'd car having more power then an NA... it really does come down to the driver... I have seen NA cars beat several turbo'd cars though

[UP2MTNS]

doesn't matter if you have 450whp to the ground, it'll take you a while to be competitive. I am only putting 250-270wtq to the ground and I keep getting faster, which means my driving is getting better despite not having '3a00wtq'. I've done 4 events so far.


and no disrespect meant, but 90mph in the open desert and 90mph on a single track road with blind crests and corners, burms, large rocks and trees are two different leagues. I'm just sayin'....be careful, keep your expectations (and your driving) within limits.

your budget will really determine whether or not you can race a turbo'd car. I do think turbo's give you more options with power, etc....but again, its expensive.

Personally, at this point....I'm drooling for a better tranny with proper close ratio gears and good front/rear/center LSDs. All that power don't mean squat if you're coming into a corner that's too fast for 2nd, but bogging in 3rd.

[A1337STI]

from the start of your thread i can tell you care about being competitive, and i already know your region.

South West Rallies = California Rally Series, look at the schedule (http://www.californiarallyseries.com/Current/Schedule/rallies.aspx) There's 8 events 5 are Nasa .
now look at the Rules .. Unless you go Open 4, you can't build a car that's Maxed out to each rule set *insert my usual grumbling here*

So if i was a person who wanted to Compete with in a series , and my region was south west, my choice has been made for me (Yes there's an RA regional series as well, its the 3 of the 8 rallies we have) ...


So with that out of the way you are looking at CRS Rules-sets , the schedule and your budget. If you want to win a series you are going to have to attend about 2/3's of the events. just assume $5,000 for entry fees , hotel, towing. Again you want to be competitive so probably pile on 3,000 more on tires. ..

Still with us? cool. now figure out from there what you can afford to build with out cutting into the 8K above. If you have the money to go the open route then sure if you want to win rallies overall , that's a much better class to be in.

Turbo's are more expensive and more things can go wrong maybe say 3k more easily on your initial build up, and higher matainance costs. more tire and brake wear. lots more brake wear if you Brake spool (you should be doing this in a turbo car!) You'll want a spare turbo (but don't need) You may want better fire supression (motor) as well cause turboed cars catch fire more often.

I'de recommend you start with the 2.5I and race in CRS:PGT it will be more reliable which will help you build up seat time. you're car will still be "good" in the RA open light class as well (and have good resale value because of that)

I also think you are going to be very surprised how difficult it is to be fast (compared to the field) in a rally. i know my first rally was a real eye opener i came into the first timing control expecting to hear how fast i was, instead i was told i was 10 seconds over the bogie time. At the time i had driven fast (to me) on dirt roads, auto and rally crossed. I just completed my 9th rally same event that was my first. on 10 mile stages i was 90-120 seconds faster than when i started. That's how much i was holding my car back. Even kimi raikkonen was clearly holding his car back in his first handful of WRC events, and the guy is a fricken F1 champion. Expect the same to happen to you.

Its easier to 'get up to speed' in a slower car cause there's less car to hold back.
Also what burke said, final drives, and diffs are super helpful and can be a bigger factor in how fast your car is, then just an HP number. Especially once you are over 200 hp. alignment, tires, suspension is also super important (in that order) best suspension in the world on a car with 2 degree of positive camber in the front is going to be a last place setup...

also if you want to start off with a turbo then you HAVE to start off with nasa , which means there's 3 possible events off your calender in your first year. not a great way to build points / seat time.

so since you want to be competitive, its looking like the 2.5i is it. :)

now if you asked about wanting to learn at the fastest possible rate .......

[409industries]

Great thread so far guys....

[UP2MTNS]

Alex...you make a good point on 'strategy' for a car build and class and available events/series, etc. I know I didn't put that much thought into it...I just said, "I want to build an XYZ car and I'll compete in whatever class that puts me in."

however, just as a live data point, $5K/event, even for an open class car, is pretty high. I definitely don't spend close to that.



****, if someone gave me $5K/event...I bet I could do well enough in the RA National Series to at least get invited to the Xgames!

[subyspawn]

i think he meant for the year....you really think Alex spends $5k an event??? :rofl:

[Johnny5]

That would be a lot of gerlach or jerome hookers for $5k.

[REDrum]

We run PGT class in an 02 WRX and, based the past year of spend, we're costing just north of $100 a stage mile :headbang:

[A1337STI]

yeah i meant 5K a year on entries , fuel (towing and race car) but left out food (navi job) hehehe

ya and i tend to over think things...

[UP2MTNS]

We run PGT class in an 02 WRX and, based the past year of spend, we're costing just north of $100 a stage mile :headbang:

that also seems really expensive, unless that includes your original car build costs?

50 stage miles = $5,000?

Idaho is 160 miles this year.....$16,000!!??? ;)

[hoche]

$5K per National is on the low side, even if you're running a cheap-ass 25-year-old VW.

Trust me.

Eight new tires min per event, increased entry fees, notes, recce, time off work for everyone, flights, car rentals, hotel bills, food, blah blah blah.

And then there're things one doesn't even think about, like buying a set of mudders "just in case". Or snows. Replacing trailer tires. Fixing your truck's fuel pump which went tits up in the middle of Oklahoma...on a Sunday.

Overhauling your shocks regularly. Overhauling your heads after you broke your motor mounts and bashed the motor repeatedly against the hood/frame/ground. Replacing your bent right A-arm again because you have a tendency to shave things a little close on the co-driver's side. Putting on yet another muffler. Wheel bearings. Oil changes. Race fuel. On and on and on.



To the OP:
Horespower's the last thing you should be worried about. Seat time, good suspension, seat time, proper gearing, seat time, a reliable car, and seat time are all much higher priority. In fact, I'd recommend putting both of those Subarus on ice and buying someone's already-built 2WD rally beater and running that for a year or so.

[REDrum]

that also seems really expensive, unless that includes your original car build costs?


Last 16 months of rally spend:

Used PGT rally car
6 events
2 stuffs
3 days of seat time at TON
Trailer & load distributing hitch
Spares & supplies
Rear LSD
New seats
Safety gear for 2
Fresh paint
20 new tires
8 new wheels
Graphics
Tools/service gear/Ez-ups
Tons of maintnance/service pre/post events (all those little parts add up fast)
RA memberships for 2 years
Insurance & registration on rally car and trailer
Trailer tires
Haul costs
Hotel costs
Team shirts and jackets
Food for crew
Website url and hosting

..got the idea....?
All adds up [through the rear view mirror]: spend/miles = $117 per stage mile for Toltec Rally Team.
Granted lots of one time/capital investment cost, but people need to realize them if they are just getting started, they do exist. Rally is not "go buy or build a car and pay 500 bux entry fee for a weekend of fun"

For regional, we budget ~$2K for a 1 day C2/3 event and ~$3K for a two day event. Sometimes we under-run and sometimes we over-run. National guys will burn up 3X those numbers, top 5 teams will burn 5 to 8X those costs: not hard to for them to go >$200K a year. I'm willing to bet SRT rolls up a 7 figure bill from VTCar each year, that SOA gets to pay.

[Bubba02sti]

Last 16 months of rally spend:

Used PGT rally car
6 events
2 stuffs
3 days of seat time at TON
Trailer & load distributing hitch
Spares & supplies
Rear LSD
New seats
Safety gear for 2
Fresh paint
20 new tires
8 new wheels
Graphics
Tools/service gear/Ez-ups
Tons of maintnance/service pre/post events (all those little parts add up fast)
RA memberships for 2 years
Insurance & registration on rally car and trailer
Trailer tires (these should last a while)
Haul costs
Hotel costs <<not needed Come on man up and camp
Team shirts and jackets<<< going overboard
Food for crew<make them pay for their own
Website url and hostingagain not needed

..got the idea....?
All adds up [through the rear view mirror]: spend/miles = $117 per stage mile for Toltec Rally Team.
Granted lots of one time/capital investment cost, but people need to realize them if they are just getting started, they do exist. Rally is not "go buy or build a car and pay 500 bux entry fee for a weekend of fun"

For regional, we budget ~$2K for a 1 day C2/3 event and ~$3K for a two day event. Sometimes we under-run and sometimes we over-run. National guys will burn up 3X those numbers, top 5 teams will burn 5 to 8X those costs: not hard to for them to go >$200K a year. I'm willing to bet SRT rolls up a 7 figure bill from VTCar each year, that SOA gets to pay.


Edited... but just IMO there are alot of savings cutting some of that out... but you do have a very valid point and i see where your coming from... all the little things and tid bits add up quick

[subyspawn]

bubba....wait till you start towing a car....I went thru like 8 trailer tires last year alone....they all suck and costs add up

[UP2MTNS]

..got the idea....?


uh, I think so....I don't have an open class rally car or anything:jack:



For regional, we budget ~$2K for a 1 day C2/3 event and ~$3K for a two day event. Sometimes we under-run and sometimes we over-run. National guys will burn up 3X those numbers, top 5 teams will burn 5 to 8X those costs: not hard to for them to go >$200K a year. I'm willing to bet SRT rolls up a 7 figure bill from VTCar each year, that SOA gets to pay.this is more reasonable.....$3000/100 miles (C3 Event) = $30/stage mile

Sure, if you want to include fixed fees in there go ahead, but then its not really apples to apples if you want to compare to...well, anything or anyone, or even yourself year after year because the average cost of your HANS/car/cage/etc will constantly go down.

Plus, some people get to go to Tim O'Neils, some don't...some get 8 brand new Braid/TD rims, some just get 6 15" whatever rims they can find. Decisions like that are totally personal and budget driven.

I wasn't trying to say your numbers were wrong, I just wanted the new guys to know what the real cost of running an event is, no matter what car they choose to run. And by your original statement, w/o clarification, it looked like a 50 mile event was going to cost $5K.

[REDrum]

Edited... but just IMO there are alot of savings cutting some of that out...

Those items are relatively small costs of rally.

Treatment of your crew is paramount, if you cannot pay them and treat them well, at least treat them well. Most people I know respond well to food, drink, shirts, and warm hotel bed. YMMV...

LOL... So "should" rally tires...but they don't

[REDrum]

I wasn't trying to say your numbers were wrong, I just wanted the new guys to know what the real cost of running an event is, no matter what car they choose to run. And by your original statement, w/o clarification, it looked like a 50 mile event was going to cost $5K.

Its all in the accounting. We're running >100 bux a stage mile, and its a real # based on our accounting. I can be inaccuate and come up with a # much lower. With two years of amorization of "fixed" cost our stage mile may come come down, but it will never be <$20 per mile in an AWD car.

If people want to know how to rally a subie wicked dirt cheap talk to Randy Zimmer

[hoche]

bubba....wait till you start towing a car....I went thru like 8 trailer tires last year alone....they all suck and costs add up

This might be off topic, but that's a lot of trailer tires. Are you running bias plys? If so, get radials. My bias plys lasted about 10K. With the radials I've racked up over 25K and they're still alright.

Well, I had to replace one but that was because an axle bolt came loose and threw off the trailer's alignment for awhile.

[Bubba02sti]

bubba....wait till you start towing a car....I went thru like 8 trailer tires last year alone....they all suck and costs add up

use some 10 ply E range tires lol:rofl:

[subyspawn]

these were based off of the 3 different trailers we had to borrow last year, don't really get to pick the tires....all im saying is that trailer tires are part of the costs too

[carl]

these were based off of the 3 different trailers we had to borrow last year, don't really get to pick the tires....all im saying is that trailer tires are part of the costs too
yes they are. I destroyed 3 last year that couldn't be patched.

[A1337STI]

these were based off of the 3 different trailers we had to borrow last year, don't really get to pick the tires....all im saying is that trailer tires are part of the costs too

Yes they do ... when are you going to start driving to events ? :) hehehe J/K

Towing is a lot nicer , having done both, I'de opt to tow every time as long as i can/could afford it. Driving means turning a 400 mile rally into a 1600 mile rally but its all just extra transit stages... :shootsself:

[Anders Green]

Towing is a lot nicer , having done both, I'de opt to tow every time as long as i can/could afford it.
Well, sure. But saying you'll do something as long as there is plenty of money around doesn't make much of a statement. :eyebrows:

So, would you _choose_ to tow to one event and get a hotel or drive to three and camp, in the "I can't afford to tow to three and get hotels" case?

:)

Anders

[mavric]

Its all in the accounting. We're running >100 bux a stage mile, and its a real # based on our accounting. I can be inaccuate and come up with a # much lower. With two years of amorization of "fixed" cost our stage mile may come come down, but it will never be <$20 per mile in an AWD car.

If people want to know how to rally a subie wicked dirt cheap talk to Randy Zimmer

But you shouldn't be including the initial capital investment in your "it costs us X to run X miles". It is more of a, "we have run this many for this much so far". A more fair statement would be, we initially invested X to build the car, saftey equipment, trailer, etc. then it has cost us X per stage mine based on entry fees, repairs, fuel, lodging food, upkeep of gear, etc. Its two different costs right? Just being OCD and bored at work.

[A1337STI]

Anders I drive and camp when needed. I've raced in 9 rallies, I've only towed to 4 of those... I camped at Idaho last year and hitched hiked from park firme back to my camp site. ;-) Again towing (and having crew) is much nicer, cooler, but if it means skipping rallies than its not for me.

and so yes :rofl: the "when i have money" is a rather worthless statement ...

I'm also going to race a brand new model year STI with a back up shell when i have the money ... .. . .


stupid addicting rally ... may i have an other hit please ? :) just 1 more...


And ya mavric that's how i look at it cost wise too. I started keeping some totals gonig, and i have one excel for rally expenses and a 2nd one for upkeep , which includes items like new tires, upgrades, replacing a mud flap that got lost, etc. that way i know what is a fixed entry based cost (entry fee, hotel, camp site, lunchables, etc) and what's something that's upkeep / wanting to win related. (alignment, brand new tires, camera, etc)