2011 SCCA Rallycross Rule Change Discussion

[Usher]

The draft for the 2011 rallycross rules has been posted. If anyone has any input on the changes, post it in this thread: 2011 Rule change draft (http://www.sccabb.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=9153&PN=1)

There are a few minor class rule changes, and a couple rules are being simplified. The main changes are as follows:
Remove the tire size requirements from stock class.
Change the wheel offset requirement slightly for stock class.
Allow flywheel changes in prepared class.
Split M2 into MF and MR

[williaty]

Man, they're starting to move some costly mods into P.

[pomspeed]

williaty, I hope you've let your opinions be known. If you don't support the idea, let us know in that thread.

Brent

[williaty]

Nah, not an SCCA member, won't become an SCCA member, no need to influence their rulemaking :lol:

[pomspeed]

fair enough

[WAM]

Man, they're starting to move some costly mods into P.

Heh...and the current PA national champion drove a borrowed bone stock Sube with rally tires fitted. This ain't a money sport. No harm, no foul.

[LGT-FST]

Bone stock with out a brake change? The m class top runners were p legal. LOR

[WAM]

I don't want to speak for Max, but I think that's what he said. I think late WRX's can fit 15's right? Not the STi.

[omahasubaru]

I don't want to speak for Max, but I think that's what he said. I think late WRX's can fit 15's right? Not the STi.

correct.

[noisycricket]

Man, they're starting to move some costly mods into P.

IMO allowing alternate flywheels in Prepared is a cost saver. Have you priced out a dual-mass flywheel lately?

IIRC, replacing the clutch in a transverse 1.8t-engined VW product is $900-1200 unless you go aftermarket.

[williaty]

IMO allowing alternate flywheels in Prepared is a cost saver. Have you priced out a dual-mass flywheel lately?

IIRC, replacing the clutch in a transverse 1.8t-engined VW product is $900-1200 unless you go aftermarket.

You'll get people doing it for the performance benefit, not merely as maintenance. The rule ought to be "a flywheel within 1lb of stock" or something like that. Allows for slight variances between aftermarket parts but prevents people from spending close to a grand to get a lightweight flywheel and have it installed just for the performance benefit.

[noisycricket]

I have a 9lb flywheel. Stock is 26lb. Mind you, my entire rotating assembly up to that point weighs maybe 30-35lb.

I can't tell the difference on dirt and maaaybe can tell a difference on pavement. The largest difference I can see is that I needed to do funky things to the ignition timing to get it to idle reasonably well.

I don't see it as a real performance benefit for rallycross at all. I'd say that drag-style lightweight calipers and slot-vented solid rotors would be a greater benefit, since you get good stopping power for about the same weight as an OEM brake rotor (no caliper!) and that is already Prepared legal. But nobody's doing that, either.

[williaty]

Interesting. For me, doing a LWFW in my Impreza was a hell of an advantage for pretty much everything, including RX. Made it easier to launch, easier to shift, and easier to recover from bogging.

[Usher]

Allows for slight variances between aftermarket parts but prevents people from spending close to a grand to get a lightweight flywheel and have it installed just for the performance benefit.
I really don't think you'll see anyone spending that much money just to get a little bit more performance for rallycross. Except for stock class, I've never seen any rallycross car fully prepared to the limits of the rules. Even most of the modified class cars I see are daily drivers.

As was mentioned earlier, the lightweight flywheels will usually be put in because it's cheaper than replacing with stock, or because people were already changing the clutch anyway and it's only a couple hundred dollars more to replace the flywheel at the same time.

[LGT-FST]

key word most. Don't forget about us trailer queens. When it goes home on a trailer it doesn't matter if it is running. LOR :eek:

[noisycricket]

Shop around. I picked up an aluminum flywheel for an early WRX for $125 and ended up selling it for $60 since nobody would buy it from me...

My Mazda's aluminum unit came free with a core engine, so it's strictly a case of "it was there".

Or you could just get a front-drive VW. The stock flywheel is about 12lb and it's a simple machining operation to take it down to 8lb or so.

[Usher]

key word most. Don't forget about us trailer queens. When it goes home on a trailer it doesn't matter if it is running. LOR :eek:
But those people already have plenty of rules that let them spend way too much money on their car.:mrgreen: Allowing a flywheel change in prepared isn't going to add significant cost for them. Everybody else just tries to get the most bang for their buck.

[pomspeed]

Usher, make sure to comment about the flywheel proposal at sccabb. On DI, it's just personal opinion, but there is more needed points of view for the SCCA rules committee. Like you stated about Warrens comment, he's in Mod class. So if you're against the flywheel proposal, like Warrens oposed to cat deletes, let SCCA folks know it.

Brent

[noisycricket]

key word most. Don't forget about us trailer queens. When it goes home on a trailer it doesn't matter if it is running. LOR :eek:

Making a car strong enough to last through an event is a lot cheaper than buying a truck and a trailer, and a property with enough land to store said items.

[MarkA]

Man, they're starting to move some costly mods into P.

I'd rather see the cats go back on and the LSD's come off in P than allow any other mods....

But, it's hard for me to get worked up over class rules anymore when you get credible, respected people proposing stuff this ridiculous that covers entire events: http://www.sccabb.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=9171&PN=1 And if you're not worried about that probably ruining or shutting down 95% of all the RallyX sites out there, you're forgetting that the SCCA is a group that has previously issued four pages to tell people not to stand outside in the lightning: http://cms.scca.com/documents/Rally%20Rules/Lightning_Safety_Plan_%20Safety_Stewards_Informati on.pdf

The SCCA already has a place for overly-retentive people who need everything they do to be done under "quantitative guidelines" - it's called AutoCross...:waving:

[WAM]

I think you're overreacting Mark. If Ken means it to be a hard requirement resulting in event shut-down, I'll agree with you. But if reasonable, responsible and practical attention to course maintenance throughout the event is the goal, that's a good thing. I have to assume quantifying it is just meant as a guideline but in actual practice it would depend on site conditions and best intentions.

But then, I'm an autocrosser.

[Usher]

It's my understanding that most of what Ken is proposing are guidelines that the safety stewards are already supposed to be following. I don't have a problem with what he's saying as long as they are recommended guidelines and not hard rules.

[Usher]

I'd rather see the cats go back on and the LSD's come off in P than allow any other mods....
I agree with you here. In my experience, most prepared cars are already as fast as the modified cars. It would be nice to have more of a separation in performance there. That's also why I don't like the Street Modified class. I think if we added that class, we'd end up with three classes that are all running the same times, which I think is silly.

The main reason I proposed allowing flywheel changes is just because it's a common modification people do when changing their clutch and I don't think it has a significant performance benefit on a rallycross course.

[WAM]

That's also why I don't like the Street Modified class. I think if we added that class, we'd end up with three classes that are all running the same times, which I think is silly.

I have mixed feelings on Street Mod. I have a car that cannot run 15" rally tires without exhaustive mods. Even the rear brakes are too large for 15's and there are no downsize kits available. So Street Mod is a place where cars without rally tires can be competitive.

But some feel that larger snow tires can compete with rally tires. Sometimes this is proven by results, sometimes not. And like others, I'm concerned with class expansion unsupported by participation numbers. Orphan classes suck.

[Usher]

I don't think rally tires are that big of an advantage over the course of a season, but it may be a regional thing. In the Detroit Region we do about 10 events per year. Of those ~10 events:
3-4 are winter events where no one runs rally tires
2-4 are muddy events where rally tires are not the best choice
1-3 are run on very hardpacked surfaces where street tires may even be a better choice than rally tires, since they don't get torn up as much (the surface is hard enough that you can hear tires squeeling)
2-4 events end up with conditions where rally tires are a clear advantage.

[kturner]

The SCCA already has a place for overly-retentive people who need everything they do to be done under "quantitative guidelines" - it's called AutoCross...:waving:


ha! I almost think that most of the autoX's I've been to could have been shutdown under these guidelines...

When I went to the National Championship event a couple years ago it was very clear that the different regions run and deal with different amounts of course damage due to normal competition. In some places they can run 80 cars for 10 runs and barely scratch the surface where others can barely do one run group. IMO the safety stewards are there for a reason and are responsible for ensuring the event operates in a safe manner for all competitors.

[WAM]

Two things Usher. I'll bet 1% of the community gets to run as many events with as much diversity as you do. Big time jealous.

Second, what tires seriously ourperform rallys on mud? I'm disqualifying off-road mud-terrain tires because most cars can't fit the smallest sizes. I would think the best mud tire might be the Silverstone Rally 525M or whatever they call their mud design. Comparing the tread patterns of snows vs rallys, I don't see snows being some big mud advantage. But you've got the experience...what gives?

[LGT-FST]

I run in New England and I have yet to see any tyre competitive with the silverstone muds. LOR

[Usher]

I don't think anyone in our region has the Silverstones or any other rally mud tire. Most people I know have Hankook R201s or R203s. They are no better or worse than snow tires in muddy conditions. The vehicles that do the best in the mud are the trucks with their all-terrain tires.

I bought some cheap closeout snow tires this spring and cut off a lot of the tread blocks with a tire groover to make a good cheap mud tire. I haven't tried them out yet, though.

[MarkA]

In the mud, the Silverstones will outrun anything else by several seconds. They're virtually mandatory equipment here in OR for the rally tire classes where over enthusiastic course watering means it's always muddy.

[WAM]

In the mud, the Silverstones will outrun anything else by several seconds. They're virtually mandatory equipment here in OR for the rally tire classes where over enthusiastic course watering means it's always muddy.

I had hoped they weren't still doing that. I'll be coming up for the challenge again later this month and last year my car was uncontrollable in the slime. Like I DNF'd at walking speed. I could point the nose at will but the car would NOT alter it's path. And that was on snows with 1/3 of the lugs removed.

It's hopeless, but I've got in-laws living up there..so we ARE going.

[MarkA]

I had hoped they weren't still doing that. I'll be coming up for the challenge again later this month and last year my car was uncontrollable in the slime. Like I DNF'd at walking speed. I could point the nose at will but the car would NOT alter it's path. And that was on snows with 1/3 of the lugs removed.

It's hopeless, but I've got in-laws living up there..so we ARE going.

Continuing OT - For the record, I haven't ran up here this year yet for that reason but all the pics I've seen show continued sliming.

[A1337STI]

Two things Usher. I'll bet 1% of the community gets to run as many events with as much diversity as you do. Big time jealous.

Second, what tires seriously ourperform rallys on mud? I'm disqualifying off-road mud-terrain tires because most cars can't fit the smallest sizes. I would think the best mud tire might be the Silverstone Rally 525M or whatever they call their mud design. Comparing the tread patterns of snows vs rallys, I don't see snows being some big mud advantage. But you've got the experience...what gives?

Think you missed Sonoma , All of the tops times were by Snow tires, not by rally tires. Granted no one used a "Rally mud tire"

I've driven in mud in both good snow tires and Dry gravel rally tires, the snows are better hands down.

I've heard from a rally guy the silverstones MUD tires are amazing in the mud. I'm thinking of picking up a pair (maybe 4) for betsy .. gonna try it out

[noisycricket]

I've never been to the PNW but from my mountain biking days, I've heard stories about the mud you guys have up there. Legendary mud.

Our local mud tends to be very, shall we say, fibrous. At the last event I was at with rally tires, the tires turned into slicks because the grass tightly weaved itself into the tread and it never self-cleaned. Snow tires don't pack that easily.

At the Detroit region 2010 February Mudpocalypse (http://lclutchl.smugmug.com/Motorsports/Rally-Cross/2010-02-20-DR-SCCA-Rallycross/11302371_5AZ2A#794089866_Sv5zF) I was very happy with my (gack) General Altimax Arctics. A lot of grip on the horsetrack section and they had more traction than I had power for the deep glop. I was told that, one time when I stalled, I launched the car in 1st gear and it just took off... (I was with the white refrigerator-lookin' wagon) If only I had about 250 more horsepower :thumbsup:

[LGT-FST]

in 08 scca nationals at Nashville on the practice course on friday after 2 days of rain the closest anyone could come to our silverstone shod Audi was 10 seconds. LOR

[omahasubaru]

525Ms?

[RallyTaco]

I think those Siverstones are pretty sweet myself but I think in mud with clay the more squishy snow tires might self clean a little better. Also our muddiest events are often near freezing where the ultra stiff and hard rally tire gives up any advantage to snows.

How do these tires wear on harder pack surfaces? Are they as soft as a "soft" compound rally tire or softer?

On a moist to wet grassy course in the summer I bet they would dominate but like Usher pointed out we don't run enough consecutive events like that for the domination to accumulate in results.

I always wondered why Oregon pics and vid were always so muddy. I wondered if it was weather or watering. That seems to be a little crazy with the watering to do that on purpose to a course.

[RallyTaco]

525Ms?

The tire of which we speak... err type.

http://www.taborrallyteam.com/S525_mud.html

[WAM]

in 08 scca nationals at Nashville on the practice course on friday after 2 days of rain the closest anyone could come to our silverstone shod Audi was 10 seconds. LOR

The mud tire I presume 525M? And do you run them on dry surfaces too? I kinda figured you for a snow tire guy from your postings.

[LGT-FST]

Yes they are 525m. I use many tyres for many surfaces. Bill I used winterforce at Foutain because that is what my codriver wanted and he had the local knowledge. I think it was the right choice for the surface and temp. Hope to see you in august. LOR

[legacymax]

I don't want to speak for Max, but I think that's what he said. I think late WRX's can fit 15's right? Not the STi.
All standard WRXs will fit 15" rally wheels in front. That is why Shawn and I had Team Dynamics on the front and standard legacy 15s on the back. I run shaved wrx calipers on my impreza in M4 with 91 turbo legacy wheels.

I agree with the flywheel mod rule. It is not enough of an advantage and it is often changed. You don't want someone new with minimal mods with a different flywheel be discouraged because they have to rallycross in M4.

I have never seen mud like up at the Hillsboro event. In Colorado rallycross, we really do not really have mud. It was a shock when I got up there and and on gravel tires i really could not move. Each region has its own challenges and that is what keeps things interesting right?
-Max