Hello few questions about my first scca rallycross

[james125]

Hello everyone new hear. Well I bought a 1997 subaru impreza outback sport for 500 bucks nothing is wrong with it 2.2 l manual. Going to do my first scca rallycross in Ohio June 5. I need to know how to set up the car like tire air pressure, ABS on or off, turn off airbag, do I need a skid plate (I already put a hole in my oil pan on some Michigan back roads) I will be running four brand new Kelly explorer tires on 14 inch steelies that I got a good deal on they were Free.
And what are the classes like just stock AWD? and pay outs? Rules and if anybody will be there?
EDIT Just give me some tips thanks...

[cghstang]

Air pressure: For your first event just set 'em and forget 'em. 38-40psi should be enough to prevent debeading.

ABS: probably off but I couldn't say for sure.

Airbag & Skidplate: don't bother messing with either. If the course is rutted enough that you need a skidplate, it will be changed.

The classes are Stock, Prepared, and Modified. Rules can be found here: http://cms.scca.com/documents/Rally%20Rules/2010_RallyCross_Rules.pdf

No pay outs for local events but Subaru pays contingency for national challenge events.

Read the stickies at the top of the page if you want more general info on how tech and the event in general will work.

I'll be there in the blue Escort helping set things up. See you there!

[MarkA]

For the only thing cghstang didn't completely answer, ABS off, doubly so if it's muddy.

[james125]

Thanks guys and I will see you there cghstang

[eage8]

for your first RallyX, just go out there and have fun :)

you don't really need to modify your car at all.

If it's actually stock, then yes, you'll be in the stock-awd category (SA), but make sure you read the rules. Some things that you wouldn't think are a big deal can bump you into a different class

Are your wheels the same size that came on the car stock? if not, that'll put you in Prepared AWD. I think the OBS came with 15s... but then again, it'll depend on how strict your local guys are, they might let you run them in SA.

[SoCalBoomer]

as far as what class you're in - if you're stock (really stock), you will be fine in SA. However, just ask the people there, esp the guy doing tech. They will be able to explain the classes and tend to be extremely helpful.

number 1 rule - have fun! :D

[james125]

Yea that's the plan just to go out and have fun. The car came with 15s but like I said I got new 14s wheels tires for free should not matter.

[james125]

You guys really run 38-40 psi I was thinking 20-25 because when we ran tuff trucks we run them down to 18-20 and never popped a bead.

[Rallycat66]

You guys really run 38-40 psi I was thinking 20-25 because when we ran tuff trucks we run them down to 18-20 and never popped a bead.

Yes... The cornering forces you can get at a rallycross can roll the tire off the rim if you don't up the pressure.

The trucks probably got away with it because the sidewalls are a bit stiffer than the typical car tire and they were probably not cornering anywhere near as hard and sideways as a rallycross car will.

[RexKid115]

I started SCCA Rallycross this year as well. I run in the Detroit Region, I'm guessing this is where you'll be running? EDIT I see your running in OH

You won't need a skid plate here in MI. The tracks we have run on are typically all horse tracks and fairgrounds, and some fields.

Like the others have said, go with a med-high air pressure at first to prevent de-beading but also to set a starting point.

Focus on getting to know your car. Don't worry about going fast or getting ahead or yourself. Take your first few runs easy and make sure you know the course, then add a little speed as you are comfortable. Being smooth and consistent yeilds better times than ballsout crazy fast all over the place.

In the Detroit Region we get 6 runs per session, and we run 2 sessions. THe first run in each session is a "Parade Lap", in which you can drive a slower pace to make sure you understand the layout, and get a feeling for the track, see any spots where conditions change (Of course you can see that in the course walk too). Then we have 5 timed runs after that. Track changes between morning and afternoon sessions.

Really to be prepared... make sure the car is all set to go, its mechanically sound, you have your helmet ready, and be prepared to have fun. The crowd in the Detroit Region is real friendly, and the members of the SCCA are very nice as well.

Just remeber it's your first event... don't plan on setting records, be consistent and smooth, learn your car, and have a blast!

"Slower is faster!"

[james125]

Ok thanks. Yea I'm going to be running Ohio and Michigan I go to school in lima ohio and hometown is about an hour north of detroit.

[RexKid115]

Right on! I don;t think I'll be going down to the Rally-X in Ohio, but I will be attending the ones here in MI. I missed the last one, but I'm going to try and make the rest of the ones for this year.

Good luck to you in your first Rally-X. Its a ton of fun.

[SoCalBoomer]

You guys really run 38-40 psi I was thinking 20-25 because when we ran tuff trucks we run them down to 18-20 and never popped a bead.

completely different animals! :D

trucks often use beadlockers (so you can't pop the bead) and the sidewalls of those tires are stiff-az-ell! You can often run rally tires (with reinforced sidewalls) at very low pressure as well - because of those sidewalls. But with normal tires or snow tires, they're far too soft to run with low pressure.

And as has been said, off-road trucks don't turn anywhere near as sharp as we do in Rallycross - their hairpin turns are WIDE WIDE WIDE . . . ours are quite tight - which creates lots of sideloading on the tire. . .

[eage8]

You guys really run 38-40 psi I was thinking 20-25 because when we ran tuff trucks we run them down to 18-20 and never popped a bead.

yeah, I run my Firestone Winterforces at around 45 psi just to be safe. I haven't had one debead yet, but I've known people who have debeaded them at around 40 psi. They have very very soft sidewalls :P

[james125]

Yea I just picked up a set of 4 mastercraft glacier grip tires like 90 percent tread left for 20 bucks man these tires are soft. But I think I have to remove the studs so I don't get put in Prepared awd class.

[Usher]

In my experience, debeading seems to be more dependent on driving style than tire pressure. I run my tires at 32psi front and 29psi rear (Blizzak WS60/Hankook R201) and have never had a debead.

I also run my car with the ABS on. I think on most of the courses I've driven on, ABS will be faster than non-ABS. This is especially true for new drivers. The only real problem I have with it is if a course is set up with high finish speeds and a straight after the finish, since the ABS increases straight line stopping distances on dirt.

[RallyTaco]

But I think I have to remove the studs so I don't get put in Prepared awd class.

No one will care in Detroit at a summer event and your studs will all be gone by the end of the day anyway if not after a couple of runs:lol2:

Have fun rxing and you will soon be addicted to it:thumbsup:.

WOR has two events just S of Dayton in June that should be really close for you if you didn't know about them.

http://www.myautoevents.com/pls/mae/frmEventList.Show?psevent_type_id=26

[SoCalBoomer]

In my experience, debeading seems to be more dependent on driving style than tire pressure. I run my tires at 32psi front and 29psi rear (Blizzak WS60/Hankook R201) and have never had a debead.

I also run my car with the ABS on. I think on most of the courses I've driven on, ABS will be faster than non-ABS. This is especially true for new drivers. The only real problem I have with it is if a course is set up with high finish speeds and a straight after the finish, since the ABS increases straight line stopping distances on dirt.

While it does depend A LOT on the course and the region. . . better safe than sorry for air pressure. Get it up there for your first one or two - debeading sucks. Once you start learning how to drive through ruts, or even if your region GETS them or if your region's ruts are destructive, then you should adjust your pressure. . . until then, start safe.


Usher - you're in the vast minority. I don't know of anyone else who runs with their ABS on (willingly) and I don't know anyone who is faster with ABS on than off.

ABS is intended for asphalt. As you said, it increases straight line stopping distances on dirt - which means your braking point has to be earlier which means you have to stop going as fast because you can't brake.

Now, if you have a course that has no real tight turns, cool. As I said earlier, it depends on the course and region, but everywhere I've raced and all the track layouts I've seen - ABS would be a detriment. At some point, you're going to need to do a hard-brake before a turn and you're going to curse your ABS.

[Usher]

Usher - you're in the vast minority. I don't know of anyone else who runs with their ABS on (willingly) and I don't know anyone who is faster with ABS on than off.

ABS is intended for asphalt. As you said, it increases straight line stopping distances on dirt - which means your braking point has to be earlier which means you have to stop going as fast because you can't brake.

Now, if you have a course that has no real tight turns, cool. As I said earlier, it depends on the course and region, but everywhere I've raced and all the track layouts I've seen - ABS would be a detriment. At some point, you're going to need to do a hard-brake before a turn and you're going to curse your ABS.

I agree that ABS is a pain when you're trying to stop on dirt. However, when you're on course, you're not slowing down just to slow down, you're slowing to set up the car for the next corner, and I feel that ABS can be very helpful for that.

When I'm at a rallycross, I always try to watch to see how the other drivers are driving the course, and I've noticed many times where the non-ABS guys get on the brakes too hard, lock their wheel(s) and cost themselves a lot of time. Quite often, I'll see cars lock the front wheels just before entering a corner, miss their turn-in point, and take out a wall of cones (I saw that 5 or 6 times last weekend at Eastern States.) I've also occasionally seen cars stall because they hit the brakes too hard in gear. If you're starting out in rallycross and leave the ABS on, it's easier to follow the correct line, since you don't have to worry about unexpectedly locking up a wheel.

For any new driver, I would recommend leaving the ABS on for the first few events, then deciding whether or not to disable it.

[SoCalBoomer]

well, whatever you want to do. Been doing this for 7 years, instructed at several schools, and assisted with many a person who needed to remove the ABS fuse, and it was always obvious who had it and who didn't.

Like I said, it does depend on the course (no sharp turns, don't bother; loops, hairpins, sharp turns (like I LOOOOVE), then kill the bloody thing) but you're seriously the FIRST person I've come across who recommends leaving it on. . .

IMHO, it's better to learn to control the car, than to learn to control what the car wants you to control. . .

Look at what the FAST guys run - and by fast I mean the serious fast guys. . . when you go to your event, talk with guys who get fast-time-of-day and ask them.

[Usher]

Look at what the FAST guys run - and by fast I mean the serious fast guys. . . when you go to your event, talk with guys who get fast-time-of-day and ask them.

Last year, I got FTD at almost half the events I went to, and I was almost never more than a few tenths away from FTD. At the Eastern States Championship last weekend, I got the fastest time on 2 of the 3 courses and was two tenths slower than the fastest time on the third course.

[noisycricket]

ABS can be a benefit on dirt, if the fronts lock first - it vents the front pressure, while still maintaining rear pressure. I was able to exploit this characteristic at one event :)

At any rate, the ABS in the Subarus I'd borrow never bothered me. Then again, I never borrowed one in a seriously muddy event, or on courses where braking was needed for more than pre-corner chassis setup. The 2010 ESC definitely had braking zones. Detroit courses, I've noticed, tend to have straightaways and square corners, while the two Ohio regions tend to be a series of sweeping and tighter curves with no straights at all.

Do Subarus deactivate the ABS when the handbrake is pulled? Some cars don't, but if you find yourself NEEDING to disable it (flying finish on slick surface for example) you could lift the lever enough to switch the light on.

Some cars don't... I've generated ABS lights in some cars (ahem Delco ABS IV) by driving on snow with one foot lightly on the brake and handbrake firmly pulled. :) "Hey, I'm bypassing and bypassing and the rear tires still won't spin again!"

[RallyTaco]

Last year, I got FTD at almost half the events I went to, and I was almost never more than a few tenths away from FTD. At the Eastern States Championship last weekend, I got the fastest time on 2 of the 3 courses and was two tenths slower than the fastest time on the third course.

Yeah but if you were "serious fast" you would have gotten consecutive FTD's at every event for...is it 3 or 5 years? I don't remember what the official Serious-Fast™ requirements are for 2010. :lol2:

Usher also wasn't even in his normal optimized for rx car at Eastern States just his daily driver.



Look at what the FAST guys run - and by fast I mean the serious fast guys. . . when you go to your event, talk with guys who get fast-time-of-day and ask them.

Nothing wrong with differing opinions but assuming some guy sucks because he disagrees with you is a little much.:?

[Usher]

Do Subarus deactivate the ABS when the handbrake is pulled? Some cars don't, but if you find yourself NEEDING to disable it (flying finish on slick surface for example) you could lift the lever enough to switch the light on.

I think manual Subarus might disable the ABS when the handbrake is pulled, but I've never tried to test it. I usually get off the foot brake before pulling the handbrake.

I do know for sure that automatic Subarus with traction control do not disable the ABS or traction control when you pull the handbrake. I remember doing ice racing in my Outback Sport before I sold it to my brother. I would pull the handbrake to get the car to rotate, but the traction control would come in and brake the front wheels.:pissed:

[james125]

Yea I will not run ABS Iv been practicing all day and I hate ABS on dirt and sand I have never owned a car with working ABS. Man I love these tires the car hooks up alot better now.

[james125]

Just wondering. Do they run rallycross in the rain I just don't want to drive out there if there going to canceled it this weekend.

[RallyTaco]

Have to check with WOR for the details but in general rallycrosses are run rain, snow, or shine unless the course is so bad it is unrunnable or would cause too much damage to run.

[cghstang]

RallyTaco is correct. We'll run in the rain as long as there isn't lightning. Even if there is lightning, we just wait it out.

[noisycricket]

I think manual Subarus might disable the ABS when the handbrake is pulled, but I've never tried to test it. I usually get off the foot brake before pulling the handbrake.

I will admit to never having tried to use the handbrake in an AWD vehicle, but in my little rear-driver, I have a nice handbrake and have been learning how to use it. I found that the best use is to finish off a braking zone with it - in other words, it is used in conjunction with the foot brake. It seems to be the most predictable and controllable this way.

The gut feeling is that this is because simply locking the rear brakes just makes the car slide, while getting the weight transferred forward first, and then maintaining that weight transfer with the rear brakes while unloading the front brakes, allows you to turn in much harder, and the car rotates into the corner instead of sliding to the outside.

Kinda like when the ABS activates on only the front brakes while turning in... ;)

[Usher]

I found that the best use is to finish off a braking zone with it - in other words, it is used in conjunction with the foot brake. It seems to be the most predictable and controllable this way.
That's how I usually use it, too. I usually brake hard initially, trail brake into the beginning of the corner, then give the hand brake a quick yank while letting off the foot brake.

When it's really muddy, I've found that trying to trail brake just makes you understeer badly. In those conditions, I brake as hard as I can in a straight line, let off the brakes to start the turn, then yank the handbrake as soon as the car starts to turn.

[RallyTaco]

You guys are giving me a serious case of usable e brake envy.:-(

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t285/007Tacoma/IMG_0852.jpg

[SoCalBoomer]

Nothing wrong with differing opinions but assuming some guy sucks because he disagrees with you is a little much.:?

Don't know him, can't search him, so have no idea how fast he is.

Don't care if he disagrees with ME - he disagrees with the standard operating procedure, pretty much agreed upon by everyone I know, have spoken to, have read over the period of what, 6-7 years?

Hell, half the time I disagree with ME. . . :tongue:

[WAM]

ABS can't be turned off on my car...too integrated into the control system. I think it's a serious hindrance. If I overcook the fast entrance to a tight corner, I'm toast. The car simply overshoots the corner no matter what I do. My other cars in the same situation I can lock up the tires and force the car to rotate into the corner. It's ugly, but it saves the run. Sometimes even looks fast. But we know better.;-)

The only solution is to never overcook a corner and that's not my style. You can't find 10/10ths if you're afraid to look for it.

USHER, just curious. Does your ABS cause the same problem or does it behave differently. I know it works for you...I checked the results. Stay off the cones man and you would have been all over Warren.

[Usher]

I had problems overshooting corners when I first got the WRX. I don't have any problems with it anymore. I can't say how much is due to me learning the proper braking points for the car, making tweaks to the braking system, or getting more practice with the handbrake.

I had my ABS control swapped out (2002-2003 cars had a TSB for the ABS controller) and switched the rubber brake hoses for braided stainless steel hoses. Both of those made a noticeable improvement in ABS performance. Upgrading from the pads that came on the car to Hawk HPS probably helped, too.

[WAM]

Interesting. I've never used the handbrake. Until recently I was under bad advice that it was not to be used with a twinclutch. Turns out that's wrong. So I recently practiced it a bit and never found a faster corner with it. So I thought I'd never use it except when faced with such a tight hairpin that it couldn't be driven thru. Would have saved my ass at Nationals last year.

But maybe it would also save an overcooked corner entry. Have to check that out.

[noisycricket]

Apologies if I am pointing out something that you already know, but if you have a Mitsubishi with the DSG-style trans, don't left-foot-brake. When the brakes are applied the transmission partially disengages the active clutch, and besides the obvious wear issues, it will send transmission temps skyrocketing. One person found trans temps elevated to near 300 degrees after one lap of a road course.

I used to want a dual clutch equipped car until I found out about that tidbit.

[WAM]

Yeah, there are mods to get around the technical problems. But I just don't LFB it. I will however see if I can make Usher's handbrake tips work for me. I've been fairly successful at race-lining, but you can always go faster.

Back to James initial request for tips. You were concentrating on car set-up, but what you want to concentrate on is driver development. The very best drivers can embarrass you (and me) driving way underprepared cars.