How F'd am I??

[worldrallyblue]

ok heres the sotry guys: Me, LorenKb, Murtada, and my buddy chris went out to El Mirage today...,.. everything was awesome , practiced some left foot braking, got sideways a bit... but after about 4 hours(right before i was planning on leaving) me and loren noticed a loud knocking coming from the engine bay.... i kind of noticed it earlier but it was real faint and I thought it was just in my head.

Ok.... so after studying anfd listening to the knocking for about a half an hour... it sounds like the knoicking is coming from under the right side of the intake manifold.... but every now and then it sounds like it is on the left side of the intake manifold...????

When I was driving my car back to Loren's house... you could tell it wasnt always knocking.. it would knock when I accelerated real hard and at times it would knock based on how much gas I would give it... I.E. In 4th gear it wouldnt knock when I accelerated a good amount, but when i decreased acceleration it would start to happen again.

Also, the knock wwas not constant.... it seemed like i could control by how much I pushed the accelerator down but when Idleing there was no knock and when pushing clutch or placing stick in nuetral there was no noise. Its almost like it only knocks when RPM's where above 3000.

All of this made me think that maybe something was loose and taking to my garage could help me figure it out... so i headed home... going down the 15 I couldnt get it to stop knocking.,,,, shifted into fifth after passing a car(I was in the slow lane at the time) and when I pushed the clutch to shift into fifth gear my car died on me... I was able to restart it but you could tell it was having some difficulty turning the engine at first, SO I decided to get off the freeway (worried that I might loose my car again) as I was exiting the Freeway my car Died once again.... and would not start. SON OF A!!!!

So ithrough my hazards on and called the rents who have AAA. I went into the gas station that was right off the exit and came back out after eating a snack. After about 15 minutes of my hazrds being on... My battery was completely dead. SON Of A!!!

So now my car sits at my parents house with a battery charger hooked up to the battery...

I am not sure what the hell is going on... or if the battery problems are related to the knocking but I am thiniking I may have screwed up some of my internals.

Anyone got any ideas of what is going or have had a similar situation like this????

I am no guru with this stuff so anything at all will be a help.

Thanks In advance,

Albert

[lorenkb]

Aw man... it got worse? :evil:

Just to add in my observations, the knocking was definately RPM dependant (you could watch one of the belts, every time the belt went around it knocked). We did get it to knock once or twice at idle, but after a blip or two of the throttle it wouldn't knock any more.

Hope you get this sorted out without too much trouble (or money!) Albert.

[worldrallyblue]

Yeah I definitely got worse when my car started to die... something is very wrong with my electrical right now...

But still, had a good time this morning and it was nice driving with you guys.

[dppaladino]

I'm really a noob at this stuff, but if it's one of the belts, and some sort of electrical thing, than maybe alternator related? doesnt explain the car dieing though.

[worldrallyblue]

update: Charged battery all night.... tried to start my car this morning, no luck..... took battery to pep boys to be tested, and battery needed to be replaced.... bought new battery... currently at work and when i get home i will see what happens with this new battery.

-Albert

[lorenkb]

Hey Albert, just got done talking to an old friend who knows more about engines than I do (which isn't saying much...). He said it sounds like oil delivery problems to the top end, and that the knocking are the lifters being starved of oil. He also mentioned that there are additives for this situation, and those plus a good flush would help.

[L and E Fab.com]

Sounds like a spun rod bearing to me.

they don't make alot of noise when the engine is idling, but if you just rev it does it stay quite until you let off the throttle?

so like blip the throttle should rev, then clack, clack, clack, clack.

If so it is a rod bearing.

You can spin a rod bearing from oil starvation (hard corning and high reving) or high reving.

[worldrallyblue]

well... when we were trying to figure it out... it would knock when I either rev'd coming out of an idle(like starting in first gear... but i have an ACT clutch and flywheel so I ussually take off at upper 2000's in rpm so i dont get shutter) and the knock again once I got the RPM's above 3000. There was no knock or a quiet knock/vibration in rpms lower than 3000.

It was definitely knocking though when I was accelerating not just when I let off the gas.

Now also, when we got to Lorens house yesterday it would knock when at an idle... then stop.....

-Albert

[RyanH]

If it sounds anything like this, its a spun bearing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpn-NnTm0ho

[worldrallyblue]

SON OF A :x ....... Loren can you confirm this.... that sure sounds like what it was to me. Thanks for the post RyanH.... I am pretty sure that is what it is... anyone from socal ever took a wrx engine apart?? And who know what this might cost me for parts and labor??

Thanks for the help everyone,

Albert

[lorenkb]

I hate to say it, but that sounds like the exact same thing.

[RyanH]

Sorry man, but that's what is sounds like to me. Here's more clips:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOAf--e_reM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEIUDRDllOI&mode=related&search=tear

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9LJP1mw0es

[worldrallyblue]

no worries Ryan H thanks for the clips though.... so how hard is this to fix??

[RyanH]

Still under warranty? You're looking at a new shortblock most likely.

[worldrallyblue]

naw not under warranty anymore.. a 2.5 hyrbid might just be in the future now.

[409industries]

Damn that is some ****ty news. Can this be prevented with a heavier weight oil to maintain safe lubrication during hard cornering? is 5w30 thick enough? how about 10w30?

[rollo]

Seriously. I guess maybe if you were doing donuts or extended circles or whatever, oil starvation may come into play. First thing to do is make sure you're right to the top line of the dipstick. Other than that.. aftermarket windage tray and/or baffled sump?

[RyanH]

I've heard a lot of bad things about Mobil 1 5w30, dunno if that's what you were using. I won't run anything less than 10w30 now, and I've stopped using Mobil 1.

[409industries]

I've heard a lot of bad things about Mobil 1 5w30, dunno if that's what you were using. I won't run anything less than 10w30 now, and I've stopped using Mobil 1.

Really! I have used nothing buy Mobil1 5w30 and have had no problems (this is on 6 different cars). I was just curious about using a heavier weight oil come next oil change.

[worldrallyblue]

I dont really know if Mobil 1 5w-30 is to blame or not.... but that is what i have used forever... i just did an oil change like 500 miles ago... and there a lot of bad stories on NastyCock about people having this happen to them while mobil 1 5w30.... I defintiely plan on using alot thinker oil next time... and maybe a different brand.

Also Update: Hooked new battery into car... and now the car sounds like it will start to turn real slow but not actually starting...

I think an official Dirty Impreza Engine Rebuild day is in order!! :wink:

::...trying to stay positive::

-Albert

[lorenkb]

I've heard a lot of bad things about Mobil 1 5w30, dunno if that's what you were using. I won't run anything less than 10w30 now, and I've stopped using Mobil 1.

Really! I have used nothing buy Mobil1 5w30 and have had no problems (this is on 6 different cars). I was just curious about using a heavier weight oil come next oil change.

Really. There was quite a stir about it over at nastysock a bit ago; spun bearings, lots of oil burned over short periods of time, etc. Some in-depth analysis performed by one of the bobistheoilguy members showed that it wasn't what it should be (hydrocracked group 3 base stock instead of a group 4 synthetic). I figured the accident rate was just proportional to the amount of people who run Mobil 1 5w30 (seems like everyone uses the stuff!), and that even if it wasn't as good as it was before it was still a great oil. I do know that as far as a 30 goes it's thin.

Albert, I know you were running Mobil1 5w30, but how long ago did you change your oil? Only reason I ask is because a couple of people have noted that they spun a bearing right after a new batch of oil. Like I said, I just chalked it all up to the most used oil getting the most bad press, but maybe there is something to it after all...

EDIT: slow typing FTL. New batch of 5w30 it is then... I wonder if an oil analysis would tell anything of use. Not sure how bad off the oil is after having run on a spun bearing for a fair amount of miles.

[lorenkb]

You know the upside of all this is that now is a PERFECT time to go crazy at grimmspeed's website. PnP and coated everything slapped on to a 2.5 shortblock sure would be nice :twisted:

[I Like It Sideways]

I'm using Mobil 1 10w-30 in my subaru... but if I read any horror stories from using 10w-30 I'm changing it out.

Thats a bummer about your engine...
Those clips sound horrible too.

[MetalNeverDies]

yea i use 10w 30 and we use that in my 87 blazer and i have dont dirt donuts and all sorts of stupid crap in it and taht thing has always been fine. but they used penzoil and proline

[murtada87]

I sadly gotta agree albert it sounds like the first video that ryan posted not the other three though, but dif,fenetly the first one... also you guys shouldn't use 10w30 oil, if you wanna go to a heavier oil go 5w40, the number before the w denoted how much the oil weighs when it's cold and the one after the w denotes how much it wieighs after it's hot... at 5 w the oil goes up to the engine fast while at 40 w it stays there longer and protects more, get what I'm saying??? subaru says use at least 5w30 so it protects your engine when you start the car, so when you get 5w40 you get the same protection at engine start and stronger protection when it's hot, there is also 5w50 too... i use only 5w40 redline or royal purple in my car now... I tried 5w30 pennziol and moblie 1 and both of then I lost a quart of oil after 1500 miles, when i switch to royal purple 5w30 didn't lose a drop even after 4000 miles... so this time I thought I would go up to royal purple 5w40 for extra protection... super autobachs in orange county carries royal purple in 5w30 and 5w40 all the time and redline 5w30 all times too... hope you guys understood what i was trying to get to in this post

[L and E Fab.com]

I've heard a lot of bad things about Mobil 1 5w30, dunno if that's what you were using. I won't run anything less than 10w30 now, and I've stopped using Mobil 1.

I rally on Mobil 1 5w30.

In my testing under racing conditions it stays cooler and I have yet to spin a rod bearing in my 2.0L engine.

I also change the oil in the race car alot. like every 500 miles.

I doubt that it was the oil that caused the problems. Unless you were close to the 2000+ mile range and had been heating the oil up really hot alot.

[lorenkb]

I've heard a lot of bad things about Mobil 1 5w30, dunno if that's what you were using. I won't run anything less than 10w30 now, and I've stopped using Mobil 1.

I rally on Mobil 1 5w30.

In my testing under racing conditions it stays cooler and I have yet to spin a rod bearing in my 2.0L engine.

I also change the oil in the race car alot. like every 500 miles.

I doubt that it was the oil that caused the problems. Unless you were close to the 2000+ mile range and had been heating the oil up really hot alot.

Man, just when I think there may be something to the whole "Mobil1 5w30 is now the devil" craze you go and post that. :lol:

[MetalNeverDies]

I sadly gotta agree albert it sounds like the first video that ryan posted not the other three though, but dif,fenetly the first one... also you guys shouldn't use 10w30 oil, if you wanna go to a heavier oil go 5w40, the number before the w denoted how much the oil weighs when it's cold and the one after the w denotes how much it wieighs after it's hot... at 5 w the oil goes up to the engine fast while at 40 w it stays there longer and protects more, get what I'm saying??? subaru says use at least 5w30 so it protects your engine when you start the car, so when you get 5w40 you get the same protection at engine start and stronger protection when it's hot, there is also 5w50 too... i use only 5w40 redline or royal purple in my car now... I tried 5w30 pennziol and moblie 1 and both of then I lost a quart of oil after 1500 miles, when i switch to royal purple 5w30 didn't lose a drop even after 4000 miles... so this time I thought I would go up to royal purple 5w40 for extra protection... super autobachs in orange county carries royal purple in 5w30 and 5w40 all the time and redline 5w30 all times too... hope you guys understood what i was trying to get to in this post

i have alot of miles so my mechanic said to use 10 w 30 should i not use that? is it bad for the car to switch form what it ran stock to that and then back? how much is it for the royal purple or redline stuff?

[murtada87]

I sadly gotta agree albert it sounds like the first video that ryan posted not the other three though, but dif,fenetly the first one... also you guys shouldn't use 10w30 oil, if you wanna go to a heavier oil go 5w40, the number before the w denoted how much the oil weighs when it's cold and the one after the w denotes how much it wieighs after it's hot... at 5 w the oil goes up to the engine fast while at 40 w it stays there longer and protects more, get what I'm saying??? subaru says use at least 5w30 so it protects your engine when you start the car, so when you get 5w40 you get the same protection at engine start and stronger protection when it's hot, there is also 5w50 too... i use only 5w40 redline or royal purple in my car now... I tried 5w30 pennziol and moblie 1 and both of then I lost a quart of oil after 1500 miles, when i switch to royal purple 5w30 didn't lose a drop even after 4000 miles... so this time I thought I would go up to royal purple 5w40 for extra protection... super autobachs in orange county carries royal purple in 5w30 and 5w40 all the time and redline 5w30 all times too... hope you guys understood what i was trying to get to in this post

i have alot of miles so my mechanic said to use 10 w 30 should i not use that? is it bad for the car to switch form what it ran stock to that and then back? how much is it for the royal purple or redline stuff?

sorry to get off subject albert... well how much does your mechanic know about turboed high compression engines??? cuz from what I know (I'm not no expert, I just did some research) at 10w30 the oil is ticker at colder tempuratures which means it won't travel to all the engine as fast as it wieghed only 5w30, so it will protect you engine more at colder tempuratures... and I'm not saying moblie 1 is bad at all because it just depends on your engine, some engines burn more than other so you just have to try and see... sorry but I don't remember how much the oil was, anywhere between 6.99-12.99 depending on brand and wieght... and I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter if you switch around engine oils, as long as you don't mix them.

[L and E Fab.com]

I would stay away from Redline oil in a street car.

It ran a ton hotter in the rally car then the Mobil 1.

After I tried the Royal Purple transmission fluid and dumped it after 1000 miles I have never messed with there motor oil.

There are alot of expensive oils out there but Mobil one has been the standard for years. So why change what is not broken.

I run 10w30 in the street car but it is the N/a 2.2l engine and that is what the manufacture recommends.

I am pretty sure the manufacture has a good idea about what oil should be ran in there engines.

[409industries]

for the record too, I recently got a Engine Oil Analysis from Blackstone Labs (thanks loren) and everything came back very good. They mentioned that some dirt may have gotten past the air filter but that is not damage related to oil.


AARON: Thanks for your notes. Your oil sampling procedure was perfect. The universal averages for
typical wear from the Subaru 2.5L 4-cylinder are based on a 4500-mile oil change interval. This oil was
in use for 4085 miles and aluminum (pistons), iron (steel parts) and silicon were all high. The silicon
could be from excess dirt getting past the air filter and causing some piston scuffing in the cylinders,
so check this. Other wear metals looked good and oil filtration (see insolubles) was normal. Try
another 4000-mile oil change and check back to keep an eye on wear and silicon.

This was an analysis done after at least half a dozen oil changes using mobil 1 5w30. I have a feeling im going to just stick with it since I personally have never had any problems with this brand / weight oil.

[worldrallyblue]

Ok update:

I have opted to take the advice of many that I have talked to on forums and have come to the belief that I bent one of my rod bearings. :angryfinger:

Thanks RyanH I have a sound clip that he found on Youtube and my car sounds exactly like that, EXACTLY!!!

So... I am gonna pick myself up another WRX Block. Yes I said WRX block... STI sounds nice... but I would like to Race in the PGT class with this car once it is paid off. So my thought is to pick up a used WRX block... to use for a while... Meanwhile I am going to rebuild my current block and keep it as a spare. An extra engine couldnt hurt!!

So, I have already pretty much taken apart everything I need to for now... Radiator is out... Intake Out,... Exhaust off.... and various hoses disconected.... Next will be to seperate the Tranny from the Block which should be pretty easy since I replaced my clutch and flywheel after DI Meet #1.

Do you guys think I should taske this opportunity to try and replace the Motor Mounts and if so... which ones??

I would post pics but my Comp at home doesnt seem to wanna work right now(ITs like it all comes at you at once).. so thats ti for now.

-Albert G

[lorenkb]

I would take the opportunity to replace motor and transmission mounts; Subaru Group N mounts.

https://www.subarugenuineparts.com/product_info.php?products_id=658
https://www.subarugenuineparts.com/product_info.php?products_id=657

It's not that hard to do later on though, so it's not the end of the world if you don't do it now. There are a couple other bushings on the tranny that are "soft" as well, but they are much easier to get at.

Let me know when you need the cherry picker. I think it will fit in the back of the wagon if you need me to drive it over.

[L and E Fab.com]

Cusco Makes a sweet setup with engine and transmission as well.

They are stiffer then the group N parts.

http://www.landefabrication.com/sess/utn;jsessionid=154720335f3b173/shopdata/0005_Subaru+Impreza/0070_Impreza+WRX+2002-05/0020_Engine/0060_Mounts/product_details.shopscript?article=0010_Cusco%2BEn gine%2Band%2BTransmission%2BMounts%2B-%2B%2BImpreza%2B1993-2005%2B%3D28C-660911SET%3D29

[Not All There]

Hey L and E, I was wondering if once our car is up and running again, would you be interested in working on a few deals with us for when we buy some parts if we advertise for you. This wouldnt be till I have the car a little further down the road, just curious if you would have any interest later on. Let me know, I love the products and quality.

Air

[L and E Fab.com]

Hey L and E, I was wondering if once our car is up and running again, would you be interested in working on a few deals with us for when we buy some parts if we advertise for you. This wouldnt be till I have the car a little further down the road, just curious if you would have any interest later on. Let me know, I love the products and quality.

Air

What I require for sponsorship consideration.

Write-up on you and your car.

Your racing experance, the events you plan on running for the next season.

what you are looking for in sponsorship, and big thing; What are you going to do for me?

[worldrallyblue]

Interesting how quickly this forum changed... :wink:

[L and E Fab.com]

Interesting how quickly this forum changed... :wink:

Sorry... You fix your car yet?



Just kidding how is the fix going?

[MetalNeverDies]

I sadly gotta agree albert it sounds like the first video that ryan posted not the other three though, but dif,fenetly the first one... also you guys shouldn't use 10w30 oil, if you wanna go to a heavier oil go 5w40, the number before the w denoted how much the oil weighs when it's cold and the one after the w denotes how much it wieighs after it's hot... at 5 w the oil goes up to the engine fast while at 40 w it stays there longer and protects more, get what I'm saying??? subaru says use at least 5w30 so it protects your engine when you start the car, so when you get 5w40 you get the same protection at engine start and stronger protection when it's hot, there is also 5w50 too... i use only 5w40 redline or royal purple in my car now... I tried 5w30 pennziol and moblie 1 and both of then I lost a quart of oil after 1500 miles, when i switch to royal purple 5w30 didn't lose a drop even after 4000 miles... so this time I thought I would go up to royal purple 5w40 for extra protection... super autobachs in orange county carries royal purple in 5w30 and 5w40 all the time and redline 5w30 all times too... hope you guys understood what i was trying to get to in this post

i have alot of miles so my mechanic said to use 10 w 30 should i not use that? is it bad for the car to switch form what it ran stock to that and then back? how much is it for the royal purple or redline stuff?

sorry to get off subject albert... well how much does your mechanic know about turboed high compression engines??? cuz from what I know (I'm not no expert, I just did some research) at 10w30 the oil is ticker at colder tempuratures which means it won't travel to all the engine as fast as it wieghed only 5w30, so it will protect you engine more at colder tempuratures... and I'm not saying moblie 1 is bad at all because it just depends on your engine, some engines burn more than other so you just have to try and see... sorry but I don't remember how much the oil was, anywhere between 6.99-12.99 depending on brand and wieght... and I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter if you switch around engine oils, as long as you don't mix them.

i just have a 2.5 l NA... but i might switch to 5w 40 i guess

[worldrallyblue]

Allright Here's the update Guys (Erik Sorry it took so long to answer your question and congrats on the article again):

After reading for days straight... contemplating a 2.5(1900 plus all the necessary parts ie gaskets new oil pump new tune etc), a used 2.5(1250 plus all necessary parts again plus tune), a used 2.0(700) or a full rebuild of my block and heads(replacing almost everything inside the block except for the crank [which I would really love to do] around 3000 with labor from garage tuning). After read ing all the issuews people have had with ej257 and ej205's and thier oem bearings being spun... still not sure if it is related to mobil 1... i dont know if i believe that or not... but I will be using thicker viscosity oil for now on.

So, I have opted to replace my block and heads with used ones.. I have found a used long block out of the for sale forums on NASTYCOCK and decided to buy it after spending to much time trying to find one out here in california. I almost even bought an EJ20G...not the best decision I would ve made but I decided not to.

My plans still are to race my 04 wrx in CRS Rally Events in the PGT class by 2009 or 2010 so that Is why I picked up a used long block out of an 02. I will be replacing my Long block with this used one while I rebuild my current broken block with fully forged pistons and rods, new bearings a heads job, new belt and posssibly a visit for some of my parts to grimm speed and I plan on doing all the work myself with exception to any honing I may need to have done and the heads job. And, In time having a back up long block for when things go wrong.

So this is where I am at right now, My used long block should be coming to my parents house today. Hopefully I will be able to have it installed by friday night. I have been really missing my suby. F150 doesnt even come close to a WRX :)

-Albert

[lorenkb]

Hey Albert, any progress since Friday? I hate to say it, but I had a lot of fun working on your broken car :tongue:.

It dawned on me that you might want to get a new timing belt for the swap... I realized that the only reason we were able to get the crank pulley off is because of how screwed the top end is (remember how we couldn't get 3 of the cams to move?). Well, that means that it was the timing belt taking all that load to break the crank pulley bolt loose, and it also means that belt was under a hell of a lot of stress keeping that engine running for as long as it did...

Oh, and for anyone who's been following along, I take back what I said about the motor mounts being easy to do later... or at least for the 04/05 cars. Either Kyle slipped some shrooms into my drink when I was over at his shop helping with the new mounts on his 06 wagon, or the 04/05 is setup a lot worse. I swear, we had so much damned trouble getting those mounts off I never want to see a 2.0 motor mount again. Who the hell thought it was a good idea to put a swaybar directly over the engine mount nuts anyways? Or how about the hidden bolt that goes through the mount into the block that you can't reach without voodoo powers? :angryfinger:

It was good to meet your brothers and your dad! Let me know if you need a hand come next weekend.

[worldrallyblue]

Naw... no progress yet... I need to pick up that Cam Wrench.. the dealer wanted alot for it (around 250 :FU: and four weeks waiting time:jack: ) We spent the evening trying to find a way around buying the tool which no parts store could help us with either. Tomorrow I plan on driving down to Harman Motive to pick up the tool (the Cobb version $50 :guitarist:) then the progress will continue.

I will keep you guys posted.

Again, Thanks for all the help on friday Loren. Even though we didnt finish I still had a good time too. Looking forward to driving again.

-Albert

[lorenkb]

250! Do they think they're selling Snap-on tools or something? About that time I'd start drilling holes in barstock and welding in studs the correct distance apart. Then I'd throw it at the dealership for good measure :punch:

There were a few other "Specialty Tools" in there... are there cheaper sources than the dealer for those as well or did you guys find ways around them?

Specialty Tools... :jack:

[worldrallyblue]

Update: MISSION COMPLETE

After a full day on the 23rd (Black Friday, which means I worked 8 then worked on car)... then another full night the following wednesday(after overnighting a 50 dollar tool for 47 dollars shipping from cobb)... then another full day the 1st... then finally a full night last night... I had my motor pulled out, taken apart, put back together and placed back in my suby. :guitarist:

It took a while but it was all worth it when I turned the key for the first time in 6 weeks and it started with no problem at all.

Though I am not sure what exactly went wrong inside my actual block... I know this... I could not turn the crank at all when we had the motor out and that there was plenty of metal shavings in the oil pan when we removed it.

Now... in the coming months I plan to start phase 2 and replace the internals on my broken block(assuming the block itself is still ok) and figure out exactly what happened.