Proposed FRX/CRS rulechange.

[WAM]

I've always thought the (rally-x) DNF penalty rule was kinda funky, but never got bit by it until Sunday.

Take this hypothetical: You have a debead and pull off. Another car has a debead but he's closer to the finish, so he limps in. Your penalty time is to take the slowest time in class for that run (the other guy) and add 10 seconds. So if he takes 50 seconds to limp in you get maybe a 60 second penalty. If no one else has problems, maybe you get a 10-15 second penalty. How is that logical?

Better ways to do it?

1. Add the 10 seconds to your own average time.
2. If you must add on to anothers time, make it the middle guy in class instead of last in class.
3. Everyone drops one run, but that's not the subject of this proposal.
4. Your idea here:______________

Try to think about the end result. Should a competitor really just be done for the day due to luck and circumstances beyond his control, when that's a feature of our rules which could be easily corrected?

[Rally OBXT]

Well, it's too late to change it for 2010, but it's a fair question for future rule changes in 2011.

My take is that it's just dumb luck. Maybe a guy will limp in and get a really crappy time (and make you have a VERY bad time) or maybe the whole field will be really close (and then you will still be in the hunt) I just depends. The good part of this rule is that it's really simple and straight forward. There is zero guess work and easy to calculate.

A good middle ground would be to base the worst time off the slowest "clean" run...no mechanical failure or no de-bead. It just might be hard to remember what the slowest clean run was when you look back at the times.

[pomspeed]

Bill, my idea, take a DNF instead of finishing with a debead, simple. I set the DNF time in San Diego, and it wasn't a bad run, in the mud, only 1-2 second slower than everyone elses first run in the mud.

Which is why I feel the way I do about debeads. It's safety issue, red flag and you get one chance to "fix" your run. Were there pretty bad ruts? Did you debead or get a DNF?

So I'd rather take a dnf than finish the run if it would take "a long" time to finish.

Good luck with this.

[rollo]

Hmm.. good point. I think with your hypothetical example, the debeaded car would be red flagged since there's a strong risk of the next runner catching up, but yeah there's no good reason why the penalty should be quite so variable.

I like average class time plus 10, that seems a lot fairer.

[rollo]

Bill, my idea, take a DNF instead of finishing with a debead, simple. I set the DNF time in San Diego, and it wasn't a bad run, in the mud, only 1-2 second slower than everyone elses first run in the mud.

Which is why I feel the way I do about debeads. It's safety issue, red flag and you get one chance to "fix" your run. Were there pretty bad ruts? Did you debead or get a DNF?

So I'd rather take a dnf than finish the run if it would take "a long" time to finish.

Good luck with this.

He did take the DNF, that's the point.

There was one run group where a load of people debeaded. It was weird. But then Ridgecrest has always been like that. It's dumb luck to some extent, but driving within the limits of your equipment is also part of the sport.

[lminette]

Try to think about the end result. Should a competitor really just be done for the day due to luck and circumstances beyond his control, when that's a feature of our rules which could be easily corrected?

Rally is all about this! Animals could run in front of you, ruts could form etc... it's all just luck of the draw. Really it's Force Majeure (an act of god) and I think the rule is fine as is.

[WAM]

Sorry Brent, but you didn't get it. I DID take the DNF. But another driver in class had a "problem" run of some sort and finished with an exceptionally slow time. So in addition to my 10 seconds, I got the "benefit" of his bad day.

On my three timed runs I opened up maybe a 25 second class lead. But I took a 50-some second penalty due to the above.

[WAM]

Rally is all about this! Animals could run in front of you, ruts could form etc... it's all just luck of the draw. Really it's Force Majeure (an act of god) and I think the rule is fine as is.

Yeah, that's kind of a peeve of mine. This isn't rally. We are our own sport and we can do whatever makes the most sense for us. Having to take a DNF penalty is inevitable. Having it be variable from 10 to 60 seconds depending on someone elses bad luck is stupid. Just my opinion.

[pomspeed]

I've always thought the (rally-x) DNF penalty rule was kinda funky, but never got bit by it until Sunday.

I got that, but taking a DNF puts you at the mercy of your competitors.

So since I wasn't there your "hypothectical" scenario threw me off. Was it hypothectical or is this what happened?

[Rally OBXT]

BTW, I think a de-bead should take you out of the race. IMO it's NOT ok to have a failure of that magnitude and still go on to well in a race. If the course is getting rutted up, then SLOW DOWN. If you pop a bead it is your fault no matter what.

Common excuses..

"Oh no the rut was in the middle of the turn!!" ---> You need to know that the course is getting rougher and you should slow down in the turns. Also, you need to counter steer into the rut.

"I did not see it!" ---> This is too easy. You need to look ahead.

"My tires pressure was already at 40 PSI and it still happned" ---> Once again, look ahead, slow down in the corners and counter steer into the rut even if it throws you off your line.

[WAM]

Dunno exactly what happened. I debeaded and pulled off to repair. Last guy to finish was way off of his first time, and subsequently DNS'd the rest of his runs. So my DNF penalty was based on his limp-in.

[pomspeed]

Thanks Dave, that's why I check my pressures after every run, to make sure one tire isn't unusually low, a result of aggressive driving mixed with ruts, big and small.

[WAM]

BTW, I think a de-bead should take you out of the race. IMO it's NOT ok to have a failure of that magnitude and still go on to well in a race. If the course is getting rutted up, then SLOW DOWN. If you pop a bead it is your fault no matter what.

Honest opinion. We just disagree. You want to do endurance racing where you slow down to finish. I want to sprint. Maybe some of you come from a rally background, but I come from autocross. Where it's not about "SLOW DOWN".

But remember..it's not the penalty I object to. It's having this huge variation of penalty based on unrelated side happenings. Why don't we just use dice to determine the penalty?

[Rally OBXT]

Meh, when you are racing off road, endurance is just as much a part of winning as is going fast. Now rally x is not an "endurance" event, but things are not going to be smooth as glass out there and you need to adjust your driving to suit the conditions at hand. You can't dive bomb corners when things are super rutted up, you are just asking for trouble.

I do see what you are saying about the variance in penalty though. Another easy solution is to add something like 20-30 sec to your personal worst run. That way you are making your own bed so to speak.

[Newk_Rally]

i think the penalty makes sense if someone finishes their run why would you get a better time when you didn't cross the finish line. that's the whole penalty you did not finish so you get the worst time which in this case is the slowest run + 10 sec. yes it's harsh but as dave said you're ultimately responsible for what happens to your car if you knock off a bead that was your doing and as such you should get penalized for it. this was my first debead and it cost me a podium finish. am i upset by that? of course i am. do i realize that there's no one to blame but my self ... yes i do.

[pomspeed]

Autocross for me also, but I do drive only as fast as conditions allow at a rallycross. WOT most of the time.

What is the origin of the DNF rule? Anyone know?

Maybe it should be changed. A debead shouldn't be based on someone elses abilities, or lack thereof. Maybe a dnf should be based on your slowest time for the run group plus X amount of time. If you're miles ahead of the competition, good, that's your ability. If you DNF and you're still ahead, great. Not very likely in all of the results I've ever seen, but if you are, that seems more fair than getting screwed by someone elses abilities.

I'd support the change.

[WAM]

I do see what you are saying about the variance in penalty though. Another easy solution is to add something like 20-30 sec to your personal worst run. That way you are making your own bed so to speak.

Yeah, that works for me.

But since a lot of people don't seem to have a problem with the rule, I'll just withdraw the suggestion.

I'd rather concentrate on a technical solution. (One not based on 'SLOW DOWN'.) I'm an engineer, not a lawyer.

[lminette]

Maybe a dnf should be based on your slowest time for the run group plus X amount of time.

That's how it is now. You get the slowest time + 10 seconds. It just happend that someone in Bill's run group decided to finish on a de-bead and got a really slow time penalizing Bill more. I see the frustration but normally the rule plays out correctly. +1 for Bill taking it into his own hands to engineer a solution for himself!! I like that!!:headbang:

[Rally OBXT]

Bolt those tires to the rim Bill!! hehehehe ;)

[lminette]

Bill's gonna show up with those plastic wheels with the rubber tread on them!!

[pomspeed]

Louie, it's not that way now. It's slowest time in class, not necessarily "your" time, plus the additional time penalty.

But it's all moot now. Bill doesn't want to change the rule.

[ProRallyCodriver]

Maybe some of you come from a rally background, but I come from autocross. Where it's not about "SLOW DOWN".

AutoX never goes fast. I've done 130mph in rally, wanna see that happen in autox.

But remember..it's not the penalty I object to. It's having this huge variation of penalty based on unrelated side happenings. Why don't we just use dice to determine the penalty?

Force majure. To finish first, first you must finish.

Pretty soon rallyX is going to be ruined w/ too many car classes, rule and rule changes, inquiries, protest....just like autoX.

[lminette]

Louie, it's not that way now. It's slowest time in class, not necessarily "your" time, plus the additional time penalty.

But it's all moot now. Bill doesn't want to change the rule.

Sorry! Didn't see the "your" in there!!:shootsself: That wouldn't have been a penalty to Bill though since he was Blindingly fast with his magic diffs. He was faster than most of the rally guys according to Dave. But yeah it is moot!

[SoCalBoomer]

Couple of notes:

Foremost: It's NOT a CRS or FRX rule - it's an event rule. Remember, CRS and FRX do not set rules for events, ONLY for classes and that's ONLY to make scoring consistent across events. Events run under sanctioning body or suppreg rules.

1. The rule, as we're doing it now, comes from the old SFR Rallycrosses at Thunderhill (I believe).

2. SCCA doesn't list a DNF penalty, which basically means that if you DNF, you're done unless an event has something posted in a suppreg. At least that's my understanding. . .

3. the 2009 SCCA Nats Suppregs used the following: If a competitor does not finish a run (DNF) they will receive a default time. This time will be determined by timing and scoring using the slowest competitor’s time in class and run plus ten (15) seconds. Which is pretty close to what we've been using (not sure what "ten (15) seconds" means. . . but the principle holds)


Difference between Autocross, which is single-fastest time, and Rallycross, which counts every time, is significant and deliberate - and comes from where each is derived. Autocross came from road racers and time trialers; Rallycross came from stage rally. Personally, I'd prefer to continue to honor the origins of each - Autocross has its traditions and Rallycross has its.

Strictly speaking, it should be that if you don't finish, you don't finish. That's the way it is with stage rally - they don't do a DNF time - you either cross the stage finish line or you don't. . .right? So Rallycross is already "nicer" than stage rally. . . :D

As far as red-flagging someone who has debeaded. . . that's come up fairly regularly and been discussed. Couple of things to keep in mind (and I'm not giving my opinion, just re-summarizing what has come up before):

1. WHERE do you draw the line about debeading? Turn before the finish? Two turns? Is it fair to say that if you debead 15 feet before the finish that you lose the entire run?

2. We've had mistaken calls where we thought someone had debeaded but it just was low. Now there's an extra re-run and each of those takes time.

3. Who makes the call? The corner worker on course or the event steward?

4. What if the driver doesn't notice? I know I've had a debead and didn't notice until the next turn of that direction, and on some courses (like T-Hill or Antioch) there have been lots of turns in one direction and not as many in the other (I'm thinking specifically of the Mickey Mouse - my name - course where there were really only two L turns and all the rest were R - several loops that made the L turn out of a 270 deg R loop. . .) so a debead on your passenger side tire would not show up for most of that course.

5. Which tire? On a FWD car, debeading the rear is trivial! Heck, the only purpose of the rear tires is to hold up the back end! LOL


As usual, I've gone long! But some things to consider.

[UP2MTNS]

Yeah, that's kind of a peeve of mine. This isn't rally. We are our own sport and we can do whatever makes the most sense for us. Having to take a DNF penalty is inevitable.



Honest opinion. We just disagree. You want to do endurance racing where you slow down to finish. I want to sprint. Maybe some of you come from a rally background, but I come from autocross. Where it's not about "SLOW DOWN".


so you want to make it less like rally and more towards autocross? come on Bill.....seriously. :flamedRALLYcross.


I don't know (or care) where the rule came from, but RallyX has ALWAYS been about driver skill, and second to that, car prep.....and to be more specific CONSISTENT driver skill and CONSISTENT car prep.

You can't 'get lucky' and have a great run ONCE and win anything...there's more strategy than just 'go fast', and that's the point.


IMO, a 'de-bead' is 110% driver fault. Wrong air pressure, hitting a rutted corner too hard too sideways, driving beyond one's skill level and/or equipment, etc.

I beat on that ralliart lancer and put up top SS4 times (raw...I never saw any cone count, but I know I hit a few, LOL) all the while avoiding big ass ruts and taking different lines than everyone else because I didn't want to wreck their press car.

[ProRallyCodriver]

Strictly speaking, it should be that if you don't finish, you don't finish. That's the way it is with stage rally - they don't do a DNF time - you either cross the stage finish line or you don't. . .right?

Uhm, depends. Some sanctioning bodies (FIA, USRC, NASA) have adopted super rally which assigns a penalty time for stages not finished and teams can finish w/o completing all the stages.

Must have been autoXers gone rally whining to adopt superrally.

[WAM]

so you want to make it less like rally and more towards autocross? come on Bill.....seriously. :flamedRALLYcross.
Hey, maybe it's just me. I've made maybe 400 rally-x runs the last three years and always went for it. I don't want to hear that part of the sport is driving slower than my abilities on purpose because that's rally heritage. Ain't gonna happen.

And all my critics here seem to ignore my only issue is with the inconsistency of the penalty rule. If I debead, that's on me. But awarding someone triple penalty because someone else had a problem seem unjustifiable to me.

Oh, but we've always done it that way. That's okay then.

[ProRallyCodriver]

And all my critics here seem to ignore my only issue is with the inconsistency of the penalty rule. If I debead, that's on me. But awarding someone triple penalty because someone else had a problem seem unjustifiable to me.

So you want a faster time than the person w/ problem that actually finished?

In stage rally, it saves more time to drive it out on a flat than stop & change it if there is 5 miles or less remaining in stage.

[Rally OBXT]

For some reason I thought the rule was a CRS / FRX thing. For Glen Helen I think I will change it up a bit. I like the idea of the individual competitors worst time plus 30 seconds, instead of worst time in class plus 10. It's still a harsh penalty (as it should be IMO) and hopefully makes people try and not to de-bead at all cost.

[WAM]

Yeah, it seems to be up to the organizer. So you just have to decide what message you want to send. Currently it's real close to "If you debead, you might as well mount the spare and go home". I don't find that an attractive aspect of the sport. I'm more of an "Oh crap...what can I do to get back into this thing?" Obviously, I'm in the minority and so be it.

At 30 seconds, your rule gets rid of the inconsistency :), but the message stays the same. And that's your call.

Personally I think you should pick a penalty that conceivably could be made up. Like maybe 5 seconds superiority per run. Four run event, 15 second DNF penalty. Six run event, 25 second penalty etc. But yeah, that's a different message.

[UP2MTNS]

^^ and for my 'invitational' in September, that's part of the reason my cones are 'DNF Cones'. While the overall scoring is time-based, I don't want people going 'balls out' all the time (adds to the safety factor) since if they hit one cone, then that's it..their done. (again, must more closer to a real stage rally or rally sprint). But this is just in areas where cars HAVE to be safe. Other areas, where its more open...no cones....you can go as fast (and as wide) as you want and if you go slide a little off course, or get too cocky on one turn and you spin out or hit a small burm and bend an a-arm....just press on regardless and keep going and 'get back in this thing' - a LOT more time and opportunity to catch up to someone...just don't tag a "tree"!!!

There will even be enough time in-between heats for small fixes, tire changes, etc.

[ProRallyCodriver]

^^ and for my 'invitational' in September, that's part of the reason my cones are 'DNF Cones'. I don't want people going 'balls out' all the time (adds to the safety factor) since if they hit one cone, then that's it..their done..

Forget the cones then, get landmines.

[rollo]

Having thought about this, since I was the major benefactor of the situation, I guess I'll put a slightly different point of view.

I drove two and a half hours to Ridgecrest in the same car that I raced. I also drive it every day to work, to the store, to take my kid to the school bus, to take my dogs to the vet and so on. My other car is taken apart as usual. You get the picture: it will be a giant hassle if I f--- it up in a rallycross.

Given that, I can't go all out and damn the consequences. I got away lucky at Ridgecrest '07 after being over ambitious trying to beat Aaron - I consider that my one warning.

So Sunday I went out on run 1 as hard as I felt comfortable with, but being conscious of the risk of debeading (or worse). Bear in mind that this is a seven-year-old almost stock Evo 8 with active nothing and four year old all-seasons vs a snow-shod Evo X with rally suspension, plus a significant difference in driver skill and experience. So it was no big surprise when I was slower than Bill, but even so, ten seconds slower in a ~1:40 course is kind of shocking.

But even without the mechanical and human disparity it was still pretty evident that I wasn't bringing it with the same ferocity as Bill - who was almost as fast as Keith in the open class rally car - and whatever I did, I was gonna be slower. Kirk was giving me a close run for second, so I concentrated on keeping him at bay and running my own race.

So I inherited the lead when Bill and half the rest of the field debeaded on run 2. Was it pure dumb luck that I didn't debead? Nope. I backed off and took slower lines so that I wasn't headed sideways into ruts, with the knowledge that a DNF would screw me out of a podium and that I needed to drive 150 miles home that night and drive to work the next day. But by the fourth run, Kirk had got to within a second of me, so I had to amp it up a bit. I knew the course by then and was able to shave a few seconds off and maintain my lead, but I still wasn't driving all out.

Like I said in the other thread - I didn't win, Bill lost. That's not a terribly satisfying way of taking home a trophy.. but I dunno, I kinda feel like I drove a smart race in a way. There's something to be said for driving "fast enough".

So, to the rule. Is it fair? No, not really. As Bill said, you may as well be rolling a dice. A lot of rally is like that (think Marcus Gronholm ending his event in a brick wall on a tarmac rally one year simply because he was first on the road and therefore first to encounter a devilishly slippy corner). I guess the point is, don't DNF. But it would be nice to have a quantifiable penalty so you can calculate how much you want to risk.

Rallycross is not stage rally (obviously) but it's not auto-x either. There is absolutely a preservation factor in rallycross that is common to rally but that does not really exist in auto-x, and the rules should acknowledge that IMO.

I guess the fact that nobody's really brought it up before demonstrates that it's maybe not a huge deal and that this is an unusual situation.

I'd rather concentrate on a technical solution. (One not based on 'SLOW DOWN'.) I'm an engineer, not a lawyer.

Totally agree. I do not support "SLOW DOWN" or his accomplice "BE CAREFUL".

I don't want to hear that part of the sport is driving slower than my abilities on purpose because that's rally heritage.

Part of rallycross is driving within the car's ability to stay together on the surface on which you're running. Nothing to do with rally heritage, that's just physics at work.

[WAM]

Part of rallycross is driving within the car's ability to stay together on the surface on which you're running. Nothing to do with rally heritage, that's just physics at work.

Okay, I need to fess up here. I had no idea I was pushing the limits on that run. I've never debeaded before, and I have no idea why I did there and then. Even in 20/20 hindsite, I haven't a clue as to what I should have done differently. I never slide the car into corners. The front tracks where it's pointed and the "magic diff" puts the car into yaw all on its own. I guess that's the reason I reject 'slow down to win'. I'd have to slow down everywhere because I never see problems coming.

So the debead came without warning and seemed totally random to me. I don't have a strategy for random. Then on top of that I get the equivalent of a triple penalty, and on reflection think...that ought to change. But if it doesn't, no worries. Ever blind to the possibilities, I figure it will never happen again. Slow learner, huh? But for the reasons mentioned, I ain't backing off.

Getcha next time Phil -- congrats this time.

[rollo]

Okay, I need to fess up here. I had no idea I was pushing the limits on that run. I've never debeaded before, and I have no idea why I did there and then. Even in 20/20 hindsite, I haven't a clue as to what I should have done differently. I never slide the car into corners. The front tracks where it's pointed and the "magic diff" puts the car into yaw all on its own. I guess that's the reason I reject 'slow down to win'. I'd have to slow down everywhere because I never see problems coming.

So the debead came without warning and seemed totally random to me. I don't have a strategy for random. Then on top of that I get the equivalent of a triple penalty, and on reflection think...that ought to change. But if it doesn't, no worries. Ever blind to the possibilities, I figure it will never happen again. Slow learner, huh? But for the reasons mentioned, I ain't backing off.

So we'll put it down to "**** happens" then :D

Getcha next time Phil -- congrats this time.

I don't doubt it.. I gotta raise my game!

[bfrancis827]

All I can say is: don't run 11 PSI! That should help with the de-bead problem.

What! Who would do such a thing? Someone that was running on very little sleep and just assumed that since we got the car back together in time to race that everything else would work just fine.

Psst, it was me:lol2:

It was my first time de-beading also. I actually thought I de-beaded the rear tire because I came into a rut pretty sideways. I pulled over, got out and saw that the rear tire was fine and I was pissed because I could have kept going, but on my way back into the car I saw that the front tire was off. :crazy: Took a 30 second penalty for not checking tire pressure. I don't care too much because I know that I will not be competing in the rest of the season. Not sure if I would have gotten second, but I would have beat my sponsor:tongue:. Thanks again for spotting me Dave.

[Rally OBXT]

1st time debeading Bill? Wow, you have done well so far!! :)

I have debeaded too many times to count and the first time I debeaded I did not know how it happened either. But as I debeaded more and more, I learned how to avoid it and what causes it (on my car at least). I don't really debead anymore because I try and avoid it at all cost.

[SoCalBoomer]

Hey, maybe it's just me. I've made maybe 400 rally-x runs the last three years and always went for it. I don't want to hear that part of the sport is driving slower than my abilities on purpose because that's rally heritage. Ain't gonna happen.

And all my critics here seem to ignore my only issue is with the inconsistency of the penalty rule. If I debead, that's on me. But awarding someone triple penalty because someone else had a problem seem unjustifiable to me.

Oh, but we've always done it that way. That's okay then.

The DNF time was intended to penalize but to keep you relatively close. It has done that - it's more than a few cones but less than a DNS. LOL

It's not "driving slower than my abilities on purpose" but with Rally heritage in mind, it's "driving as fast as my abilities allow AND the road conditions permit"

Did you go to the December Fontana AutoX? Did you go full speed through the "water trap"? If you were there, then no, you didn't. Why not? because road conditions didn't permit it - you would have hydroplaned and not made the turn and would have ended up in 5 feet of water. . . :lol2: You would have driven the course as fast as you could, within the limits of the road.

That's what Rallycross is all about. . .

The problem with the penalty is that someone can limp across and get an artificially slow time which increases the individual penalty.

What about a couple of alternatives? Just off the top of my head:

1. Average of class runs (for that run) plus 10-15 seconds.
2. Weighted - drop the single slowest and run the slowest + :10 from that. This would eliminate the "limper" who artificially weights the penalty.

Anyway - cheers

[A1337STI]

Hey, maybe it's just me. I've made maybe 400 rally-x runs the last three years and always went for it. I don't want to hear that part of the sport is driving slower than my abilities on purpose because that's rally heritage. Ain't gonna happen.

And all my critics here seem to ignore my only issue is with the inconsistency of the penalty rule. If I debead, that's on me. But awarding someone triple penalty because someone else had a problem seem unjustifiable to me.

Oh, but we've always done it that way. That's okay then.

I also had my First De-Bead Ever at a rallyX after doing some 400ish runs (well maybe not that many only started in 2006!)

First i want to point out to you Bill, that one of your Wins last year was helped Greatly because of this rule and that J.stewart De-beaded when he was on pace to beat you (i can dig up the data if you'de like) :waving:

Also my De-bead was on my 2nd run, early into the run (same spot that got everyone) I ran the entire course except the last turn and i choose intentionally to DNF , Risking it would be a lower total time than finishing the run. It was a lower time, but i still got droped from 2nd place to 9th, but i Pressed on regardless and clawed my way back up to 3rd!

Also I do full stage rally and i do autoX. but rallyx is neither of those.

All that out of the way. I'de like to see a rule created to keep every event ran the same way. I prefer to have drivers Red flagged if they debead as it **could** be a safety issue, especially if the driver is unaware of the debead and you had a course worker running back to their station after a cone reset.

My proposed rule would be something like:
-----------------------------------------------
Workers are to Red flag any car with a deabead tire that is noticeable from their station or called into the radio. If the car is Past the last flagging station no action is to be taken by the course workers. If the driver pulls over and stops due to a debead he will be giving a re-run under the below rules. If the driver stops and does not have a debead he will be told to continue the run and they take their score as normal.

Any driver stopping for a debead will be awarded a re-run . Any cones they hit during their run will be added to their Re-run. If their re-run takes place during their run group they get a 15 second penalty. A Driver must be given at least 5 minutes to try and change tires or re-bead. (organizer may allot more time)
Any run (for your in class points) that takes place in a run group other than your assigned run group will occure a 30 second penalty.

that last line is important becuase it would then apply to people who show up late or for other reasons want to run out of class.


:flamedFlame On! I'm not sure if 15/30 are the correct numbers just throwing it out there.

[TylerSti]

As a person who has gotten a lot!! of De-beaded DNFS its just what separates the men from the boys. If you push it you may DNF. It makes winning that much sweeter. Every time I lost a tire I know i was driving to aggressively and to fast on a tire that was not designed for dirt in the first place. But, If i still have issues in Rally4 I will be all for changing the rules :)

[rollo]

Yikes. I'm getting my flamethrower out. :lol2:

Too complicated IMO. Rules have to be simple cos course workers need very simple instructions to follow - they may have never even seen a rallycross course - or a debead - before, never mind worked one.

If you can't continue, it's a DNF.

If you can continue but you're uber slow and causing a dangerous obstruction, you get flagged, probably as instructed by race control.

DNF penalty is up for discussion. I like average time of class plus 10. It's easy to understand.

[Johnny5]

I have been bitten in the ass a few times by debeads, mostly due to my wild driving. But is it fair that you go all out every single run, and then someone who putts along causes you to get penalized even more? Definitely not.

With this being an event rule, I always ask that they do not red flag debeads at the drivers meeting.. if a car is catching up.. obviously the only option is to red flag. But if you red flag me for a debead right when the debead occurs, thats retarded.

2 examples:
-vallejo eariler this year, I was 3/4 done with my run and debeaded a front right.. (running 55psi) I was red flagged immediately, even tho I was aware of the debead in the car.. and was still going for it.. I would have rather I destroyed the rim/tire/fender/bumper/liner than to be red flagged. I would have been top 2-3 in class, for sure if allowed to finish.. And there was no way anyone would have caught up to me.

-novemberfest this year, I debeaded my front left with 6-8 turns to go.. The people working the course did not red flag me and I was able to finish with decent time (and kept 1st in class). I was able to still go flat out on the left handed corners.. and the dmg was minimal.

[Rally OBXT]

I sorta like the idea of the average time of the class + 10, 15 or whatever seconds...but that would be a complete pain in the ass to calculate on the fly.

Let's do the math here:

10 cars in a class doing 4 runs each (6 runs at my events). That's 40 (or 60 at my events) times someone needs to punch a number into a calculator to figure out the average. This would take WAY too much time and the chance of human error when doing a calculation that long is high. This is too complicated unless you have software to calculate this for you.

Beyond being a pain in the ass to calculate, you could theoretically have a super slow driver in your class who debeads, but because the average time so much lower than his, he gets a faster run than he normally would have had. Crazy, but it could happen.

The great thing about the current system we use is that is is dead nuts simple. The bad part is that you could have someone in your class who is a slow driver, or they limp to the finish and therefore create a slow bogey time.

I am really liking the idea of your personal slowest time + "X" number of seconds. This way if you are a fast driver and getting good times, you will be punished based on your skill, not someone else's. This way is also very simple to calculate.

[WAM]

First i want to point out to you Bill, that one of your Wins last year was helped Greatly because of this rule and that J.stewart De-beaded when he was on pace to beat you (i can dig up the data if you'de like) :waving:

Hmmm, wanna bet? You're probably talking Vallejo. Better check your math. :tongue:

[A1337STI]

01:39.560 - 01:38.530 Versus 01:38.000 - 01:38.660 - 01:39.160 00:02.000

1.4 back after 2 runs and you coned your 3rd. i was riding with him on his 3rd and he was on pace for a 137 or 136 when he de-beaded.

I have in car of me driving a 138.2 also btw :twisted: So I stand by what i said. :guitarist:

I think keeping events more efficient would be best so a slight variation

My proposed rule would be something like:
-----------------------------------------------
Workers are to Red flag any car catching up with a slow car (if its due to a deabead tire so be it) Call in to hold the start. this should result in less Reruns and a more efficient event.

If the driver pulls over and stops due to a debead he will be giving a re-run under the below rules. If the driver stops and does not have a debead he will be told to continue the run and they take their score as normal.

Any driver stopping for a debead will be awarded a re-run . Any cones they hit during their run will be added to their Re-run. If their re-run takes place during their run group they get a 15 second penalty. A Driver must be given at least 5 minutes to try and change tires or re-bead. (organizer may allot more time)
Any run (for your in class points) that takes place in a run group other than your assigned run group will occure a 30 second penalty.

that last line is important becuase it would then apply to people who show up late or for other reasons want to run out of class.

[WAM]

01:39.560 - 01:38.530 Versus 01:38.000 - 01:38.660 - 01:39.160 00:02.000

me 1:38, 1:38, 1:39, 1:37
him 1:39, 1:38, dnf, 1:44
......+1..... 0.... nt....+7

Looks like I'm 8 seconds up ignoring his dnf run.

[bfrancis827]

I think penalties should be based off of your own times. As far as I know that is the way penalties work on the stages.

If you make a mistake like hitting a cone it means you were either not in complete control of the car or you were just not on the right line. Either way it is still a mistake and time penalties are added to your time. I think time penalties for DNF's should be the same way.

I think there have been times that people like TP have won events even after receiving a 10 minute penalty. I don't think that would happen if it was based off the slowest car in his class.

[Rally OBXT]

I completely disagree with giving a driver who debeads a tire a re-run. In a sense you are awarding someone for driving too aggressive for the conditions. Debeads slow down an event and should be avoided at all cost IMO. This is why a penalty for a debead is there in the 1st place.

In any other form of racing that I know of, if you debead a tire or have an equivalent mechanical failure (where you can't finish a run or complete a lap)...you are done. And when I say done I mean DONE, as in you don't even get a time. Do not pass go, do not collect $200, you don't finish the race. You end up dead last with a big old DNF by your name.

The fact that you even get assigned a penalty and get to keep fighting for some sort of finishing result in Rally X is beyond nice.

[WAM]

We say the organizers make the rules. But really it's the competitors. If they don't like the way a sport is run they go do something else. Our rules should be what WE want, not something based on other sports. And if the current rules meet that, fine. The question you need to decide is do you want a debead to end your day, or not? And adjust the rules if necessary.

I would vote no -- provide a reasonable rehabilitation option. But if 'yes' carries...no problem. And Dave has valid reasons for wanting to discourage debeads.

[rollo]

Few thoughts:

- Average time would only have to be calculated in the advent of a DNF, not for every run

- "Slowest personal" is okay but it means nobody knows what time the competitor got until they finish

- As Dave S points out, SuperRally rules allow you to restart after a mechanical failure

[eric_m48]

I'm not sure why the topic seems to be taboo, but if I were King for the Day, I would allow one run (assuming you get four/day) to be dropped. DNF's would just be DNF's, no adding 10 seconds, no figuring averages, etc... I agree with Bill (big surprise there, huh?) that we should do what's best for RallyX, not because it's what they do in Stage Rally, or what they do in Autocross. We are our own entity and should face rule making that way.

[rollo]

Del Mar did the "one dropped run" thing IIRC. Something like that anyway, it was definitely not "all runs count".

I think it comes down - as has been said - to a philosophical take on where rallycross comes from - i.e. is it auto-x on dirt or is it stage rally scaled down to auto-x size and entry requirements? In CA it really is the latter. Rallycross events have been run by CRS for decades - here it came from rally.

I'd hate to see it go to "fastest run" a la auto-x. One dropped run might encourage people to go for it a bit more, which could be exciting, but that also might lead to more incidents and a lot more running for cones and stuff. I dunno. I don't see it changing anyway to be honest, and I'm okay with that. The pressure to be consistently good is one of the most fun things about the sport IMO.

[SoCalBoomer]

Bill is correct, as far as it goes. Competitors do affect the rules with their feet (wheels) by showing or not showing.

I agree completely with Dave. If you DNF, you DNF, for whatever reason. If you get a re-run because you De-bead, you're being rewarded for mis-reading the conditions of the road and overdriving the road. Second reason for this - how often are we ALREADY going into the dark? You want to award MORE re-runs? LOL Midnight anyone? LOL

@Phil, I'm fairly sure Del Mar counted all runs. I know the second did, as I did all the scoring for it.


I meant Average to be WITHIN RUN so it would not be difficult to calculate and would be pretty immediate. I don't think it's fair to do it slowest overall within class. . . should be within run.


Let's also put it in context of other penalties.

Cones: 2 sec
Off course: 10 seconds per miss (i.e. 5 cones)

When I look at DNF penalties from last year (over GH1, GH2, Antioch - JV can't tell because it only says number of cones) the effective penalty ends up being 20-30 seconds typically (based on average of what the competitor was doing. . .)

Hmmm, looking back at it, it looks a LOT like the slowest + 10 is pretty good. . . Yes, it's going to take you out (so DON"T SCREW UP) but isn't that the point of a penalty?



One other little note about comparisons with Autocross - I've NEVER seen so many out of control spins at an event as I have at Fontana. :shootsself:

[Rally OBXT]

Few thoughts:

- Average time would only have to be calculated in the advent of a DNF, not for every run

- "Slowest personal" is okay but it means nobody knows what time the competitor got until they finish

So are you saying only average the times for that particular run?

Example:

10 drivers in class, 1 debeads. So you punch in the 9 good times into a calculator and come up with the average? Then add "X" number of seconds for penalty?

If that's the case, it's not too bad. It can still get complicated though in bigger classes like SM4 and my super slow guy example still holds true.

As for slowest personal time, I guess you don't really know until the competitor finishes all his runs. This could be anti-climactic in a way.

[Tommy Gun Rally]

We say the organizers make the rules. But really it's the competitors. If they don't like the way a sport is run they go do something else. Our rules should be what WE want, not something based on other sports. And if the current rules meet that, fine. The question you need to decide is do you want a debead to end your day, or not? And adjust the rules if necessary.

So far, it seems the majority are satisfied with the rules as they are now. If you debead, you lose time. If that just so happens to occur the same lap when someone else debeads and your time further suffers, I hate to say it, but tough patooties.

It's called force majeure, we deal with whatever comes our way. Key when dealing with majeure is - you win some, you lose some.

Like discussed in the tire debeading forum, the manner in which you drive has a lot to do with getting debeaded tires ESPECIALLY at Ridgecrest.
Those who have raced at Ridgecrest know that you can't drive 10/10ths or even 9/10th's on that course because of the severity of the ruts and the high probability of the resulting effects (debeading, going up on two wheels, even rolling - I was 30 feet away from that when it happened to a brand new WRX rallycar in 2003 - he was driving WAY too hot for that course). Adapting to course conditions and driving smartly -thats what helps you win.

At the end of the day, it's a rallycross. No one's getting discovered and moving on to a global driving career. Rallycross was always intended to be the more laid back and fun of the amateur motorsports, and preventing the rule book from getting heavier every year is evidence of that. Everyone is just there to have fun, maybe win a $5 trophy

Focusing on nothing but driving 110%, using rules and protests to help solve problems where there were none, and the 'winning no matter what' attitude, and you'll end up with a situation just as lame as is seen in the SCCA - see the SCCA 'National Championship' last year for what I mean.

[SoCalBoomer]

So are you saying only average the times for that particular run?

Example:

10 drivers in class, 1 debeads. So you punch in the 9 good times into a calculator and come up with the average? Then add "X" number of seconds for penalty?

If that's the case, it's not too bad. It can still get complicated though in bigger classes like SM4 and my super slow guy example still holds true.

We could modify the FRX program to do it that way, I'm fairly sure. Would be EASY to do in Excel.

That's what I was suggesting.

Could also "weight" it - kinda what they do with the judging in the Olympics - drop the fastest and slowest. That would get rid of that super slow guy. . .

[MarkA]

I was going to add something here but Eli just saved my keyboard the wear...thanks! :)

[WAM]

Could also "weight" it - kinda what they do with the judging in the Olympics - drop the fastest and slowest. That would get rid of that super slow guy. . .

That was kinda my original thinking. I like basing the penalty on your own times, but you can't do it in real time. Gotta wait until the end. Dropping fastest & slowest works better, but still involves math. Easiest would be take middle guy (median/low). That would be #2 of 3 or 4, #3 of 5 or 6, #4 of 7 or 8 etc. No math, no delays, no limp-ins.

[A1337STI]

me 1:38, 1:38, 1:39, 1:37
him 1:39, 1:38, dnf, 1:44
......+1..... 0.... nt....+7



1.4seconds after 2 runs Then he obviously Debeaded on his third and that's where my point is. Under a different Debead rule where he wasn't out of it He would have gone for a Fast time on Run #4 instead of going for show.

but if your Ego doesn't allow you to comprehend that, so be it i can tell when i'm talking to a wall.. so speak...

[A1337STI]

It might be the most Fruitful to first come to a conclusion on what should we do IF Competitor A Debeads and then we Start Competitor B who will catch A before the end of the course.

We can not safely allow B to catch A.
So what should we do? Red flag them both? or red flag B only and allow A to finish his run?

[A1337STI]

I completely disagree with giving a driver who debeads a tire a re-run. In a sense you are awarding someone for driving too aggressive for the conditions. Debeads slow down an event and should be avoided at all cost IMO. This is why a penalty for a debead is there in the 1st place.

Really? Even if its a Re-run with +15 seconds and all the cones you previously hit? is that a "reward" ?? would that really Encourage aggressive driving? :unamused:

[Rally OBXT]

Really? Even if its a Re-run with +15 seconds and all the cones you previously hit? is that a "reward" ?? would that really Encourage aggressive driving? :unamused:

I understand that he would still get a penalty, but giving them a re-run is still a form of award in my eyes. Plus it would make the day longer and delay things.

[rollo]

but if your Ego doesn't allow you to comprehend that, so be it i can tell when i'm talking to a wall.. so speak...

Whoa there.. let's not get too harsh here, I think we're just discussing rules not taking chunks out of each other.

It might be the most Fruitful to first come to a conclusion on what should we do IF Competitor A Debeads and then we Start Competitor B who will catch A before the end of the course.

We can not safely allow B to catch A.
So what should we do? Red flag them both? or red flag B only and allow A to finish his run?

In my experience a red flag condition is full course, i.e. everyone flags and everyone stops.

Plus it would make the day longer and delay things.

And complicate them. I think that's the crux of the matter.

[SoCalBoomer]

that's half of the crux of the matter.

[lminette]

I think the best idea I've heard so far is taking the competitors slowest time and adding 20-30 seconds. This is easiest to do and I believe accomplishes the goal. All the weighted things and blah blah blah over complicate everything. We have a hard enough time getting people to hang for results/awards and this needs to be a simple matter so we're not trying to figure it out to give results/awards.

[UP2MTNS]

this is a good discussion, and I think its good to re-visit rules every now and then, but I know that I for one, will not change how I run events based on one person's complaint.

(this is NOTHING again Bill...obviously I respect you Bill and this isn't a dig at your ideas/or thread).

BUT, if this was a rookie that started this thread, and Ridgecrest was his/her first event and he was complaining about the rule because he de-beaded and didn't win, well...I think this thread would have gone a very different direction. (well, if it was a girl, and she was kind of cute, we'd probably fall all over ourselves with rule changes and proposals, but I digress...:D )


At the end of the day, Rally Cross is about FINISHING ALL your runs, adding them up, and the smartest, most consistent driver wins.

Not finishing for WHATEVER reason...debead, flat, suspension breaks, overheating, off-course, etc...constitutes a DNF.

That's a bit harsh for this level of racing, which is why the DNF = worst time in class + 10 seconds supp reg was created so that even if you don't finish a run (or even drop out entirely), you can still get 'a time' and if that puts you in 5th place, then at least you still get some points towards the series.

It rewards patience, skill, car-prep, and the value of "If you want to win, first you have to finish." <---which I think is a great Stage Rally motto that should be brought into RallyX.

In the last 3 years I've been rallyX'ing, no one has ever complained about this rule.

IMHO.

[bue car]

i am new to this, however, i feel the curent rules for DNF's are fine. just my opinion.

i debeaded with rally tires at 35-36 psi. i drove thru a turn wrong, and bam, but, I finnished the run. had I not, my time would have been 4 second longer if i stopped. where is the fun in that? haha my own driver error.

[WAM]

Well I've got nothing to add. Only a few of you seemed to understand that the concern was with defining a penalty based on unrelated third party situations. So while everything you said Jon was well written and correct...it was prettymuch off point. I was hoping to improve our rules, but this is a tough crowd.

[UP2MTNS]

defining a penalty based on unrelated third party situations.

but as I mentioned earlier, a de-bead is not an "unrelated 3rd party situation." Its definitely directly tied to the driver and equipment, which is part of the race and 100% controller by said driver (ie, your solution for modding your rims to prevent de-beads...)


now, had a dog ran across the track an messed you up...absolutely....out of control 'force majeure' and asking for a re-run is not out of the question.

[WAM]

but as I mentioned earlier, a de-bead is not an "unrelated 3rd party situation." Its definitely directly tied to the driver and equipment, which is part of the race and 100% controller by said driver

I'm not understanding you or you're not understanding me. Correct, the debead is not an unrelated 3rd party thing -- the size of the penalty is. It can vary from 15 to 50-some seconds. And that variation has nothing to do with the driver who debeads.

And I've never suggested that a debead should result in a rerun. Just that the penalty be uniform and consistent.

[bue car]

Why not add 15 second to said person's worst run and not the class? keeps 3rd party intervals out...

[UP2MTNS]

I'm not understanding you or you're not understanding me. Correct, the debead is not an unrelated 3rd party thing -- the size of the penalty is. It can vary from 15 to 50-some seconds. And that variation has nothing to do with the driver who debeads.

And I've never suggested that a debead should result in a rerun. Just that the penalty be uniform and consistent.


ohh....ok, that's the part I missed. BUT, I still think the penalty makes sense...simply because it rewards people who finish over people who DNF for whatever reason.

George finished, Barry didn't....Barry's score shouldn't be any better than George's and 'worst +10sec' guarantees that. Its less about punishing Barry, but making sure George gets 'rewarded' for finishing the run.


again, I see you're point....but for the most part, its kind of semantics. Right now everyone understands the 'worst + 10sec' rule, its set up in the FRX software, not gonna mess with it.

[Newk_Rally]

^this is exactly how is see no matter how fast you are you shouldn't get a faster time than someone who finishes^

[Tommy Gun Rally]

^this is exactly how is see no matter how fast you are you shouldn't get a faster time than someone who finishes^
end of argument.

[lminette]

^^^ Agreed! At least it should be at any rate! Didn't Bill concede a long time ago? He's gonna engineer his own solution so everything should just be left as is.

[SoCalBoomer]

Cheers! This penalty has stood the test of time and has worked. Keep it unless you can show definitively that it doesn't work.

When I went through all (ALL) of last year's results that I could get my hands on, I didn't find any 50 second penalties - most were between 15-30 seconds with a couple at 40. . . no 50. . .

btw - can't find anything about restarts (super-rally) in NASA; I read that WRC is dropping it this year, waiting for the RA rulebook to download to search through it. . . anyway, seems the topic is finished. :D

[UP2MTNS]

'super rally' is a USRC thing, not NASA or RA. So its a 'series rule', not sanctioning body.

At Gorman, by CRS rules, I DNF'd and got no CRS points. By USRC, I finished under Super Rally rules and go USRC points. Weird.

More importantly, I got co-efficient experience points.

[SoCalBoomer]

So I found where to look, LOL

Just as a reference, the USRC Super-rally rule is NOT based on your performance, it is a 5 minute penalty added to the fastest time in class . . . so it's also based on a "third party" - it's a killer penalty.

The crew will be penalized with a 5-minute penalty added to the fastest time in the competitor's class for each missed stage that shall include special stage or Super Special Stage on which the crew retired.

[rollo]

I'm not understanding you or you're not understanding me. Correct, the debead is not an unrelated 3rd party thing -- the size of the penalty is. It can vary from 15 to 50-some seconds. And that variation has nothing to do with the driver who debeads.

And I've never suggested that a debead should result in a rerun. Just that the penalty be uniform and consistent.

The point being that you know (or you're in control of) how much you're risking when you drive. Yeah I can see that. I guess that just has to translate into "worst case scenario, I could be completely SOL if I debead, or if I'm lucky, not so much".

If we (someone) can engineer a solution where we don't end up with ruts, so much the better, I'm all for that.

[WAM]

If we (someone) can engineer a solution where we don't end up with ruts, so much the better, I'm all for that.

Oregon region has it licked. Throw so much water on the course that it's all a mucky soup. Even if there were ruts that didn't dissolve, you're going so slow you won't feel them. Careful what you wish for.

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/8901/muddyoregon.jpg

[rollo]

Bah. It was you that said you'd engineer a solution :D

[WAM]

To survive the ruts, not eliminate them. And yeah, fix #1 is stacked in my driveway waiting to be reinstalled on the car. Fix #2 & 3 are on the drawing board. Of course I won't know if I need them until I've screwed up another event.

[rollo]

Ohhhhhhh..... I thought you were talking about engineering a better way to keep the course from rutting up.

So you added a beadlock of some kind?

[pomspeed]

"If you want to win, first you have to finish."

Here you go Jon, fix'rd

"To finish first, first you have to finish":twisted:

[WAM]

Ohhhhhhh..... I thought you were talking about engineering a better way to keep the course from rutting up.

So you added a beadlock of some kind?

You posted on the debead thread in rally-x preparation where I described which bead glues I used in addition to tubes. That was the quick & easy fix. Used different adhesives as a test. We'll see which do best.

But I have sketched up an internal double beadlock that could be retrofitted to rally wheels. Anyone want to try it, I'll provide the sketch and instructions. But you better be able to mount your own tires. Or show up at the tire shop with a couple cases of beer. It's going to take a little trial & error...especially the first time. Easy to build, probably a bitch to install.

I also made contact with a custom offroad wheel builder about making a rally car version of his rock crawler wheel. Which is also double-beadlocked. He must not be too interested since he didn't get back to me.