Why modern WRC sucks

[noisycricket]

http://www.motorsportmad.com/view/1358/rally-finland-1991

1991 Rally Finland. (Note Subaru content: those Legacies are just about the same size as a GD, and 40mm restrictor not 34 or 32)

They look like the drivers actually are working for a living, as opposed to modern WRC where it looks like the cars are driving on rails and maybe the driver only has to worry about spilling his latte on his suit while he reads the paper. Blah blah boring.

[I Like It Sideways]

Carlos Sainz absolutely flew in that celica...
It really looks difficult to drive those cars.

Amazing display of skill, thats for dang sure.

[409industries]

yes... they really do look difficult to drive. The legacies sound sweet!

[Rallycat66]

Those are the FUN cars. No fancy diffs, no hydrolic gear boxes. You had to drive the car!

But if you want difficult to drive, go back another 10 - 15 years to the Group 4 days.

[Rallycat66]

And if you want working for a living...

Try this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBR5CEc8hxQ

Jean Ragnotti in a Renault Clio - 1995. Who says front wheel drives are slow? :?

[noisycricket]

And if you want working for a living...

Try this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBR5CEc8hxQ

Jean Ragnotti in a Renault Clio - 1995. Who says front wheel drives are slow? :?

If that video is what I think it is, I use it as inspiration to keep the Golf. :D (A2 chassis 8v, only uses three wheels at a time)

I'm busy downloading scads of videos that i *used* to have but got corrupted... sadly half of 'em aren't hosted anymore, lots were from places like rallyalbum.hu :( Throw a Hungarian in a Lada Riva and put him on a stage road and look out!

Group 4... that's kind of my speed, actually, and why I continue to play with rear drive stuff, even though FWD is faster. But even they didn't look as crazy as the Group A cars of the post-B era.

edit: Nope, that wasn't the video... this is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcTnUbkJuUs for some reason this isn't in my favorites list any longer! need to fix that

[I Like It Sideways]

And if you want working for a living...

Try this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBR5CEc8hxQ

Jean Ragnotti in a Renault Clio - 1995. Who says front wheel drives are slow? :?




I can't believe how well he throws it into such blind corners.

[noisycricket]

I can't believe how well he throws it into such blind corners.

The Golf is like that on tarmac, you almost can't enter a corner too hot. You can brake super hard mid-corner and it pitches the car a little sideways and it just sorta slows down and corners tighter, the only hard part is learning not to do that, since corners can be taken a lot faster than you think you can, and it takes forever to get momentum back.

Oh that and holding yourself in the seat, it's like sitting on a barrel with a chunk of plywood nailed to it for a seatback, and the steering is slo-o-oow.

But taking an interchange at 80mph and discovering that it turns into a 90 degree like *right now*, just keep cornering and mash the brake pedal, it slows down, leans more, and gets a little sideways, and around you go. Nice thing about weighing barely 2200lb and no mass in the rear. Downside is that it's a bitch to drive on dirt...

[BlackParis]

Not WRC, but....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9BmDY-5ork

Quite potent in the Scottish Rally Championship.... Against other 2wd cars....

[Rallycat66]

And if you want working for a living...

Try this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBR5CEc8hxQ

Jean Ragnotti in a Renault Clio - 1995. Who says front wheel drives are slow? :?




I can't believe how well he throws it into such blind corners.

That is total commitment to the notes for you. Ragnotti is one of my all time favorite drivers (I'd probably have to put Tony Pond on the top though) - completely committed and could drive the wheels off those little Renaults. In that video, you have to love the massive oversteer into the corners, then MAJOR understeer coming out. He's working his tail off to go that fast.

Too bad they got rid of the Maxi category in WRC. Those were some insane little cars. But the AWD WRC spec manufacturers didn't like getting beat by FWD cars on the tarmac. :P

Group B was still the wildest stuff to watch just because they were so bloody brutal about it. The Group A cars were fast and always sideways, very exciting too, but the current WRC cars? They are still fun to watch, but they just don't have that flair anymore. They need a clean driving style to get the most out of them.

Tim

[noisycricket]

Not WRC, but....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9BmDY-5ork

Quite potent in the Scottish Rally Championship.... Against other 2wd cars....

1 minute mark. One of my favorite rally clips ever.

Max braking downhill, MAX BRAKING DOWNHILL... *hook*, accelerate uphill, get air over crest.

[ankyle62]

Not WRC, but....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9BmDY-5ork

Quite potent in the Scottish Rally Championship.... Against other 2wd cars.... that was some great driving

[409industries]

Not WRC, but....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9BmDY-5ork

Quite potent in the Scottish Rally Championship.... Against other 2wd cars.... that was some great driving

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: awesome!

[BlackParis]

...

:D

I Love that video.. BUT... Back to the topic....

Yes, Group A cars were hard to drive (mad understeer yo), but WRC Rules aren't much different from Group A Rules... Group A was intended for Private Entries... Manufacturers started to pull out *Cough Lancia Cough* WRC was started to open the rules back up to NEW technologies, and to get the manufacturers back into the scene...

in 96-98 there were only 3 manufacturers with season points... Subaru, Mitsu, and Ford ... 1999 7 manufacturers, and now back to 6 for several seasons....

Today its back down to 3 manufacturers; Ford, Citroen, and Subaru... I would expect there to be a rule change soon to maybe try to bring some manufacturers back into the game, as the costs of competition are getting to high...

[noisycricket]

...
I would expect there to be a rule change soon to maybe try to bring some manufacturers back into the game, as the costs of competition are getting to high...

Look up "Super 2000" aka S2000. It's like Super 1600, only with 2 liter engines, 8200 (I think) RPM rev limits, spec gearboxes (no $150k stuff), and the cars are AWD but can have a two wheel drive base. And... they can run in Group N, which is Subaru and Mitsubishi since about forever.

A N/A 2 liter engine running only up to 8200 can still make WRC peak power, just no gut-busting torque curve.

[BlackParis]

...
I would expect there to be a rule change soon to maybe try to bring some manufacturers back into the game, as the costs of competition are getting to high...

Look up "Super 2000" aka S2000. It's like Super 1600, only with 2 liter engines, 8200 (I think) RPM rev limits, spec gearboxes (no $150k stuff), and the cars are AWD but can have a two wheel drive base. And... they can run in Group N, which is Subaru and Mitsubishi since about forever.

A N/A 2 liter engine running only up to 8200 can still make WRC peak power, just no gut-busting torque curve.

I know what they are... Thats not what I was talking about in the quote... FIA has ALWAYS changed the trules every 10-15 years to increase the popularity of the sport and to curb for new technologies, and adjusts for costs, etc....

I thought we were comparing modern WRC, not being as interesting, well WRC is based off Group A rules (which the origional post video showed group A in 91)... Mitsubishi was running Group A homologation/rules up to the Evo VI (2001)... where as WRC Homologation/rules started in 1997... And the EVO VI WAS still really competetive in 2001, despite being on much stricter rules.... Tommi Makkinen won for 4 years straight in the EVO... 96-99 Not on WRC Homologation...

But then thats where mitsubishi fell... They Perfected the Group A car and when they had decided to switch to WRC the other manufactuers had 4 years of developement over them.... Mistubishi was trying to catch up, spent too much, and had to withdraw from WRC, cause they could not afford to keep trying.... They just weren't making money, cause they weren't winning.... Thats the way I see why they left... Skoda too...

The 3 manufactuers left are: Ford, Citroen, and Subaru.... Ford has been rallying NONSTOP since the 1970s... Ford PRIDES itself on its Rally herritage, doubt they will EVER pull out, Despite only winning 2 manufactuers cups in 30 years.... And Subaru, Is all about Rally, if they pulled out, they would go back down the poopshoot, as rally is their claim to fame... Citroen got lucky the last 3 years with Sebastian Loeb and Carlos Sainz.. They has funded them this far, they probably wont pull out untill they have lost for several years in a row, if that happens...

What I was saying is that FIA MUST be noticing that half of the Manufactuers pulled out of Rally Efforts last 2 years... There will probably be a rule change to make the rules LESS open, so that manufactuers can afford to come back.... It may happen, it may not...

[noisycricket]

I thought we were comparing modern WRC, not being as interesting, well WRC is based off Group A rules (which the origional post video showed group A in 91)...

When Group A started getting too expensive, because of the restrictions imposed by having to run homologated parts, they dusted off Group S, a concept that died when Group B was killed. WRC is basically Group S. WRC was supposed to be cheaper than GpA... :D

There will probably be a rule change to make the rules LESS open, so that manufactuers can afford to come back.... It may happen, it may not...

Open rules almost always means cheaper. The more you restrict the rules, the more expensive it will cost to be competitive. Look ay autocrossing... one of the most expensive classes is STOCK class, because you're basically only allowed to do shocks, tires, and front sway bar, so you invest in some seriously expensive shocks (like, one corner costs more than my entire rallycross budget 2004-present), life-out your (expensive, autocross-only) tires fairly quickly, replace items in the car when they're 5% "done" instead of 25% or 50%, and start out with the best car in your class and be prepared to sell it off at a loss and buy the next Good Car as it becomes apparent. When you're only allowed to do so much, you have to do it *all the way*.


Look at Group B... you could do so much more than Group 4, and they weren't faster by the same margin. They restricted things to Group A... which got faster, so they restricted the rules further... and then gave us WRC, and kept restricting things further. Now we have cars with standard diffs and so throttled by the restrictors that the crews complain about holding up traffic in transits, but they're super fast because of the suspension and tire technology.

Jean Ragnotti set a stage record in his Group B Renault back in the day. He beat it with a S1600 car! Difference, the S1600 car is much more restricted, so there was much more development time into the remaining areas, so it was faster overall.

[409industries]

I would expect there to be a rule change soon to maybe try to bring some manufacturers back into the game, as the costs of competition are getting to high...

Its already in the works. The 2009 WRC season is going to have 12 events as opposed to 16, to try and lure some more manufacturers back into the game.

http://www.dirtyimpreza.com/index.php/news/article/fia_announces_downsizing_future_wrc_events/

The ’09 campaign will feature just 12 events, down from 16 this season. The excessive number of rallies has been given by some automakers, most notoriously Mitsubishi and Skoda, as the justification for the end of their factory-backed involvement in the sport.

Many companies have claimed that the cost of running a full season is just way to much and have pulled out of the WRC (cough cough Mistu... cough Peugeot...) I read that accomidations alone for subaru is upwards of $64,000 per event! Thats a ton of money right there just for a place to lodge your crew, not to mention some months have 2 events. I mean seriously, its going to be "cut back" but still 1 event per month, worldwide? thats a logistical nightmare. Hopefully the reduction of stops on the WRC will draw other teams back and give us some more variety in the pack. Hell id even like to see Skoda back in there too!

[BlackParis]

Open rules almost always means cheaper. The more you restrict the rules, the more expensive it will cost to be competitive. Look ay autocrossing... one of the most expensive classes is STOCK class, because you're basically only allowed to do shocks, tires, and front sway bar, so you invest in some seriously expensive shocks (like, one corner costs more than my entire rallycross budget 2004-present), life-out your (expensive, autocross-only) tires fairly quickly, replace items in the car when they're 5% "done" instead of 25% or 50%, and start out with the best car in your class and be prepared to sell it off at a loss and buy the next Good Car as it becomes apparent. When you're only allowed to do so much, you have to do it *all the way*.


Look at Group B... you could do so much more than Group 4, and they weren't faster by the same margin. They restricted things to Group A... which got faster, so they restricted the rules further... and then gave us WRC, and kept restricting things further. Now we have cars with standard diffs and so throttled by the restrictors that the crews complain about holding up traffic in transits, but they're super fast because of the suspension and tire technology.

Jean Ragnotti set a stage record in his Group B Renault back in the day. He beat it with a S1600 car! Difference, the S1600 car is much more restricted, so there was much more development time into the remaining areas, so it was faster overall.

Totally agree with you...

But the rules being sooo open is why Mitsu Couldn't afford to research (due to being more open)... they just couldn't get the wins they needed to get the funds to research more (to stay competetive), like Subaru Citroen and Ford have been (as they have much more research already done with WRC, Mitsu would take a while just to catch up to what they had)...

Even with Auto-x like your example.... Yes you mod to your limit, but you get into classes such as SM or EP... And there basicly is NO limit... You could spends Hundreds of Thousands on making your auto-x car just .1 second faster if you chose to mod it that far into the "almost open" rules... Granted thats Auto-x, and the prestige isn't there to do so... But If I remember correctly, WRC is the #2 watched Motorsport in the world, next to F1.... Cart in 3rd.... Thats alot of prestige to win... WRC HAS to be up there in the MILLIONS per .1 second faster range as far as development/research goes... Reasoning to why smaller manufacturers had to drop out...

A Big change in the rules, would Allow everyone to start over, approximately on step one more manufacturers would jump in give it a try, exactly what has happened in the past with every big rule change..... Obviously only the winners can afford to stick with it...

[BlackParis]

I would expect there to be a rule change soon to maybe try to bring some manufacturers back into the game, as the costs of competition are getting to high...

Its already in the works. The 2009 WRC season is going to have 12 events as opposed to 16, to try and lure some more manufacturers back into the game.

http://www.dirtyimpreza.com/index.php/news/article/fia_announces_downsizing_future_wrc_events/

The ’09 campaign will feature just 12 events, down from 16 this season. The excessive number of rallies has been given by some automakers, most notoriously Mitsubishi and Skoda, as the justification for the end of their factory-backed involvement in the sport.

Many companies have claimed that the cost of running a full season is just way to much and have pulled out of the WRC (cough cough Mistu... cough Peugeot...) I read that accomidations alone for subaru is upwards of $64,000 per event! Thats a ton of money right there just for a place to lodge your crew, not to mention some months have 2 events. I mean seriously, its going to be "cut back" but still 1 event per month, worldwide? thats a logistical nightmare. Hopefully the reduction of stops on the WRC will draw other teams back and give us some more variety in the pack. Hell id even like to see Skoda back in there too!

:FU:

Never read that before... But yeah I knew someone @ FIA had to start wondering how to attract more manufacturers ;) Guess I'm not the only person to spot it.... They've done it before, Why not do it again ;)

[409industries]

They've done it before, Why not do it again ;)

amen brotha

[Drew84]

Not only where the legacys the size of a GD the Mitsu Galants where the size of a Lancer. It seems as every car evoloves it gets bigger and heavier.