SCCA RallyCross National Championship in CO!

[UP2MTNS]

TOPEKA, Kan. (June 1, 2009) – Registration for the 2009 RallyCross National Championship, to be held in Fountain, Colo., on Oct. 9 – 11, goes live on www.scca.com (http://www.scca.com), today, June 1. The event promises three days of great driving on an unparalleled surface.

For the third installment of the RallyCross National Championship, the US Truck Driving School, located 25 minutes south of Colorado Springs, Colo., has been chosen as the site. The spot is a prime location for the event, with a great surface and enough room for two courses, all in the shadow of Pikes Peak. The Colorado Region is already heavily involved in RallyCross, often drawing crowds of 50-plus cars to the area for events.

“In addition to a rock solid surface, our Fountain site offers us the opportunity to operate two courses simultaneously,” event chairman Ken Cashion said. “We plan to divide the field into four groups: SF with SA, SR with PF, PR and PA, then M2 and M4. Running two groups on each course will ensure plenty of runs.

“The site is gravel over hard pack. Traction can vary from nearly tarmac to ball bearings from one end of the course to the other. If wet, the surface will be slippery, but not muddy.”

Rain is always a possibility, as Colorado weather is best described as unpredictable. Officials are advising participants to prepare wisely for all the elements.

A new feature of this year’s event is an evening Test and Tune on Saturday. “This will be run as a standalone event, so bring your rally lights for some extra fun,” Cashion said.

Online registration for the 2009 RallyCross National Championship is available at www.scca.com (http://www.scca.com), by clicking on the green “Rally” tab at the top of the page and then selecting “RallyCross National Championship” from the left-hand menu. A link to online registration is available from the event page, as well as a PDF entry form to download should entrants prefer to mail or fax their form. Drivers who register before Sept. 25 are entitled to a $40 discount on entry.

“It is my impression that the SCCA RallyCross National Events have been improving every year,” concludes Cashion. “Many of the key members of the Colorado program have attended each of the finale events, and many of us have traveled far outside our region to attend other national-level events. Every year the bar has been raised, and we're very excited to have the opportunity to take it to the next level. We're particularly looking forward to drawing the Best from the West.”

For more information on the 2009 RallyCross National Championship, visit www.scca.com/rally (http://www.scca.com/rally). anyone going?

[pomspeed]

I've waited for this since Tennessee last year. It's why I had spoken up for it since 2007 in Hastings, a chance for the west coast to attend. I seem to recall some smack talk between the coasts. Now it's our turn to see who's willing to drive from the east coast. Besides, I need some redemption from TN. woohoo 5th place.

[Johnny5]

Hrmm, the only question is how mad would my gf get if I went to this and prescott in the same month. I might be looking for a new place to live soon.. :crazy:

[A1337STI]

niice. well i have a spare room if that happens...

[Rally OBXT]

Oh man I would LOVE to do this. I don't even know what class I would be LOL!

[pomspeed]

Dave, What are the mods to your car? Shocks? You've run rally tires on your car before, right? Didn't you do the Gravel Crew R4 event? So then you could run RP4. Something I'm still trying to get SCCA to see that they are missing a class, Street Mod. mod cars on street tires.

[WAM]

Now it's our turn to see who's willing to drive from the east coast.

Afraid you may have that backwards Brent. More like how many will come from the west coast. Note that Oregon and FRX have scheduled local events that same weekend.

[LGT-FST]

I'll be attending and I live on the Atlantic ocean. So I hope the boys from the oc will bring their best game. Not bringing the Audi, will have to slum it and drive a certain red Evo. As far as same dates no scca regions should be holding events the same weekend as the National Championships. Lord of the Rings:eek:

[pomspeed]

Bill, are you gonna go? I know you've gone to Oregon for the last 2 years for the Hillsboro events. Family ties make that an easy decision. The old conversation about Nats location was complaints that it wasn't closer to the west coast. Now it will be, so to schedule events close to or on the same weekend was a choice. Too bad, Warren wants to race the west coasts best. Sadly, if the west coast chooses not to participate, the argument for it to return in the future will be hard to justify. I've been fortunate to be able to go all the way to Tennessee. Now the trip is only to Colorado. No excuse not to make it.

Good to hear from you Warren. Yep, the smack talking that included you and those certain Socal folks was what I was referring too. Is Justin attending with you also? I've had the chance to see all of you race and, from what I've seen, sorry Socal, but I think the edge will go to Warren in R4. Now if Brian, from Norcal goes, it may be a toss up.

[WAM]

Actually I plan to go twice...sorta. I saw they were putting on a 2-day event at their national site the week before I leave for the solo nationals in Lincoln. (Aug 22/23) Since I have a 2-car trailer, I'm going to hit them on the way out.

And I'll be back out again for the October RX Nationals.

[LGT-FST]

Hi Brett, good to hear from you. Justin will not be attending, after last years tabackle he will not travel. It will be tough to grasp a new surface real quick when there are so many fast guys in the Colorado region knowing the surface. We may have some m2 guys from New England making the trek west. Good luck, Warren:eek:

[pomspeed]

Cool Bill, kill 2 birds with one stone, eh. The Lincoln site is huge. Have you figured what you'll run at Co? I'm not sure yet.

Warren, sorry to hear Justin won't be out. It's always fun to adapt to a new surface, I may try to go to an event before hand. Look forward to seeing you out there. Scott and I had a good ole time talking about "stuff" at Vegas.

[katnip]

Something I'm still trying to get SCCA to see that they are missing a class, Street Mod. mod cars on street tires.

rallyx DOES NOT need any more classes. PERIOD.:pissed: one too many already.

[UP2MTNS]

SCCA rallycross DOES NOT need any more classes. PERIOD.:pissed: one too many already.

fixed ;)

[SoCalBoomer]

rallyx DOES NOT need any more classes. PERIOD.:pissed: one too many already.

It would be to eliminate a few (3) of the pretty redundant classes that already exist :jack: and put one in there that is actually useful! :headbang:

Oh man I would LOVE to do this. I don't even know what class I would be LOL!

Glen Helen (CRS/FRX) is scheduled for that weekend - was moved to that date due to facility restrictions. Only date that could be gotten. :unamused:

[UP2MTNS]

btw, since when is CO considered 'west cost'? lol

[MarkA]

btw, since when is CO considered 'west cost'? lol

Probably by the same people who think that RallyX needs a "National Series"
http://www.sccabb.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=8173&PN=1 :roll:

[pomspeed]

So, who else from the DI community is going to go?

[UP2MTNS]

I'd like to, but that's a long-ass haul...and too close to Prescott.

[Rally OBXT]

GH3 is that weekend

[MarkA]

If a certain racer of questionable sportsmanship shows up, will anyone feel the need to put a chicane in the course for "safety" just before he runs and then remove it for everyone else to ensure that said chicane doesn't get too rutted ? It seems that doing anything to make the course "safer" was clearly ruled legal on appeal last year...:muhaha:

[SoCalBoomer]

If a certain racer of questionable sportsmanship shows up, will anyone feel the need to put a chicane in the course for "safety" just before he runs and then remove it for everyone else to ensure that said chicane doesn't get too rutted ? It seems that doing anything to make the course "safer" was clearly ruled legal on appeal last year...:muhaha:

that certain racer is one reason why I am not mourning the fact that GH3 ended up on top of Nats.

(((PRIMARY reason why I am not worried is that I'm more interested in our local program, which is where the 95% race, than in a National which gets the 5% and little positive exposure.)))

[A1337STI]

If a certain racer of questionable sportsmanship shows up, will anyone feel the need to put a chicane in the course for "safety" just before he runs and then remove it for everyone else to ensure that said chicane doesn't get too rutted ? It seems that doing anything to make the course "safer" was clearly ruled legal on appeal last year...:muhaha:


Yeah that sounds like some really bad sportsmanship ... :(

That's like intentionally telling someone you don't know which way the course goes, when you do know, now what father/son team did that to me last year at ridgecrest ... hmmm...

[Rally OBXT]

^^ get there early and walk the course and you won't have a problem ;)

[SoCalBoomer]

Yeah that sounds like some really bad sportsmanship ... :(

That's like intentionally telling someone you don't know which way the course goes, when you do know, now what father/son team did that to me last year at ridgecrest ... hmmm...

now change that from "someone" to a member of the National Board and the chair of the National Rules Committee - who shall still remain un-named and you've got the reason for the backlash. . .

[UP2MTNS]

Yeah that sounds like some really bad sportsmanship ... :(

That's like intentionally telling someone you don't know which way the course goes, when you do know, now what father/son team did that to me last year at ridgecrest ... hmmm...

alex, if you were in my class, I'd have no trouble telling you to drive around the wrong side of the bridge ;)

I'm still trying to get Brian Francis to driver over that land-mine :punch:

[enginerd]

Well, here we are ladies and gentleman. It's less than two months away from this years RallyX Nationals. The event is being held in my hometown and I will defeniltey be there rockin' DI stickers and throwing my Wagon's fat-ass around in the dirt.

Link to SCCA:
http://www.scca.com/event.aspx?hub=2&event=14127

There is also a Subaru contingency program for this event with good payouts.

Who's coming to show the 'lower-class' rally circuit how Subies get the dirtiest!!;-)

[enginerd]

Well I stupid. I started a thread in the SCCA RallyCross subforum without checking out the general 'Sanctioned Motorsports' forum first.

FORUM MODERATOR...I can't figure out how to delete that obsolete thread. Feel free to delete it for me. Thanks.

Anyways...I'll be there, rockin' DI stickers of course, and throwing my Wagon's fat-ass around in the dirt. I live 20 minutes from the site so it would be dumb to not enter. Trying to find some used 16" gravel tires for the event.

Subaru has a contingency program for this event, with some good payouts.

Hope to see more DI members there!!!

[bzzbee2]

Well, last years event was around 2000 mile haul for me. This year is looking to be about 1200 miles. West coast or not. I think i would rather play with the local boys.

[rollo]

FORUM MODERATOR...I can't figure out how to delete that obsolete thread. Feel free to delete it for me. Thanks.

I moved it in here since it had a link.

IMO the concept of a national championship is kinda crazy - driving 2400 miles to compete in a rallycross is just not even an option for me. Hell, making it to Ridgecrest is a major achievement :D

I presume the "nationals" concept is cloned from auto-x? Thing is, auto-x is SCCA-sanctioned all over and has massive attendance. Rallycross is a completely different animal, despite sharing the "cone course" approach. Differently sanctioned, classed and run in various places, seemingly locked in a perpetual struggle to survive, much harder to put on events and maintain venues. Strong regional programs are what it needs, IMO. A national championship seems premature.

It's a geocentric viewpoint of course. I'm sure that an SCCA National championship means more when you compete (and earn points) regularly under the SCCA banner. I never have though...

So.. I daresay all us SoCal boys are indeed super slow in comparison, but it doesn't look like we'll ever really find out for sure does it?

[pomspeed]

Phil, definitely following the concept of SCCA solo2, minus the attendance. I have attended the solo2 Nats when they were excited about the attendance topping 1,000. Beings that program has been around for more than 2 decades, rallycross appeals to me because we have the opportunity to shape this sport for the next 2 decades. Was it worth it to drive to Tennessee to "earn" 5th place, you bet. Did I have to take a serious stand to make sure this year was in Colorado, you bet. Will things be all peachy for this young sport, not if people don't try to work together. I know there are plenty of people on here and on the west coast that say they aren't going because of things that happened last year, that's too bad. I did drive to Tennessee, and am still willing to support the future of this sport knowing that things aren't perfect, but I'll try my best to ensure that others enjoy this sport if I can help it.


Smack talk portion:
As for the Socal boys, you aren't supposed to smack talk yourselves, that's Warrens job aka LOR LGT-FST. He and Dave or Louie, I don't remember who had started some smack talk prior to last years Nats. He'll be in Colorado borrowing a car, hopefully Socal will be able to attend and give those east coasters a chance to see who is quicker.

If all goes well, I'll be at Cal City and San Diego before heading to Colorado.

Norcal Rules!!!

[rollo]

Phil, definitely following the concept of SCCA solo2, minus the attendance. I have attended the solo2 Nats when they were excited about the attendance topping 1,000. Beings that program has been around for more than 2 decades, rallycross appeals to me because we have the opportunity to shape this sport for the next 2 decades. Was it worth it to drive to Tennessee to "earn" 5th place, you bet. Did I have to take a serious stand to make sure this year was in Colorado, you bet. Will things be all peachy for this young sport, not if people don't try to work together. I know there are plenty of people on here and on the west coast that say they aren't going because of things that happened last year, that's too bad. I did drive to Tennessee, and am still willing to support the future of this sport knowing that things aren't perfect, but I'll try my best to ensure that others enjoy this sport if I can help it.

Yeah I don't disagree with any of that. Just trying to show a different perspective on it. Solo2 nats _mean_ something to _everyone_ who competes in the sport. I just don't think rallycross is there yet (and I don't think the future of the sport depends on the success of a national championship at this point). If there were more regional programs, and they were better synchronised, maybe.

That is my viewpoint only, and as I said, it's very much coloured by the fact that over here we generally roll up to CRS and FRX.

Smack talk portion:
As for the Socal boys, you aren't supposed to smack talk yourselves, that's Warrens job aka LOR LGT-FST. He and Dave or Louie, I don't remember who had started some smack talk prior to last years Nats. He'll be in Colorado borrowing a car, hopefully Socal will be able to attend and give those east coasters a chance to see who is quicker.

Bill's going, right? I'm pretty confident we'll be represented well if so.

Norcal Rules!!!

Well that's just ridiculous.

:mrgreen:

[LGT-FST]

There are 7 entries in the m4 class and none from the oc. I am traveling from Connecticut hoping to battle with the best the states have to offer. One guy is coming in from Alaska, so I would hope California's finest would want to show what they got. If not I guess the gauge will be when Ken goes to the western championship in Ca. LOR:eek:

[rollo]

There are 7 entries in the m4 class and none from the oc.

You do realise that "The OC" is just a small bit of SoCal, right?

[pomspeed]

Warren, just as bad, you're the only one so far, not from Colorado. Time will tell who can afford to go. The economy is worse right now, but gas prices are better. Ken will have a couple of Socals best to play with, so far.

[LGT-FST]

You do realise that "The OC" is just a small bit of SoCal, right?
On this coast we call it the other coast oc.

[rollo]

Oh... that's droll but confusing.

[pomspeed]

Well Bill Martin is from Socal, but he's in RP4. I'm still not sure which car I'll be running yet. Still early, but so far people from AK, 2 NE, 2 UT, 2 OR, Warren CT, and the rest from CO, come on guys, don't expect the Nationals to be this close next year. If racing for money can inspire you Subaru has their contingency program back. $1250/1st $750/2nd $500/3rd.
Not to mention VW and Team Dynamics have contingency programs.

[rollo]

Well Bill Martin is from Socal, but he's in RP4. I'm still not sure which car I'll be running yet. Still early, but so far people from AK, 2 NE, 2 UT, 2 OR, Warren CT, and the rest from CO, come on guys, don't expect the Nationals to be this close next year. If racing for money can inspire you Subaru has their contingency program back. $1250/1st $750/2nd $500/3rd.
Not to mention VW and Team Dynamics have contingency programs.

Ha, I have a Subaru and a VW, but neither would enjoy a rallycross. Oh well :D

I think you're wasting your breath.. err... fingers, anyway. There'll be no tempting the locals to go to Colorado on the same weekend there's an event in our backyard at the super-awesome Glen Helen.

[pomspeed]

And in the end, the crazy thing is that SCCA will be making all that money from the sanction/insurance fees, from both events. Also, isn't there an event in Oregon the same weekend as well? As the Borg say: Resistance Is Futile. lol

[bfrancis827]

alex, if you were in my class, I'd have no trouble telling you to drive around the wrong side of the bridge ;)

I'm still trying to get Brian Francis to driver over that land-mine :punch:

I didn't see this before, but game on buddy! If you are going to Cal City then we will settle this in a duel.

Oh, and I hope I will be able to go to this.

[Recce01]

LOL.... this stuff is fun to read. The biggest issue we faced in the past in So Cal regarding SCCA points is that no one wanted to run under SCCA rules, as they were all a bunch of confusing BS. I guess I need to read up on the latest rules and see if they have improved. All I remember, is that you could run a stock type class with Rally tires :( CRS rules were simple, fair, and did I mention simple? That purse is inviting though.... anyone want to rent me a prepared STi? I'll split the gains :)

[LGT-FST]

LOL.... this stuff is fun to read. The biggest issue we faced in the past in So Cal regarding SCCA points is that no one wanted to run under SCCA rules, as they were all a bunch of confusing BS. I guess I need to read up on the latest rules and see if they have improved. All I remember, is that you could run a stock type class with Rally tires :( CRS rules were simple, fair, and did I mention simple? That purse is inviting though.... anyone want to rent me a prepared STi? I'll split the gains :)
No rally tyres allowed in stock class. The bad is no cat needed in prep, bad for the enviorment. Ken and I will be in m4 with a prep legal car, come and join us. Scca should not be awarding santions for other events on the same weekend as the national. LOR

[Rally OBXT]

...Scca should not be awarding santions for other events on the same weekend as the national....

That's not what I hear from my SCCA rally steward.

[pomspeed]

It's good that rallycross organizers can get sanctions, but it's killing a young sport when there is conflicts for events. Now there is even a conflict for 2 events in the Pacific Northwest PRG/ORG, that's to bad because if there is a low turnout, it can make a bad example of potential event numbers.

Hopefully the San Diego West Coast Championship event will have a good turnout, maybe it will be at Prairie City next year.

As for the National Championship, even a competitor from the Pacific Northwest made mention of their conflict with Nationals, to bad because I know the Colorado folks would welcome all who want to make the trek.

So Warren, are you staying in good form?

[LGT-FST]

So Warren, are you staying in good form?
Drove this weekend, course was very rough. Won by 9 seconds. LOR

[pomspeed]

Warren, how many runs did you guys do? 1-2 seconds a run faster. Are you slowing down as you get older? j/k Did your competitors take the loss well?

[LGT-FST]

Warren, how many runs did you guys do? 1-2 seconds a run faster. Are you slowing down as you get older? j/k Did your competitors take the loss well?
7 runs, 44 seconds. Justin was ok.:eek: LOR

[pomspeed]

So does he get first place very often? We haven't had an event in a while. Fortunately I can go out to our site, Prairie City CA OHV park and practice 6 days a week, I was just out there with my Suzuki FWD for fun.

[bigjoshsubyfan]

I will be there running in stock AWD liking the subaru contingency and I hope to see you all there

[ryolse]

For those of you locals who are worried about not being good enough, keep in mind that you already race against the best drivers in the country, so you might just beat a bunch of out-of-towners. For those of you that can't afford it, here are some incentives: If you sign up by the 25th (next Friday) the entry is only $100, which includes two meals. If you race this event, we will give you free entry for the November 7th event (a $30 value). The Super 8 in Fountain is cheap, particularly if you split 4 ways. You can also camp at the site.

Sign up now at:
http://www.scca.com/eventitems.aspx?item=221&event=14127&hub=2

[enginerd]

Thanks for the update and information Mr. Sealey. It was good to see you at the last event and it sucks to not be out there racing with the P4 group this year. I hope I can still stay competitive without gravel tires. Jelous that you guys have them. Ya'll may have the edge to tromp my ass. ;-) That and I haven't raced at all this year.:unamused:

One thing I found out when researching is that you need to have an annual SCCA memebership to race...weekend memberships will not be allowed for Nationals. Adds to the cost but still worth it. Especially since the CORE event will be free to Nationals competitors. I cehcked out the Coloraod Ralllycross website and even they're hopping on the Stimulus Bandwagon! HA!

EDIT....I'm registered biatches. All go for the show!

[legacymax]

Hey guys, new to dirty impreza. You California guys should really come out here. It is going to a lot of fun. I might have to come out there for some rallycrosses next year.
-Max

[ryolse]

4 days left before the price goes up! If you are from Colorado you have no good reason to at least volunteer and get 3 free events!

[pomspeed]

legacymax: Trust me, I've been telling them that since Tennessee last year. Are you coming to San Diego with Ken and Eric? This is the event you should be coming to. The other events in California are a blast, but they are a different from the Colorado rallycross format, rules wise.

rylose: I would love to be able to get 3 events for free, but I live in California.

[legacymax]

I would like to but I am in a tight spot with very little money and a rough semester at school. Do you think they will have a national event there next year? I am swapping a newish engine into my rally car and don't have the wiring done yet so I am driving my friend's 09 WRX in RP4 at Nationals, so you will get to see my "Delecour" driving position.:) Only way I can get a feel for my corners in that car. I hope that you, Ken and Eric can convince some California guys to come out and play.
-Max
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_nPAxjuNc5JI/R6ByXkS0VrI/AAAAAAAAAw8/i1jvQnTuIFg/s400/delecour.jpg

[pomspeed]

I've been trying for over a year, no luck so far. It's why I fought so hard that Nats should be in Colorado, especially when we were told they would be after Tennssee laast year. Bill Martin is going from Socal, funny thing is he's a SF region member, like me. Long story short, we haven't had a rallycross program since 2006. Anyhoo, another friend from Norcal is going to CO, but few other takers. You know the saying "You can lead a horse to water...."

As far as a National event next year, I'm going to work to get the West Coast Championship event in Norcal next year, either Prairie City in Sacramento or San Joaquin fairgrounds horse track in Stockton 2000' x 800' nice and flat.

[WAM]

As far as a National event next year, I'm going to work to get the West Coast Championship event in Norcal next year, either Prairie City in Sacramento or San Joaquin fairgrounds horse track in Stockton 2000' x 800' nice and flat.

You better plan on somehow making it a combined CRS/FRX event too if you want to pay for it. Oregon doubles up on their national challenge doing separate results for a regional. I'll be glad to help you iron out the resulting issues if you want to go that way.

[pomspeed]

That's part of the plan, since it has been used in the past and helps with attendance and of course I'll accept all offers for help. back on topic, also, when are you heading out for Co? Is Eric gonna go?

[WAM]

It's about 1100 miles so I'll probably drive it in two days. Guess wednesday & thursday.

Eric joined the ranks of the unemployed recently but I'm trying to talk him into going and I'll help financially. It's not like he doesn't have the time.

[SoCalBoomer]

Long story short, we haven't had an SCCA rallycross program since 2006.

Sorry - had to fix that. :waving:

FRX ran 7 NorCal events last year ( 08 ) and there has been continuous events run in NorCal for quite a while. No missed years. :guitarist: Granted, this year is a bit lean (I think it's lean everywhere) but still. . .

[pomspeed]

Bill, sorry to hear that Eric is among the growing group of unemployed.

Sorry Mike, I made my comment knowing we have had rallycross, but that the SF region of SCCA doesn't have a rallycross program since this thread is about SCCA rallycross. But it did sound like there wasn't any rallycross since 06. Like you posted in the Cal City thread about having to deal with Socal SCCA regarding rallycross.

So now to get back on topic, you feeling up for a trip to Colorado? It should be better than Hasting in 06.

Come on, you know you want to go.

Brent

[SoCalBoomer]

Well, now that GH looks like it's canceled, that weekend is free.

However, three things prevent: 1. no SCCA membership anymore. 2. no money (spent my reserve on fixing the car) and 3. shoulder problem = degenerative problem plus a slew of other things means driving is painful - so I'm moving myself out of RallyX altogether.

[pomspeed]

That sucks, if your body goes, do what you can to reduce the speed of the problem. Cycling is hard on the upper body too.

[bfrancis827]

I am still a maybe for this event. I am going to try, but I am not ready to register yet. I wish the pre reg price would last a little longer.

[ryolse]

Last day to register before the price goes up to $140. Don't forget what a great deal the $100 price is. You get 3 days of fun, food and a free day for the last event of the season in November at CORE!

[Dino]

I was getting my courage up to do this event... Until I realized my buddy is getting married on the 10th.

Bros before Rallyos or something.

[pomspeed]

Dino, sorry you will not be able to make it. If the Nats can imitate how well the West Coast Championship event was run, not only will it be the closest it will be to the west coast, but a very nice experience for events of this "National" caliber.

[SoCalBoomer]

I think that something closer should be arranged. . . after all, 700 miles is a heap closer than 1250 (closest location on East Coast - Virginia Beach to Nashville - vs. closest location on West Coast - San Francisco to Denver) - heck, Salt Lake City would be MUCH better as far as distance goes. . . it's even on the correct side of the Rocky Mountains (only one mountain range to cross, not two. . .) and is about 750 miles from the coast so would be comparable to Nashville. . .

Just a thought. . .

[pomspeed]

I agree that SLC would be a good location, Karl and Jon have several sites, so if the Nats alternate between coasts, then it would be the logical choice for 2011. So, you're planning to go then? The support for the CO Nats should reflect the justification for it, but it's a hard sell with little support, certainly CO folks are going.

I'm very satisfied that this year I "only" have to Colorado for the Nats. Last year was a great adventure out to Tennessee, but I couldn't afford that 2 years in a row.

Personally, the midwest is what I'd prefer every year.

[SoCalBoomer]

To CO? No - already said that I've no dinero for it.

To SLC in the future? Doubt it - with my shoulder the way it is, doubt I'll be doing much driving at all.

[ryolse]

Here's what the weather (http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/getForecast?query=fountain,%20colorado&wuSelect=WEATHER) is looking like.

* Friday is partly cloudy with a high of 58.
* Saturday has a 20% chance of precipitation with a high of 50.
* Sunday will be Partly sunny, 10% chance of precipitation with high of 53.

[enginerd]

Yep. It's gonna be a cold one. Good for the cars, at least we won't be overheating. I actually hope it does precipitate, makes for a Dirty Day of Racing.:mrgreen: And I just got some Hankook I-Pikes that would do great in snow or wet gravel.

I'm all prepped up for competition. Got my tranny and differential fluid changed out. Swapped out my motor oil for synthetic. Cleaned my air filter and MAF Sensor. Did a full underneath bolt check, full fluids check, checked suspension and wheel bearings. Oh and I have a whole hell of a lot of stickers to put on my car tonight:lol:. Got my class and number cut in vinyl, got my SCCA RallyCross bumper stickers (required for the event), Subaru contingency stickers, DI sitckers, blah-blah-blah-yacekty-smackety.

I'm gonna be out there Friday night for the "Shot in the Dark" regional event. Can't wait to see ya'll there.

[bzzbee2]

Wish i could go. But like many, this type of travel will put to big of a dent in my wallet. Also, im supposed to be in Lancaster for the Streets of Lancaster Kart Race. I see more evos than usual at these events. Wish i could add one more. Good Luck to all the DSM's! LOL

[bfrancis827]

Just registered!!!!!!!!!

Can't talk now, lots of work to be done in not a lot of time.

[bfrancis827]

Anybody know if there is going to be camping. And just in case it does decide to rain, anyone know of any really cheap motels nearby. Normally the rain doesn't stop me, but I am bringing the Mrs.

[MarkA]

Nearest (and cheapest) motel is the Super 8 in Fountain. That's where most of the racers stayed when I was there a couple years ago.

Edited: Saturday's predicted temps are 39/28 - might want to book that hotel now...
http://www.weather.com/outlook/travel/businesstraveler/tenday/USCO0145

Damn, that forecast could ruin Bill's weekend as well with the way his Evo works in the wet.

[Rally OBXT]

Damn, that forecast could ruin Bill's weekend as well with the way his Evo works in the wet.

Nah, Bill is a tough old bastard and he is running on fresh snow tires (vs. hockey puck rally tires). I think he will do fine.

[I Like It Sideways]

Best of luck to those competing in this event! I have a 4 day weekend, and wish I had the car to make it out there with. Can't wait to hear how everything unfolds.

[pomspeed]

brian, also check orbitz for room rates.

[ryolse]

There will be a small night even on Friday as part of the National Championship. It is open to everyone. Cost is $20. We will be running 4 classes: 2WD stock lights, 4WD stock lights, 2WD modified lights, 4WD modified lights. This is not a points event, but it is open to non-National competitors. Need to register on-site before 6pm. Race will begin around 8. Planning to do four runs. This is at the Truck Driving school in Fountain.

[rollo]

Nah, Bill is a tough old bastard and he is running on fresh snow tires (vs. hockey puck rally tires). I think he will do fine.

Also you know what they say about the cold... "turbo weather". Mmm... chilly, dense air.

[bfrancis827]

Good thing I have some nice and hard rally tires:shootsself:

If I would have known that I was going to make it to this event I might have kept my worn out michlins on (Soft FTW in the cold, not doing donuts at Prairie City! lol)

[bfrancis827]

I'm headed out. See ya there!

[MarkA]

Good thing I have some nice and hard rally tires:shootsself:

If I would have known that I was going to make it to this event I might have kept my worn out michlins on (Soft FTW in the cold, not doing donuts at Prairie City! lol)

When it's that cold, I think you'll actually see most of the fast guys on snows. My "soft" rally tires were 3-4 seconds a run off snows in NE a couple years ago at around 40 degrees.

A stop for 4 throwaway snow tires may save your weekend.

[enginerd]

There will be a small night even on Friday as part of the National Championship. It is open to everyone. Cost is $20. We will be running 4 classes: 2WD stock lights, 4WD stock lights, 2WD modified lights, 4WD modified lights. This is not a points event, but it is open to non-National competitors. Need to register on-site before 6pm. Race will begin around 8. Planning to do four runs. This is at the Truck Driving school in Fountain.

HMMM. I was wondering about fees, classes, and such for the night event. Guess I need to bring an extra $20.:eek: Looks like I'll be racing in the 4wd (stock lights category) cuz I don't have a fancy light bar.

See ya'll out there tommorrow or Saturday. Really glad I decided to go witner tire for this event. It's snowing right now outside my office (i'm about 40 miles north of the Nationals Site) Where's the BRRRR I'm freezing my ass off smiley? :lol2:

[pomspeed]

Oh, good, I've wanted to do a rallycross in the snow. Maybe one of the resorts will let us borrow their snow making machines.

Also, so far the total entries equals last years number. Not bad, I just wish more west coaster could've been able to attend and show those east coaster, ok, Warren, who rocks. Not to take anything away from those from Colorado, but dang wish the Nats were less than 3-4 hours from home, lucky dogs.

Even funnier, there will be 5, Bill, Eric, Burney, Brian and myself from the SF region and we don't even have an SCCA rallycross program.

[Dino]

wish I was going =`(

[Rally OBXT]

me too.

[LGT-FST]

I'm here. See you guys this afternoon. LOR:eek:

[enginerd]

Woke up to snow on my car this morning. Glad I packed my snowboarding clothes. It's supposed to be a HIGH of 32 tommorrow!!!
I'll be rolling in around 5:30 pm tonight. My pops is going to come for some ride-a-longs. I'm going to lay a tarp down on my passenger seat just in case I scare the piss out of him. He use to scare me when we went hunting/off-roading when I was younger. Paybacks are a biatch.:muhaha:

[MarkA]

Woke up to snow on my car this morning. Glad I packed my snowboarding clothes.

Now I actually wish I went. Spending all your $$$ on moving sucks...:-(

It's going to be a long weekend for those with only rally tires.

[bfrancis827]

It's going to be a long weekend for those with only rally tires.

:pissed::shootsself:

I just made it after driving for 19 hours straight and then stopping for a few hours at a rest stop to sleep on a table in 29 degrees. Drove the last 2 hours this morning and just checked into the Super 8 and am going to sleep for a bit.

Any locals know of a place to get super cheap winter tires or have an extra set, mounted or unmounted, they wanna let me borrow/rent/buy/steal. Its freaking cold here!!

[bfrancis827]

Oh boy! Based on the entry list in P4 I think I am going to be the only one with rally tires. Bill and I are the only people from a state that doesn't need snow tires. I hope all you snow tire people de-bead.:FU::D;)

[Rally OBXT]

Brian- With temps like that, you better pony up and get some snow tires or your weekend WILL be a disaster. Best of luck!

[SoCalBoomer]

Eli picked up some cheapies at Hastings and it helped tremendously! (of course, he was using a rent-a-neon. . . LOL)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2258/1818084524_743dddaa0b.jpg

[bfrancis827]

I called a few tire shops and and 1 has some tires in stock, but I don't have an extra ~400 after spending some mulla to get here. If tomorrow is anything like today, which it isn't supposed to be, then I would be ok. I think it got up to 52 today. Tomorrow= high 38 with a chance of snow. Thats enough biotching from me though, if the tires suck, I'll just have to make it up elsewhere. I forgot gloves.:cry:

[Rally OBXT]

Time to start letting air out of your competitions tires...

[I Like It Sideways]

Good luck everyone!

[SoCalBoomer]

I forgot gloves.:cry:

DOH :shock:

[rollo]

Numb hands are no good for drivin', go and buy some. And if Mrs Brian forgot them as well, doubly (no, quadruply) so :D

[bfrancis827]

WOW! WOW! WOW! What a cold freaking day! Weather.com says its 22 but feels like 13. It was a fun day though. If I had gloves it would have been even better:crazy: The way the day was set up was cool; 2 courses, 4WD on one course in the morning while the 2wd on the other and then after lunch we did the old switcharoo. So, Everyone was either racing or working all day. I sure hope the forecast for tomorrow is correct(53).

Time to start letting air out of your competitions tires...
More like let the air out of my tires. For the morning course I had very little traction, so I tried to get a little more by having a little less (air that is).

DOH :shock:

Yup! Dummy here <------

Numb hands are no good for drivin', go and buy some. And if Mrs Brian forgot them as well, doubly (no, quadruply) so :D

She is the smart one. While I was worrying about not forgetting to pack a tire or a jack, she was worrying about snivel gear.

[subydude]

Any updates on who's winning?

[LGT-FST]

Chris O'Driscoll m4 ken 2nd warren 3rd. pa Max Johnson 1 . Sa Scott Johnson.

[I Like It Sideways]

Way to go guys! Congrats!

And Scott Johnson...as in yellow Evo, OVR regular scott johnson? If so, that's awesome!!!

[flat4motorsports]

chris kicks but as usual. how do we get rid of this guy?? lol congrats chris you ruled !! max is fast and consistent as usual.

[flat4motorsports]

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e355/420SUBYLOVER/IMG_5135.jpg

I called a few tire shops and and 1 has some tires in stock, but I don't have an extra ~400 after spending some mulla to get here. If tomorrow is anything like today, which it isn't supposed to be, then I would be ok. I think it got up to 52 today. Tomorrow= high 38 with a chance of snow. Thats enough biotching from me though, if the tires suck, I'll just have to make it up elsewhere. I forgot gloves.:cry:
next time get ahold of us we would have lent you a set of winter tires and gloves for the day . we bring extra everything

[subydude]

Chris O'Driscoll m4 ken 2nd warren 3rd. pa Max Johnson 1 . Sa Scott Johnson.

Kick Ass!!!:eek::headbang:

[paktinat]

Congrats to everyone (but especially Scott!)

[legacymax]

Thanks for coming out to Colorado and braving the weather guys! Nationals went very smoothly. I will have to try to come out there when you guys have your next National event. Winter tires were not needed at this event as the surface wasn't wet, just the top 5mms were frozen and were pretty much brushed off by the parade lap and first car. The temperature wasn't optimal for the rally tires but they still seemed to grip well. I was on michelin 70s which stood up well to the double driver weekend on fountain's abrasive surface.
-Max

[enginerd]

Yeah what an awseome and grueling weekend. I thought I would have an advantage with my new Winter tires, but there wasn't much snow/ice after a few cars went through and I destroyed my front tires on the rough surface.

It was cool to meet the out of town DI members from around the country with most of them coming from Utah and California. Everyone ran well and seriuosly represented. I managed a 5th place finish behind some seasoned racers with higher horspower, rally gravel tires, and better suspension. I did well on the Saturday AM short course with a 2nd place standing after that session. The longer courses on Saturday afternoon and Sunday showed the limits of my car and my driving abilities and I slipped down the leader board.

Holy crap I love my Impreza. I beat the crap out of it, drove to and from the event on a sheet of ice, and got there with plenty of gear and room to spare. And I passed 140k miles at the event!:headbang:

A few pics from the event below. Anyone know how to get a hold of the 'official' pictures by the SCCA hired photographer?

http://www.dirtyimpreza.com/forums/vbpgimage.php?do=full&p=1991&d=1255454538

http://www.dirtyimpreza.com/forums/vbpgimage.php?do=full&p=1992&d=1255454545

http://www.dirtyimpreza.com/forums/vbpgimage.php?do=full&p=1993&d=1255454558

[ryolse]

Rupert Berrington (rupertberr@me.com (http://www.dirtyimpreza.com/forums/rupertberr@me.com)) are up!!! :eek:
http://www.printroom.com/GHome_main.asp?domain_name=action&group_id=46

[bfrancis827]

Wow! That's a lot of pictures!

They look amazing!

[MarkA]

Full results: http://www.scca.com/documents/Rally%20Points/RlxNats2009FinalResults.pdf

[Rally OBXT]

Wow, the battle for 2nd in PA was CLOSE.

[bfrancis827]

Yeah, it was close. 1st place for M4 was even closer though.

"If only I would have missed one of the cones!":lol2:

I wish I could say that, but cones are part of the game dang it!:machinegunleft:

M_-WRcUeHaY

[LGT-FST]

Full results: http://www.scca.com/documents/Rally%20Points/RlxNats2009FinalResults.pdf
Those are not full results, there are not run times listed. We need to get those. LOR

[WAM]

Those are not full results, there are not run times listed. We need to get those. LOR

Yeah, I e-mailed Ken this morning asking about full results. We'll see what he says.

Edit: Okay I have a copy, Excel, 300+ KB. Is there a place to post them on DI or what should I do with them? I suppose one easy thing is just to forward the email to those interested -- if not too many.

[Dino]

Yeah, I e-mailed Ken this morning asking about full results. We'll see what he says.

Edit: Okay I have a copy, Excel, 300+ KB. Is there a place to post them on DI or what should I do with them? I suppose one easy thing is just to forward the email to those interested -- if not too many.

I don't mind hosting them.

Feel free to toss them over to dinoguan at gmail dot com and I'll post them asap.

[WAM]

I don't mind hosting them.

Feel free to toss them over to dinoguan at gmail dot com and I'll post them asap.

You got it.

[pomspeed]

Bill, were there intentions to put them at sccabb.com in the rallycross results section, like usual?
This was the best nationals so far, but it did have a serious "regional" feel to it. Did
anyone esle think this way or just me? It wasn't bad, just not what the Nationals are supposed to represent.

[WAM]

Bill, were there intentions to put them at sccabb.com in the rallycross results section, like usual?
This was the best nationals so far, but it did have a serious "regional" feel to it. Did
anyone esle think this way or just me? It wasn't bad, just not what the Nationals are supposed to represent.

My guess is only the summary version is intended for publication. The master results are a huge document not suitable for normal posting. You'll see what I mean when Dino gets it on line.

I would think every region will stamp their own personality on their events. Part of the regional feel is that 90% of the entry were locals. But that's not their fault. Personally I think the site is too small for a proper national. The north course is 25% the area of our typical California course. The south course was even smaller and terrible grip. Result of the small size was I never got out of 1st gear (although I did hit the limiter occasionally). I measured a couple spots on the course at 8 ft wide. Actually it was 8 of my shoe lengths so maybe slightly wider. So this event didn't well represent our version of the sport.

Still, one feature of driving elsewhere for events is to see how other people do things. And I consider all events fun. Just some are funner than others.

[pomspeed]

Yeah, I posted at sccabb that the results don't need every detail, just posted like we're used to, class name number each run time and penalty totals. that's it.

I'd say that the site size was fine. That's what helped make them technical and not just easy courses, something that tends to happen with too much room. That's why I think it's unfortunate you won't be able to make it to PC, lots of room, we already have done 3:00 runs, yet elevation changes requires no crazy high speed stuff.

That was a bonus for Nationals was the courses were plenty technical, which to me means fun, thank you for the good courses.

Yeah narrow for sure. That finish on Sunday was tight, wow. Easy does it.
I try to evaluate the event without the bias of my own mistakes of my tires. Saturday morning hurt me big time, really loose surface, but we all raced on the same surface.

[WAM]

What was wrong with your tires? I thought they looked pretty racey for stock class.

[Dino]

Detailed Nationals Results (http://www.dinodevelopment.com/Nationals/Master%20Nationals%20Timing.xls)

[pomspeed]

almost no tread, that's where they were ok for Saturday afternoon and Sunday, better than Saturday morning on the south course(too loose).

[WAM]

Detailed Nationals Results (http://www.dinodevelopment.com/Nationals/Master%20Nationals%20Timing.xls)

To save you some time figuring it out if using Excel:
1. click the Master Timing tab at lower left
2. move bottom horiz scroll to full left
3. move right side vertical scroll to full up

That should get you to run 1. Actually Dino, maybe you can save it that way.

[legacymax]

In what way did it feel like a regional event and how could we have made it not feel like so? Did hastings feel like a national?(only other national I have to compare it to) I am just trying to see how we could have made it better.
Thanks,
-Max

[WAM]

In what way did it feel like a regional event and how could we have made it not feel like so? Did hastings feel like a national?(only other national I have to compare it to) I am just trying to see how we could have made it better.
Thanks,
-Max

Not sure what pomspeed had in mind, but I think the event came off pretty well. The south course is a PITA and I would have done the canyon of cones and ultra-tight finish differently. And that U-turn between the courses was tighter than my turning radius. But that's just an issue with the course design, not the event overall. Other than that I don't really see how you could have made it any better. Good job.

Well, you could have put warming huts on course for the workers. ;)

[pomspeed]

First , congratulations for winning PA Max.
Like I stated before, thanks for the great technical courses, they were more technical than the TN courses the year before. Tim Hardy did them, correct? The regional feel comes from the fact that the courses were done by a local competitor. Nationals normally has courses designed by competitors from around the country.
Also, like I stated before, this has been the best Nationalsso far. Unfortunately I have this ability to nitpick small details, sorry.
Combining the best parts from every past Nationals for the future events is my vision, I know, kinda crazy, but I still have my dream of such an event.
For example, the start order and inverts with leaders starting the second day is the best solution to date.
And yes Bill, the event came off pretty well, actually, I’d say really well, thank you CO folks, but like solo2 Nats there is a difference, solo has had a lot more time to get to where it is, I’m just trying to get rallycross to that point in every way I can help as quickly as possible. Biggest reason, imagine 200+ entries. Which still pales in comparison to Solo2. When the economy gets better, I hope more people get to Nationals.
The other final point is we are not seeing the Nationals results at sccabb.com like they should be posted, rather we are dealing with the "locals" for them, just saying.

[WAM]

That's an interesting question about how to handle future larger turnouts, should that occur. Obviously the first reaction to higher turnouts is to reduce the number of runs. This event was able to give 15 runs to sixty-some people without running late. If you had 100 people, you might only be able to offer 10. If you had 200 people you'd have to change the format. Probably a larger site with room for two full-size courses such as done at Solo Nat's. I would hope we'd never drop below four runs per course.

Ultimately, Solo handles 1000+ entries by expanding the event to four days. I doubt we'll have to get to that point anytime soon.

A bigger concern would be failure to grow the sport nationally. Unlike the Solo Nat's, relatively few out of area people supported this event. It looks to me like RX nationals is following the model of a Super Regional. Maybe that will change...maybe not.

[Ken Cashion]

First off, thanks to all of you that came. I enjoy getting to know all of you and it makes my experience worthwhile.

As far as how this event differed from a "national" event, here are a few:

More cars, no roll-overs, no course changes, no protests, plenty of runs, plenty of food, staying on schedule, gravel...

Granted the individual courses were on the small side, but I don't necessarily think bigger is better. If you read through the basic description of our sport, there is no minumum speed or gear that we need to achieve. FWIW, Tim Hardy does like to include tight stuff in his designs. Not really my favorite, and I advised him to keep the tricky stuff to a minimum, but nothing wrong with some tight spots either. As an example, the finish chute on Sunday was a great way to limit speed into the finish. Everyone had to deal with it.

As far as the surface, I love it because it holds up. Dirt may be more fun for a few runs, but you'll never run 100-200 cars on soil without a lot of headaches. Don't rally cars typically run on "gravel" tires?

I was very happy with how the event turned out, in spite of the cold and a few tenths of a second. I believe we showed what could be done, and I hope next year is even better.

[WAM]

Granted the individual courses were on the small side, but I don't necessarily think bigger is better. If you read through the basic description of our sport, there is no minumum speed or gear that we need to achieve.

Hi Ken, thanks again for a great event. All the components you said came off well, truly did. I don't think anyone's mentioned the daily catered food service -- outstanding.

But we've been discussing in what ways this might not have been a representative national event vs a regional-style event. Your point that there is no minimum speed range in the sport is correct. But that's a far piece from saying that 1st gear, 10ft wide courses are typical of the sport. And I would think that a "typical" course is most appropriate for a national event. You drove San Diego a couple weeks prior. In the last two years, I've driven 25 events in four states. (Okay, I've counted 2-day events as two events.) The San Diego event was a typical course from my experience. I've driven a few that were slower and a handful that were faster. But never anything as slow, loose and narrow as this years south course. Granted that's not necessarily bad. Brent is on record calling it 'technical' and he loved it. I was driving an oversized sled and didn't. But the point is it wasn't representative of the sport as we practice it on the west coast. Dunno about the east coast types, maybe they're used to 1st gear courses. But from the videos I've watched, their events prettymuch look like ours. Anyways, one of your guys asked 'in what ways did we consider this event regionally-flavored?' And this is all I could come up with.

Now while I enjoyed the event, I was disappointed that you guys would throw in a U-turn tighter than some peoples (okay, my) minimum turning radius. It took me from contention for 2nd (boo, Max ;-)) to mid-pack, and it seemed there was nothing I could do about it. Actually, if I brushed the cones going in, I could brush the cones coming out. I will however accept responsibility for not possessing a pin-turn technique. I've never needed it before, but I'll have it next time.

[pomspeed]

Great to have you here Ken.

Bill, I have yet to do one of Mike's courses, but I believe they fall under the painfully tight courses from his own descriptions and other peoples comments. I know the courses at PC have had their sections of tight corners as well, but that has more to do with elevation changes. Some of Pete's courses had the pin turns as well, those I'm not in favor of myself, but they can be fun, jk.

[WAM]

Great to have you here Ken.

Bill, I have yet to do one of Mike's courses, but I believe they fall under the painfully tight courses from his own descriptions and other peoples comments. I know the courses at PC have had their sections of tight corners as well, but that has more to do with elevation changes. Some of Pete's courses had the pin turns as well, those I'm not in favor of myself, but they can be fun, jk.

Not in my experience Brent. Mike, and Dave/Louie too, often put some very tight turns into a highly varied course. I personally put a couple single-cone pin turns into my JV-1 course this year. Jon had a tight keyhole turn at the edge of the Vallejo course. But the outside cones have never impinged on the car to where min turning circle is an issue. You can pin-turn it if you wish, or drive around. Always.

[rollo]

I've done a lot of Mike's and a couple of Pete's courses, and while they both typically incorporate tight sections, I don't recall any of them being so tight I couldn't make it through - and my car has a terrible turning radius, open front diff and the handbrake doesn't hold tightly enough to drag its ass round.

I really liked the open pin turn at Cal City - the fastest way around was probably the same as it would have been if it had been pinched/restricted, but being open on the outside meant that if you did get it wrong, you hadn't thrown the whole day away.

Honestly, speaking as perhaps an average rallycross guy, the reason the sport appeals is because I can come in hot, throw the car sideways into a turn and if I get it right, it was faster than just driving the race line. And if the next corner is relatively close and goes in the other direction, I'll use the snap back in the opposite direction to take me round that one. That's my ideal rallycross course, one that flows and rewards commitment.

2c

[Ken Cashion]

This issue of regionalism is actually very relevant to the growth of the sport. I don't have any perfect solutions, but I would like to share some observations and opinions.

Over the past 9 years, I've competed in 11 states at well over 100 events. I was also the first trained RallyCross Safety Steward. This year's East and West coast events were the first two where I incurred appreciable damage to my car as a result of rough course conditions. From my perspective, car breaking courses are not cool.

At the third Hastings event, I recall that Paul Eklund designed one of the courses. It was full of tight, gimmicky sections which just didn't work with the surface. Might have been great on asphalt, but not bean fields. What works and holds up on our Fountain site may not work for other surfaces either. (Though I repeat, I'm not a fan of tight stuff.)

For regional events at USTDS, we are comfortable approaching the bermed connecting roads much faster, but with out of town safety stewards we had to compromise much more.

Some of the most interesting racing I've done was back in the Sealander dynasty in Utah. They had a small site with gravel much deeper than our USTDS south lot. Their courses were complex, brisk and cerebral. On the down side, it took them all day to run 12 cars.

I prefer to run 60-90 second courses. For the championship, I was planning an event that would accomodate 120 cars. In retrospect, we could have run big courses for all three heats and still finished on time.

The other big plus we had at our event was decisiveness (which was also present at the West Coast event - kudos to Bret).

Blah, blah, blah... Is it racing time yet?

[LGT-FST]

Ok everything can't be perfect but I did recieve my trophy in front of my pears and not in the mail like last year because of all the peeing. I am not a fan of 1st gear courses and turns that you must stop turn wheel to lock and idle threw to next outside cone and step on gas. I was also driving an Evo that has the turning radius of a semi but I was the fastest car in class on sunday even with things i do not like. Event was run flawlessly but with 69 entries only 8 can go home champions. As usual meeting my internet counter parts in person is great. Bill if you had stayed on track and Ken was 3 and a half tens quicker we would have three evo's taking the allwheel wins. And as far as soil goes we ran in Maine this past weekend and once we got threw the sod it was rut city. I kept hitting these orange things like eleven of them, still won though. LOR

[bfrancis827]

No one could even see Max's taillights! He had RPA locked in after the first course! I wish I wasn't in the same class as him, so I could have watched him. Good job Max.

I was sooooooo pissed on my last run on sunday because I thought I hit the inside cone on the turn that connected the 2 courses, (just before the straight away) that I totally lost all my concentration and blew every turn after that (except the finish thankfully;))

Oh well, what if.....

[WAM]

Bill if you had stayed on track and Ken was 3 and a half tens quicker we would have three evo's taking the allwheel wins. Actually it would have taken my staying on track and removing one of Max's valve cores for his last run. Maybe two valve cores.

Was good meeting you too Warren.

[Ken Cashion]

Just to tease you RPA folks, the Evo that Warren and I drove in M4 is completely RPA legal and wasn't using rally tires... Since the groups were running the same courses, I think it's fair to compare times ;-)

[legacymax]

Just to tease you RPA folks, the Evo that Warren and I drove in M4 is completely RPA legal and wasn't using rally tires... Since the groups were running the same courses, I think it's fair to compare times ;-)
Just to tease you M4 guys(ken mostly), 09 WRX, SA legal besides the rally tires. When we raced directly against each other on the second day, who had the lowest overall time?;) And who was right on your times, Brian Francis and Ryan Gates.;)
Thanks guys, there is some home field advantage, so I am going to have to make it out there in '10. Don't know what I will be racing. The rally car might be a little uncomfortable to drive all the way out there. Maybe I can borrow the WRX again(thanks shawn!).
-Max

[Ken Cashion]

Ouch! No doubt you guys did very well on Sunday. I certainly wasn't posting impressive times. I think I was so surprised to be doing well with all the crap I had to keep track of that I got really conservative on Sunday. I didn't even realize I had the lead going into the last run.:shootsself:

I'm used to your awesome driving, but it was Ryan Gates that impressed me the most. He and Mike Bond have stepped up big this season.:headbang:

[legacymax]

I'm used to your awesome driving, but it was Ryan Gates that impressed me the most. He and Mike Bond have stepped up big this season.:headbang:
Certainly, Ryan is running some great times, and I think M Bond will really be fast once he reels it in a little.
I wish I could buy your EVO from you, a little much for being on student loans right now though. What car are you racing in at the next event? You going to figure out the SI or finish the season off with the EVO?
I do think we need to have another school over the winter. We have a lot of new guys and girls out there that could really improve with some basic direction.

-Max

[LGT-FST]

Just to tease you M4 guys(ken mostly), 09 WRX, SA legal besides the rally tires. When we raced directly against each other on the second day, who had the lowest overall time?;) And who was right on your times, Brian Francis and Ryan Gates.;)
Thanks guys, there is some home field advantage, so I am going to have to make it out there in '10. Don't know what I will be racing. The rally car might be a little uncomfortable to drive all the way out there. Maybe I can borrow the WRX again(thanks shawn!).
-Max
Fastest out there except for one cone, and didn't know the surface. :eek: LOR

[WAM]

Hey, a question. There have been a couple of comments about doing this again next year. Are the Nationals coming back to Fountain next year? I assumed it would bounce to some other part of the country, which has been the pattern up to now.

[Ken Cashion]

It will most likely not be in Colorado again next year. It's possible that we could host in 2011. Will probably be east of the Mississippi for 2010.

Even though we ended up with more drivers than last year (like one more), the slow response to register was a disappointment. The west coast has to realize it won't get any closer. If we can't get more non-Colorado drivers to attend a Championship held in Colorado, it will seem that the East coast is truly the hub of the sport, and that there is no point in holding a finale this far west.

[rollo]

It will most likely not be in Colorado again next year. It's possible that we could host in 2011. Will probably be east of the Mississippi for 2010.

Even though we ended up with more drivers than last year (like one more), the slow response to register was a disappointment. The west coast has to realize it won't get any closer. If we can't get more non-Colorado drivers to attend a Championship held in Colorado, it will seem that the East coast is truly the hub of the sport, and that there is no point in holding a finale this far west.

If you would, define "the sport" in this context?

[Rally OBXT]

The west coast has to realize it won't get any closer. If we can't get more non-Colorado drivers to attend a Championship held in Colorado, it will seem that the East coast is truly the hub of the sport....

Cry me a river. A lot of racing series and events have been hurt by the economy. I think that is the primary reason west coast people did not make the trip. Also, to say that the east coast is the hub of the sport is a joke. There is plenty going on over here on the west, we just don't play the SCCA game as much as the east coast.

BTW, we had a "National" event last year too, it was just the NASA National not the SCCA one. We realize that east cost people (and most others outside Cali) are not going to make it all the way out here, so we don't place too much emphasis on the whole National thing. Besides, the whole National thing is sorta silly in the first place. You are not a champion if you can win one race.

Now if the National was an invite only race, where lets say the top three people from each reagion (based on finishing point from previous races that year) showed up and had some sort of run off, then OK, now we are talking. But showing up to one race and winning to call yourself champion is weak sauce.

[rollo]

It'd be interesting to have a "championship duel" like in the 60s between F1 and Indy cars...

[SoCalBoomer]

Ken,

That is exactly the type of talk that alienates an entire region (and by region I'm not talking CalClub or SFR specifically but rather a geographic region)

You know that California has been running an extremely successful rallycross program for as long as anyone else with continuous series dating back at least to 1999 (all the records I can easily - stress easily - obtain) Granted, they're not SCCA, but there is life outside of SCCA. :D (and SCCA records going back in time are also difficult to find, publicly, maybe they're gathering dust somewhere. . .?)


Now, If we could examine the origination of everyone coming to last year's in Tennessee, that would be awesome. Unfortunately the results don't show that. Indeed, I can't seem to find the results from any of the Hastings events either. This makes it a bit difficult to be objective about this discussion.

So, Ken, here are some questions to move this conversation along in a constructive fashion:

1. Can you objectively tell us what mean driving distance was for both 08 and 09? Now compare this to the typical driving distance for proximate regions.

2. Can you objectively tell me the density of regions and population centers and a correlation to turnout? I ask this because this statistic will easily show that Denver is (pardon me guys, nothing personal) in the middle of nowhere - it's a wonderful city (been there, LOVED it!) but it's an isolated population center. If you take a look at http://www.census.gov/popest/gallery/maps/County-Density-08.html , you'll notice that TN is quite close to a LOT of high density areas while CO is, well, not. Correlate this to turnout please.

3. Let's also compare all three previous elements. This correlation should actually give a better picture of real distance and turnout factors.

4. Can someone give us an overall analysis of how the economy has affected attendance at rallycrosses? I've seen FAR more cancellations this year than ever before. I know for a fact that distance driving has hurt our events (they're all about 2 hrs drive or more) and we're at an all time low. . .

so now I've presented several factors: 1. how many actually DID drive (and we can't see that with publicly available records); 2. how much that can be correlated to the fact of population and regional densities (plop a Nat'l in the middle of a pop and regional density vs. not. . .); 3. Mileage difference FROM said population densities (taking closest mileage); and 4. economical factors and driving distance.


So before you insult an entire group of drivers and organizers, let's start thinking a bit objectively, shall we?

[pomspeed]

Mike, don't include SFR in your "alienation" comments. Our problems are with our region not with Ken. Ken, Mike doesn't speak for all of "us".

Mike the results can be found at sccabb.com under rallycross results heading, except for the 09 Nats, which I am still waiting for them to appear there like they should.


The Norcal rallycross program from 02-06 was SCCA.

Can't we all just get along.

[Ken Cashion]

SoCalBoomer,

Are you for real? Do you have any manners or common sense? Have you ever raced outside of your state?

My comments expressed disappointment with the poor representation of western drivers at the recent NCRX - you have read far too much into my comments and you don't know me well enough to go off the way you have, let alone flip me the bird.

If you don't have the guts to sign your own name, don't call me out by mine.

The only way this sport will grow and thrive is by integration and compromise. The Colorado program made some very reluctant compromises in 2005 with the new rules, but we did it in the interest of the sport as a whole.

I raced the East, West and National events over the span of 4 weeks, so I have a pretty good idea of the distances between them, but thanks for all the data.

Are you even aware of my series proposal?

I'd be happy to talk about ways to make things bigger and better. Here's my phone number:

303-691-5995

-Ken Cashion

[legacymax]

Mike, don't include SFR in your "alienation" comments. Our problems are with our region not with Ken. Ken, Mike doesn't speak for all of "us".

Mike the results can be found at sccabb.com under rallycross results heading, except for the 09 Nats, which I am still waiting for them to appear there like they should.


The Norcal rallycross program from 02-06 was SCCA.

Can't we all just get along.
I agree

If you are going to have a Nat Championship, it has to be somewhat close to the population center of the whole country(missouri) in a budget sport like this to make it anywhere close to good representation of the nation.
Colorado was made to be closer to the west coasters and the surface holds up great. Saved you a day compared to hastings, 1 1/2 days to Tenn. Utah is a good idea (Utah is to west coast as tenn is to east coast geographically), but they haven't shown that they could host a National Championship and their attendance numbers have been dropping. Maybe they should host a national event next year and we all can test it out. If you throw it on the other side of the mountains into Utah, that means one more mountain range(don't see why driving through mountains is so bad as some people state) to drive across for the east coasters to drive across if you look at it that way.
Also, don't say that one race doesn't make you a national champion, because in a sport like this, it does. The majority of the nation runs under SCCA rallycross, so if you want to compare yourself to the rest of the nation, you race at the SCCA Nationals. It is the best method(cheapest) at declaring national champions. There is a practice day to help you get used to the surface and course design specific to whatever region is hosting the championship. If you keep it clean and consistent, you are in the running. The tires that work for your region are the same as ours. With 12+ runs, winning nationals is not a fluke. Most of the competitors who podium at Nationals podium in the other regions they travel too.

Why don't you guys play SCCA anyways? What is the story behind that?
-Max

[Ken Cashion]

You are not a champion if you can win one race.

Now if the National was an invite only race, where lets say the top three people from each reagion (based on finishing point from previous races that year) showed up and had some sort of run off, then OK, now we are talking. But showing up to one race and winning to call yourself champion is weak sauce.

Negativity aside, I agree with your sentiment. Have you seen this:

http://www.sccabb.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=8173&PN=1

[legacymax]

Negativity aside, I agree with your sentiment. Have you seen this:

http://www.sccabb.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=8173&PN=1

I think it is a good idea in-a-way, but it greatly increases the cost of the sport to achieve the title of national champion which it seems is what is hampering the West coast folks. It is much cheaper to run one race, if you have a bad day, you have another to make up for it. If that is not enough, you have next year try again.
-Max

[WAM]

Personally, I think if the majority of the top drivers are unwilling to drive between 1000 to 2000 miles, then we won't really have national championships in the conventional sense. A west coast event will be dominated by west coast drivers, same with east coast, same with Colorado.

Perhaps we should just have three regional-national championship events, west, central & east and be happy. The way it is now, having the event on one side of the continent just means the other guys are precluded from a national championship event until next year. Yes, there are exceptions...but they're exceptions.

And yes, I know we have Eastern States Championships and Western States Championships now. But they haven't the same prestige if they're subordinated to a "National" (that isn't really, for the reasons mentioned above.)

[Rally OBXT]

Negativity aside, I agree with your sentiment. Have you seen this:

http://www.sccabb.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=8173&PN=1

I checked it out and I like it for the most part. I don't see why people like the idea of a one race / winner take all approach. The people over on the SCCA board though seem to be in love with that idea.

[Ken Cashion]

I don't see why people like the idea of a one race / winner take all approach. The people over on the SCCA board though seem to be in love with that idea.

I don't either. Our events have cumulative scoring, why shouldn't our championship? I really think it boils down to misguided thoughts about economy - that it needs to be affordable to everyone. I think a first step is acknowledging the difference between regional and national events. There are some folks that want to travel and compete with their elite peers, and there are some that can barely afford the gas to regional events. I don't think a national championship strategy should cater to the latter.

Every time a competitor travels to a new region to race, our sport gets stronger. We need to encourage as much cross pollination as possible.

[pomspeed]

Until we have the participation numbers like solo2, we just don't have enough of a base to support a series where people will travel large distances for a series, like WAM(Bill) said. Look at the San Diego event, for example, a huge Socal rallycross base with most of the entries local solo2 folks, a few socal rallycrossers and the rest made up of folks who traveled 500+ miles to attend, thank you Colorado guys. Even JonO said he had to choose between CO and SD and he chose CO.

I'm all for any kind of racing series I can participate in, can everyone in our sport? I believe this will happen one day. The question is, how long will it take? I've only done rallycross on and off since '03 and the sport still hasn't seen any real growth.

Until more people start to attend the "big" events, like solo2, I just think it's hard to justify the money that will be lost trying to support a series, unless it starts as regional/divisional like solo2.

[legacymax]

I think the Championship should be affordable to most of the sport's regulars. Just because someone can afford to drive everywhere to compete doesn't make them elite drivers and it shouldn't make them national champion. I think it makes more sense to just have to do that once a year. That is what I like about this motorsport, that it doesn't always come down to money. You don't really have to have a lot of money or a lot of car(though it helps) to be competitive. The idea of having a "bad day" at national competition comes down to driver's skill. Mechanical failure is part of the sport, but if you drive right and setup/take care of your car right, it shouldn't break.
I could probably make it to one or two of the national events given that I have a friend who I could go and drive with to split costs. But a lot of the regulars aren't that lucky.
-Max

[SoCalBoomer]

I had a long post composed (me? Long post? Naaah) but got rid of it. So now I have another - that is kinda three posts in one.

Sorry. :flamed:shootsself:

Listen, all I wanted to do was to ask three objective questions to try to get past Ken's opinion. He stated something and I wanted to get to the root of it.

I even tried to make it colorful and all that. I notice that all attention got taken by the second post, so I deleted that as it seemed to be too distracting. Can we try again?

Before saying that West Coast turnout was bad for a Colorado event, can you answer the three questions?

---------------
Regarding your National Points Series -

What I take from your PDF is that the more events you go to, the better the "pool" of points you can take. If you are smart, you'd go to regional events (wherever you live, however far you need to drive) where you're guaranteed a good result. Also, if you're smart, you'd go to as many Divisionals as possible, then take the highest result you get. Plus you'd definitely go to National because that one National score will be better than pretty much all of your Regional scores put together.



People who can drive to more "valuable" events get more points per event. This rewards those who can afford it - timewise as well as monetarily.
People who live in or near regions which can support many events have a better chance of earning higher points. This rewards people who live in higher density areas with lots of regions - basically the East Coast. It also rewards those who can afford to drive outside of region to cherry-pick events.
The distance, based on an arbitrary 1000 miles from Hastings Nebraska means a possible 2500 mile drive for Boston-ites or San Diego-ites, a 2600 mile drive for Seattle-ites, and a nearly 3000 mile drive from South Florida. This means that there is a: little meaning to a National (other than 50 points) and b: only locals and those who can afford to drive for those 50 points will go - makes the National less meaningful (it's just 50 points) so again, we end up with only locals and a few who can afford a possible 2500-3000 mile drive and we're back where we started.


This proposal again confuses "National" with "National" - which is the championship? The National? or the National Series?

There is inherent controversy built into this proposal - the Tie-Breaker is going to be used and abused and rewards larger regions, when it comes right down to it: If a tie exists between drivers who have done onlyregional events, the number of entrants in each event class will be used to determine the winner. so, if you're in an area that is struggling, you're toast.

This system begs for cherry picking and rewards those who can afford the time and costs to drive long distances and run in as many events as possible - which would be fine if that actually equated to SKILL and MERIT, which it doesn't.

--------

Honestly, why not just go back to holding the National Championship in the center of the country (like Eastern Nebraska, Kansas, Missouri, etc.) - set up with a landowner like George Anderson (MPH - AWESOME dude!) and work on establishing its status as a premier event?

Make it well organized (not that Neb didn't do a great job. . .absolutely not saying that)
Keep the level of awesome involvement of the community (Hastings was awesome, honestly)
work to keep any appearance of impropriety AWAY
And just make it AN EVENT. . .caps intended. :D

We don't need complicated crapola . . . Rallycross needs integrity, intensity, and image . . . instead of trying to build a complex system, why not just FIX and REFINE?

[Ken Cashion]

There are obviously different ways to crown a champion, but growth and revenue need to be part of the equation. The goal is more events in more places with more participants.

The affordability question is a paradox in motorsports. We play a game where the "ball" costs thousands of dollars. We do it by choice. Unless we are proposing a spec series or a maximum value on the vehicles, it's futile to discuss affordability. If you want it to be more affordable, do it less. We all have individual thresholds, but we shouldn't want to cap the growth of the sport based on our personal level of commitment.

We have been blessed with 30% growth in our program for each of the last three years. One of the big factors, as we all here can attest, is the internet. Thinking we will follow the same growth cycle as Solo is not realistic. Word spreads much faster now, and expectations are higher based on the example of Solo and many other grassroots motorsports.

I realize that there probably aren't any regions that could easily handle 100 cars at a rallycross, let alone do it regularly. That's not to say we shouldn't hope for it. I still believe that the more we get to know each other on the track, rather than on the screen, the more our sport will flourish. If we're going to discuss these issues so passionately, it only makes sense that we would want some common ground.

[SoCalBoomer]

Hi Ken,

Is that your (CO) program - the 30% - that's awesome. We're in the midst of a huge trough. . .huge. Which is why the three questions. . .btw, they're not accusations - they're questions I think must be answered before one can actually say Even though we ended up with more drivers than last year (like one more), the slow response to register was a disappointment. The west coast has to realize it won't get any closer. If we can't get more non-Colorado drivers to attend a Championship held in Colorado, it will seem that the East coast is truly the hub of the sport, and that there is no point in holding a finale this far west. - btw, you had the same number (69) as Tennessee had (69), at least on the results page both list 69. Heck, it's just a good number - 69.

The question of affordability is something that, at the championship level, needs to be balanced with how much one can "buy" the championship. Money vs. Merit - and I don't think it's futile to discuss that.

Unfortunately, I honestly believe your proposal favors Money over Merit; Spending over Skill; can I come up with other alliterative (consonant) things? :shocked:

At this point (as it was 5 years ago when a similar proposal was put forth) the dilemma is still the same. We NEED participation and we can't get that unless we keep it affordable.

[Ken Cashion]

[QUOTE=SoCalBoomer;165948]can you answer the three questions?

---------------
SoCalBoomer,

Thanks for the apology. Still wish I knew you by name.

The questions you raised are common concerns with this type of system. Allow me to attempt to explain my reasoning.

1. It is true that this system should reward those who attend more events. I think that is a desirable result. We want more people doing more events in more places.

2. The goal is to limit the amount of points events for each region. This is intended to encourage creating programs and events in adjacent regions. What looks like a way to get "easy" points next door is actually a way to spread the sport to new regions. Since my region has lots of events, it makes sense that only one of them counts for national points. If I want more close to home, I need to encourage UT or NM or WY to get active. I may need to help them do it. See where I'm going?

3. The finale needs to be somewhat central. I think the closer to Omaha the better, but the 1000 mile circle is an arbitrary guidline to accomodate major metro areas that are still somewhat central. (Anyplace but MPH, please)

I like that you are thinking about it intently and looking at the ways to beat the system. I'm hoping that it will affect others the same way. The one big catch with your assertion of guaranteed results is that there are no guarantees. This is racing, and there will be others thinking just like you. Ever counted your contingency money before you've actually won it? (I have.) Ever banked on getting something cheap on eBay because no one else was going to bid on it? (I have.) Most of the critics of this proposal make the same assumptions.

The finale event needs a good name, so as to not be confused with the NC.

Finally, I have a far-fetched lead on an ideal location that has nationwide implications. There is a heavy equipment auction company called Richie Brothers. They have locations near just about every major metro area. Each of their facilities is 20-120 acres of pristine roadbed gravel. They use each facility 3 or 4 times per year, and they are practiaclly empty the rest of the time. I tried with the one by us once to no avail. If someone could make inroads, it might open up an opportunity for all the other sites. Look them up online.

Hope my answers made sense,

-Ken

[RallyTaco]

Honestly, speaking as perhaps an average rallycross guy, the reason the sport appeals is because I can come in hot, throw the car sideways into a turn and if I get it right, it was faster than just driving the race line. And if the next corner is relatively close and goes in the other direction, I'll use the snap back in the opposite direction to take me round that one. That's my ideal rallycross course, one that flows and rewards commitment.

2c

^This exactly.

I didn't see the course in CO so not commenting on that but I know from my home courses, travels and video watching that people use the phrase "technical" when really they should be using the phase "tight as f**k with no room for any alternate line and whoever's car happens to handle on rails or physically fit better at that point get's a huge advantage no one can do anything about and is not very fun to drive".;) Fine for SOLO suck for rallycross.

Technical to me implies more risk in cone hitting due to restrictions but rewards risk because there is still enough room to allow more than one line and reward maximum pushing and maximum flow. Which you can't do if you have cones 6" wider than the track of the car for a continuous stretch. To me technical is a series of pinch points in which you are free to hustle the car any way you want to keep momentum as long as you can get back into shape to make the next element. And provide enough margin for error that people will see pushing as a viable option and not just give up and have to phone in their driving effort for a whole section of course.

Cry me a river. A lot of racing series and events have been hurt by the economy. I think that is the primary reason west coast people did not make the trip. Also, to say that the east coast is the hub of the sport is a joke. There is plenty going on over here on the west, we just don't play the SCCA game as much as the east coast.



I don't think he meant East coast is the hub=because we have better rx out here. I took it as, and also believe myself, it's just a random twist of geography, population and amount of events. There are more regions having more events more frequently that are all within a days drive of each other (most being really only half a days drive). So yes it's definitely a "hub" in the sense of logistics but I don't think he meant that as a value judgment.

I really do think the economy has put a damper on travel. But I really think you can't underestimate how many people stayed away due to how Hastings and Tennessee went the last two years. I think without a doubt this was the biggest thing keeping people away and will get better over time when things change and people put it behind them.

It's why I didn't even bother considering it even though I actually wanted to check out Colorado's course. I have more fun at local and out of state non nationals by a very large margin compared to nationals. I know I'm not alone in this feeling as I have heard it from quite a few people.

[SoCalBoomer]

Well, those weren't the three questions (colorful ones above. . . :D )

Your proposal doesn't limit the number of events at all.

So, what do you do with the brilliant driver who doesn't have much money so can only attend a few events but can scrape together enough money to do one big one? Should not the champion be the best? Or just the person who can pump enough money into his hobby so he can go around and do mediocre in a BUNCH of events?

Which one should be champion?

The brilliant but broke guy, or the well-heeled but "okay" guy?

I want to bring the brilliant but broke guy (and I do have a couple of people in mind) in and reward them for their skill.

Your answers make sense, within their context, but you are still rewarding (almost explicitly under point #1) money over merit.

And I will always try to reward merit over money.

----

I really do think the economy has put a damper travel. But I really think you can't underestimate how many people stayed away due do the how Hastings and Tennessee went the last two years. I think without a doubt this was the biggest thing keeping people away and will get better over time when things change and people put it behind them.

+++ :headbang: to both points in this.

[rollo]

The tires that work for your region are the same as ours.

Actually we determined recently that that isn't really true.

Why don't you guys play SCCA anyways? What is the story behind that?

I think it goes back to the origins of rallycross in the US. The CRS (California Rally Series) and SCCA both started running events at more or less the same time ('98 or '99?). As I understand it, CRS rallycross was derived from rally (or perhaps more accurately, rallysprint) - the CRS being a rally-only organisation - whereas SCCA RallyCross(tm) was perhaps derived more from auto-x/Solo2.

Rallysprints, though, have been run out here for decades. Glen Helen, where we currently hold rallycross events, was hosting rallysprints as far back as the 80s. Rallysprints are the same kind of thing as rallycross - short course events on dirt - just with more allowable risk, as they require caged cars.

The CRS has a long history (~35 continuous years) as a rally organisation and I think that many of us, locally, identify strongly with that and enjoy being involved with something that has been enabling rally here for so long. As such, to be honest, getting my name in the CRS "past champions" list meant more to me than an SCCA national would have. No slam on the SCCA at all; just my own personal take on it.

For completeness' sake though, as Brent pointed out, in Northern California, SCCA SFR (San Francisco region) ran a rallycross series for a few years, but it petered out. I think there is some feeling locally that the SCCA seems to come and go from our sport and as such is not a good basket in which to place all our eggs, if that makes sense. I'm not assigning blame, saying anything is true or false or speaking for anyone. Just putting it out there.

Formula RallyX (FRX) is a promotional group independent of any sanctioning body which exists to promote rallycross wherever people want to run it. It runs regional championships under a similar ruleset to CRS.

The obvious way to reconcile all this is to run events that are both CRS and SCCA. The problem that always pops up is that the SCCA classing rules are incompatible with the CRS classing rules, and as such an event organiser has to jump through a lot of hoops to facilitate such an event. Predictably, neither organisation wants to budge on their classing rules, and not many organisers like jumping through yet more hoops.

What happens in actuality - especially in SoCal - is that people who have SCCA ties (from auto-x or otherwise) but no strong rally ties want to stay with the SCCA and develop an SCCA RallyCross program out here. People who are rallyists or have no strong SCCA ties have typically ended up at CRS events (since they have been so much more prevalent), and develop an affinity with the CRS. There's crossover, but not much.

That isn't to say that competitors wouldn't go to both kinds of events, but venues are few and there most likely are not enough vendors, organisers and resources to support two completely separate programs in the state. And fighting it out would, I suspect lead to both programs failing, which nobody wants.

Look at the San Diego event, for example, a huge Socal rallycross base with most of the entries local solo2 folks, a few socal rallycrossers and the rest made up of folks who traveled 500+ miles to attend, thank you Colorado guys.

As discussed previously, unfortunate timing and the need to compete over two days prevented the SD event from drawing as many of the SoCal regulars as it could have. It's incorrect to paint that as lack of local support.

Until more people start to attend the "big" events, like solo2, I just think it's hard to justify the money that will be lost trying to support a series, unless it starts as regional/divisional like solo2.

I personally don't understand the draw of a national event for something like this. Don't get me wrong, I love rallycross, but there's no way I'm driving halfway across the country to compete in an event. I don't get it why it is seen as something that must happen to grow the sport. In fact as I implied before, I don't even really know what "the sport" is in this context (the generic "driving around cones on a loose surface" or the specific "RallyCross as defined by the SCCA").

I'm somewhat inclined to suggest that if the SCCA wants to hold nationals that cater best to its constituents, it should get a map out, put dots where the biggest SCCA RallyCross programs are and pick a spot that's more or less equidistant from them.

If the SCCA wants to smoothly integrate California into its programs, it needs to consider adding the street mod class; but as we've learned recently (http://www.dirtyimpreza.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11922), where here that is a very popular class, most areas of the country have no need for it at all and in fact actively don't want any more classes.

So.. in closing, I don't have any answers, but hopefully there's some interesting background there.

[RallyTaco]

I don't like the cumulative championship idea only because it is too complicated and has too many loop holes. It's just not the same thing as say the RA cumulative championship. But the whoever feels like showing up to only the championship and being declared a champion kinda sucks too.

I think the points thing should be used as a prerequisite to qualify. Then the local season has more meaning and you can create incentive for more cross regional participation in the feeder championships and also make it feel like the people at the national have earned a place at the table.

But I would start the clock over at that point and let whoever qualifies for the championship fight it out at the national winner takes all which will mean more if everyone knows they fought to get there in the first place.

Building the championship to SOLO like proportions by whatever method is a non-starting fail in my mind. Got zero interest in that.

Build rx base by having more regions holding more events with more inter-region feeder championships and keep the national championship as a super meaningful manageable thing. Not by having every regional event have 200 people and 400 people for a national championship which will never ever work in the dirt.

By the way Colorado get an event in the mountains in guaranteed snow and I will be there even without Nationals someday.:twisted:



Finally, I have a far-fetched lead on an ideal location that has nationwide implications. There is a heavy equipment auction company called Richie Brothers. They have locations near just about every major metro area. Each of their facilities is 20-120 acres of pristine roadbed gravel. They use each facility 3 or 4 times per year, and they are practiaclly empty the rest of the time. I tried with the one by us once to no avail. If someone could make inroads, it might open up an opportunity for all the other sites. Look them up online.

Hope my answers made sense,

-Ken

I know exactly what you are talking about. They have expanded significantly in the last 10 years and seem to have been caught out by the economic down turn. Those places seem to have a square mile of gravel with a dozen pieces of equipment on it. Some of them I have driven by for 5 years and never seen them more than 5% full off equipment ever. It really would be genious to get these guys on board due to the amount of locations they have and the conditions and space they have. They were on my radar before but in MI they are leasing the space to auto plants to park cars here. :(

Oceans of gravel. This is the type of course environment I would consider a draw and a reason to try to go to nationals.


West of Chicago
http://tinyurl.com/ykoar3f

East of Nashville
http://tinyurl.com/ykn3n4q

Phoenix
http://tinyurl.com/ykw2fjb

[Rally OBXT]

...So, what do you do with the brilliant driver who doesn't have much money so can only attend a few events but can scrape together enough money to do one big one? Should not the champion be the best? Or just the person who can pump enough money into his hobby so he can go around and do mediocre in a BUNCH of events?

Which one should be champion?

The brilliant but broke guy, or the well-heeled but "okay" guy?

I want to bring the brilliant but broke guy (and I do have a couple of people in mind) in and reward them for their skill.

Your answers make sense, within their context, but you are still rewarding (almost explicitly under point #1) money over merit.

And I will always try to reward merit over money....

I gotta disagree with you on this one Mike. I don't think you should be able to show up on ONE race and be crowned a champ.

We don't do it over here for the CRS or FRX series, you have to earn your title by having the most points. If a person shows up to a bunch of events but only places say 3rd and 4th at all of them, he will beat a guy who get's 1st at only one event. Granted, this does not happen very much if at all, but if could happen.

Yes, the guy who got 1st may be a better driver, but though $hit for him. If he can't afford to go to more events then he need's to ge a better job. ;)

Heck, even in our upcomming "Novemberfest" event, the people who are in the runoff have earned their spot by competing in multiple events and hopefully doing well. If one of the kick ass SoCal drivers just showed up, say Scott G, Martti or Marvin for example, they would NOT participate in the runoff. You need to EARN that spot.

I don't think that rally x as a sport should cater to people with no $$$. Yes, you can enter a race for cheap and have fun and maybe even get 1st place. But if you want to make a championship run, you need to enter many races and hopefully do well. It cost $$$ to do something like that and I don't think we need to worry about people with no $$$. Like I said, if you can't afford it, get a better job or find a cheaper hobby.

[Rally OBXT]

Oh yeah, one more point on the whole $$$ thing.

I compete in a MY 2000 2.5RS with minimal mods, it cost me $5000. Yet a lot of the time I am going against WRX's, STI's and more recently, EVO X's. Those cars by FAR outclass mine in terms of $$$ spent. I don't complain about them spending more $$$ than me though, I just accept the fact that those people can afford those cars. I could theoreticly argue that I am being outspent and out prepped by them spending more $$$ on more advanced cars, but I don't. It's just part of the game.

[WAM]

One of the problems with a cumulative points approach is illustrated by our SoCal autox program. The year always starts with a bang, participation-wise. It stays strong throughout the summer and then dies off towards the end of the year. Reason? We have a points system and at some point later in the year people realize they're "out of it", and lose motivation. And stay home.

I had to figuratively toss a coin to determine if I would drive the 1000 miles to RX nationals this year. IE I weighed this and that and decided to give it a go. If I had been at a points disadvantage going in, I wouldn't have made the trek. And given California offers few SCCA events, it's likely I would have been at a points disadvantage.

[SoCalBoomer]

I'm not saying there should be no qualification for entry. . . I've voiced my opinion for some qualification for entering the National (somewhere - know it's on SCCABB; was likely on RallyXPortal, but I shut it off due to no traffic. . .it's somewhere)

I think you should have to have competed in X many races (region/division determining that number) before you can show up. At both Hastings events I attended, there were people there who had not ever participated in a Rallycross before (remember the guy in the Mazda RX-2 i think - pristine white driving suit? ROFL nice guy but had no idea) - RallyTaco's idea is right there.

Our Novemberfest is the best of both worlds, imho. The "Regional Runoffs" is for bragging rights (would be nice to have trophies, but dinero. . .sigh) and is invitational. You are only eligible if you have run events, and it's only the top three that show up from each region. RR is run between the actual event, which is NOT a championship; it's a multi-region points event - points earned at Novemberfest count for the home region.

But a series? Best for local - national logistics and economics dictate that it will end up money over merit.

And I compete in Rally2 (or SCCA Mod 2) with a nearly stock Neon. couple hundred bucks of mods (SRT-4 springs, replacement Monroe rear shocks, Iceman intake) and I do well. Counting purchase cost, I'm still under $4000. It's not car cost (although I think that comes into play) - the economic variable I'm talking about is travel and time.

Take a look at Ken's proposal and then see how you would "game" it if you had unlimited funds - because it's those with money who will win under his proposal.

I think having it be money that wins dilutes it. I don't want to see the team that can throw the most money at the car; I want to see the best driver. Don't we all? Put yourself in the young kid's shoes - he has not much money, but he's fast. But an older guy who has lots of disposable income wins the end of the year trophies because he has disposable income.

Doesn't that SUCK to you? Really? Honestly?

I guess it comes from having absolutely no money for years and barely being able to afford to drive right now.

[SoCalBoomer]

SoCalBoomer,

Thanks for the apology. Still wish I knew you by name.

If you don't have the guts to sign your own name, don't call me out by mine.
And Ken - all the info you need to figure out who I am is right here. I'm not hiding. You DO know me, I can guarantee that.

It wasn't an apology to you. I apologized that it caused a distraction and sent the discussion off on a tangent.

[legacymax]

Actually we determined recently that that isn't really true.


how, just because ken and eric run on snows, doesn't mean they are faster out here. Chris (m4 winner) runs soft rally tires and I run intermediates. All of the mentioned have been trading times all season.

Oh yeah, one more point on the whole $$$ thing.

I compete in a MY 2000 2.5RS with minimal mods, it cost me $5000. Yet a lot of the time I am going against WRX's, STI's and more recently, EVO X's. Those cars by FAR outclass mine in terms of $$$ spent. I don't complain about them spending more $$$ than me though, I just accept the fact that those people can afford those cars. I could theoreticly argue that I am being outspent and out prepped by them spending more $$$ on more advanced cars, but I don't. It's just part of the game.

I am in the same boat, 95 impreza with a 2.5. I excepted the fact a long time ago that others can afford those cars, so I try my best to bring competition up in the one I've got(or borrowed). A little different when you can't even afford to make it to enough of the race to compete for the title. Rallycross is a cheap motorsport, cheaper than solo 2 and anything else I can think of and it draws people because of that. I am not trying to make the sport "scca rallycross" as the title states, cater to just me, and I am not going to bitch about a series if it gets created. I will try my best compete in as many events as I can and I will leave it at that. But I know there are a lot of good drivers out in the same position or worse than I am. Just trying to put a different perspective in.
-Max

[SoCalBoomer]

how, just because ken and eric run on snows, doesn't mean they are faster out here. Chris (m4 winner) runs soft rally tires and I run intermediates. All of the mentioned have been trading times all season.
-Max

I think Phil meant for here because that's what you said.

Originally Posted by legacymax http://www.dirtyimpreza.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dirtyimpreza.com/forums/showthread.php?p=165794#post165794)
The tires that work for your region are the same as ours.
Where you are, yes, they may both do equally well. Where we are, the tires that work for you do not work for us.

Where we are, snows are a step down from rally tires - which is why they are placed between (Street Mod) non-snows (Street Stock) and rally tires (Rally - open)

Exceptions exist, as always, but we have tried it - same person, same time of day, just change tires and re-run, change tires and re-run, do it again, and it is repeatable, all day long if you want.

[legacymax]

i see

[SoCalBoomer]

i see said the blind man to his deaf horse? :headbang:

[LGT-FST]

National event with snow happens in Connecticut in January, Ner.org. I started traveling to national events when I thought I had my driving and car up to the task of competing at the top of class. When I do travel to another region to compete they know who I am and I get to know the top drivers from across the country. And as far as cost my codriver and I built our Audi for 6k, and it is competitive everywhere it goes. LOR

[rollo]

Oh yeah, one more point on the whole $$$ thing.

I compete in a MY 2000 2.5RS with minimal mods, it cost me $5000. Yet a lot of the time I am going against WRX's, STI's and more recently, EVO X's. Those cars by FAR outclass mine in terms of $$$ spent. I don't complain about them spending more $$$ than me though, I just accept the fact that those people can afford those cars. I could theoreticly argue that I am being outspent and out prepped by them spending more $$$ on more advanced cars, but I don't. It's just part of the game.

Also it would make no sense to complain as (as I think has been said once or twice before) dirt is the great equaliser (or equalizer if you will). (Not to be confused with The Equalizer (Edward Woodward))

That's what makes it fun, right? It doesn't matter that your OBXT would crush your RS in a drag race, or that it's worth four times as much - on dirt they could give each other a fair run for one another's money.

I think Phil meant for here [CA]

Indeed. A very contentious and very confusing thread a few weeks back lead us to the conclusion that the reason that nobody outside of the desert states understands the logic behind "street modified" type classes (i.e. modified cars running street rubber having their own class in which rally tyres are not allowed) is that elsewhere, rally tyres aren't the same massive advantage that they (almost always) are out here.

Thus, a national class doesn't make sense, yet the existing national classes don't really work for us. Conundrum.

[bfrancis827]

First off, WOW! This thread is hott!! I missed reading it last night and I have had a lot of catching up to do tonight. I started to multi-quote a bunch of posts, but then it got a little crazy because there are a lot of good things going on here and I think, for the most part everyone is on the same page. We all want to see RallyCross grow because it's freaking fun and in comparison to other motorsports, it's freaking cheap.

As for the money issue; it's still is a motorsport and when there is any amount of traveling involved, there are going to be travel expenses. If you look at any series, money is always a factor, we are just on a lower level then lets say the RA guys. I know last season, and the beginning of this season, I just couldn't afford to race. Sucked, but that's racing. I have been working a little more this year and was able to go to 3 RX's, that were 400+ miles away, in the span of a month. And to agree with what Ken said, yes, I was counting on contingency money as a way to pay for racing expenses, even before I won any.:mrgreen:

I completely agree with Dave (Rally OBXT), if you can't pay to play, then don't complain. Now, I also agree that there are ways to make it somewhat affordable, but I know for me it has always been a choice of whether to rallyX or do ________. This season was very slow, so if you wanted to race more, you had to travel(=expenses.)

As for how to make a National Championship affordable, fair to both coasts, and to truly have the best of the best competing, I don't really ever see there being a solution that everyone will be happy with. There will probably always be someone better then "you", but that they just couldn't make it. Should that take away from the person who did make it? I don't think so. Should they be called the National Champ? Thats a tough one and in my opinion, no.

The only "solution" I can come up with is an idea based loosely on the NFL (even though I don't watch foosball). What if we kept the Eastern and Western Championships and have them be preceded by an Eastern and Western Series, but instead of having a "National Championship", we had a Pro Bowl. It would mostly be for bragging rights. We could call it a National Championship, I guess, to get some contingency money involved, so more people would consider making a long journey, but leaving the "Official Champions" as Eastern Champion and Western Champion. (Look at the MLB, they don't play the entire world and yet they are "World Champions"

This is probably the longest post I have ever made:roll: and now my eyes hurt. Sorry for any grammatical errors, my wife isn't here to proof read my post.

Brian

[Ken Cashion]

And Ken - all the info you need to figure out who I am is right here. I'm not hiding. You DO know me, I can guarantee that.

It wasn't an apology to you. I apologized that it caused a distraction and sent the discussion off on a tangent.


I guess I'm not as into games and riddles as you. Now that I've taken a few moments to discover your identity, I'm even more certain that you owe me an apology (or a dozen). I guarantee you know why.

[SoCalBoomer]

no games, no riddles. More people know me as Boomer than know me as Mike (which always struck me as ridiculous. . .but hey. . .).

And, no, I don't owe you any apologies. Shooting down your proposals back in aught-five (or whatever) was not personal, just needed to be done. I used the means and contacts available to me (although, it must be said, they, and you, called me - not the other way around).

[bfrancis827]

Break, Break, Break.!

[rollo]

Break, Break, Break.!

+1

I like that DI has become a conduit for all interested parties to discuss the sport as I don't think that has really happened before, but let's keep it on the present and the future, and try to be respectful.

Thanks.

[pomspeed]

Phil, I can agree with that. Discussing how to make the sport better is key. Whether it's SCCA or FRX or ? I try to look at what helps the sport, whether it be classes or tire rules or how to make events run better and in the spirit of fair competition.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled program.