Is there anything you can't do in RM4?

[pcowan]

I was just looking through the SCCA rulebook today and I was hardpressed to find anything that was illegal in the rules. I mean beyond stooopid things like electric cars and turbine engines. It seems that as long as it looks like some sort of car that you claim it is, and has a combustion engine then it's legal in SCCA RallyX.

Oh and why is it called out that one is "allowed" to race a fully preped/logged rally car in RM4. Is this just a leftover symantic from the days when they could run in RP4 (circa 2005)?
--pete

[noisycricket]

That's a catchall so that stage rally vehicles can run in a rallycross even if they are not legal for any of the classes. I would imagine that there is no cherrypicking - if you enter your car as being a stage rally car and thus exempt from rallycross regulations, you will need to have a catalyst (if car had one OEM) and a restrictor (if turbo/AWD). If you don't want to have either of those, you have to meet the rallycross ruleset.

The overriding rule basically is "If the rules don't say you can, then you can't."

A lot of the rallycross rules are vague. When I ask for clarification, I tend to first get a "Well that should be obvious!", followed by other people saying "Hmm, he has a point..." followed by an official rules clarification. The battery issue is the biggie, used to be that none of the classes allowed moving of the battery, therefore it was illegal in all of the classes. 6.2.D.16 and 6.2.E.17 are kind of my fault then :)

I know there are some goodies that are not legal in Modified classes, or at least were illegal in 2008 but are now legal in 2009, and vice-versa. The body rule being my favorite. Before, the rule was just that removable exterior body panels may be replaced. Now, the rule is that the "shape of the body must remain recognizable as that of the manufacturer's make and model." This means I could trim the nonstructural skin from my RX-7 and replace it all with carbon fiber, or painted Saran Wrap if I could get it to keep its shape, but I can't put a Lancia 037 lookalike nose on it. (Which I badly WANT to do :) )

You could also argue that putting an STi wing on a WRX, or vice-versa, makes a car illegal for Modified, since it no longer resembles the car's make/model. How do you recognize an STi at a glance? The giant grabhandle on the trunk!

(BTW - I got the word that gauges/idiot lights count as "convenience items" and are therefore legal in ALL classes - so my Stock class VW is getting a shift light. If it's not a gauge, then it's an idiot light)

So somewhere in all of the "X is free" there is something somebody missed. Actually there is a lot of things missed. Most of it could easily be dismissed as being inferred in other rules, but the problem with that is, if the rules don't say you can, then you can't.

Besides converters/restrictors, I thought of another something legal for rallycross that is not legal for stage rally. Motorcycle engined cars. Not that they'd be competitive, but Modified is not about having a competitive car, it's about just running what ya brung...

[noisycricket]

Separate post so avoid the DR:TL thing.

Things not specifically allowed, so therefore you can't:

Body modification that changes the shape of the car (notchback hatch conversion for hatchback, for example)

Relocating the strut towers (am told that this falls under "components and geometry" under Suspension, and/or implied in that the only inner body structure that CANNOT be modified is the inner roof structure... but it's all implied, and I've also received conflicting info on this)

Likewise, trimming of nonessential body pieces such as mounting tabs, certain portions of inner fender panels, etc. Implied but not explicit. I can understand them wanting to leave this one vague. It's one thing to remove some spotwelded brackets, it's another to remove, say, the floor. Either one can be "implied" as being acceptable, but neither one is explicitly allowed.

Cooling system must be stock. Depends on if you qualify it as being part of the engine or not. Part of why I want a rallycross pickup is so I can move the radiator to the bed... but anybody with a beefed radiator, or upgraded cooling fan (ahem, me) is skirtin' some gray area.

Interestingly, if you have a *factory* (not sublet to an engineering firm like Prodrive) rally car, it would be Stock class legal as long as you were on street tires. There is no minimum production run or US-spec requirement anymore. Heck, you might even make the case that Prodrive, for example, *is* a manufacturer...

[MatthewakaMatt]

I actually was wondering about this too. One thing that wasn't mentioned directly in the rules is modifying, removing, or replacing subframes or non-interior sections of the body. (Though it would be arguable that sections 10, 12, and 16 might combine to argue about this.) This is a relevant question to me because I have been wanting to build up a lightweight M4 car, and I would hate do something that wouldn't let me run it in rallycross. As one example, grafting the turbo AWD drivetrain system from a DSM into a Colt hatchback requires cutting out the spare tire well and making a custom rear subframe and differential mount, which may or may not be legal in M4.

The main restriction carried over from Stock is having to be a closed cockpit production car (or at least have been one once upon a time). If this rule wasn't in place, I would love to build some crazy AWD dune buggy sporting giant wings in the spirit of the A Modified autocross cars. A souped up street or rally car probably would just be too heavy to keep up with something like that.

edit: noisycricket brings up some good points on strut tower relocation and adding/changing wings being additional vague areas.

[sniper1rfa]

Actually, i've always wondered about the "must be internal combustion" rule.

Why? Electric cars are sweet. Turbines would be slow as hell... :P

[noisycricket]

This is a relevant question to me because I have been wanting to build up a lightweight M4 car, and I would hate do something that wouldn't let me run it in rallycross. As one example, grafting the turbo AWD drivetrain system from a DSM into a Colt hatchback requires cutting out the spare tire well and making a custom rear subframe and differential mount, which may or may not be legal in M4.

The Solo rules tend to say "Other modifications may be performed to facilitate legal modifications but they may serve no other purpose." So, say, if you had a Saturn, which uses the front sway bar as a suspension locating member, you could not install a high zoot multipiece swaybar and then completely re-engineer the front suspension as a result.

I haven't seen similar phraseology in the Rallycross ruleset. However.

My previous M2 car had a hacked up floor in order to facilitate suspension design/geometry alteration.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/738485/3link08.JPG

At the GLDiv championship event in '07, which *may* have counted Nationally (I am not sure), somebody showed up with a Mirage that was converted to all whee drive using Eclipse parts, for ease of finding replacement components in the US. The floor was comprehensively hacked in the trunk area. He was even showing it off to people, nobody protested him...

The main restriction carried over from Stock is having to be a closed cockpit production car (or at least have been one once upon a time). If this rule wasn't in place, I would love to build some crazy AWD dune buggy sporting giant wings in the spirit of the A Modified autocross cars. A souped up street or rally car probably would just be too heavy to keep up with something like that.

I have seen some regions allowing buggy style vehicles to run, provided that they have the necessary window nets/arm restraints. I believe this is permissible under the "Regions may create or combine classes to satisfy local need" rule, so you could possibly run such a thing regionally, but not for divisional or national points. With permission from your local powers that be, of course.

In practice, they aren't as fast. At the low speeds we run at, you do need some weight to keep the tires on the ground instead of skipping over the bumps, it seems. And buggies, at least, seem to have a fear of turning, unless they're being driven on a straight :)

[pcowan]

I'd infer stock make & model to not include "trim", therefor the car needs to resemble the general shape of a Subaru Impreza, not speciallically a WRX or a STi or a 22B or a Spec-C or an S204.... or whatever. So I can't put a Beatle shell on my 2.5RS but I can change my 02 WRX to have 06 WRX headlights.

With regards to suspension geometry... I could have sworn that was free on M4. Does that mean caster/ALK mods are out? This would also include camber plates. I'll have to paw back through the reg again, sounds unlikely.
--pete

[MatthewakaMatt]

With regards to suspension geometry... I could have sworn that was free on M4. Does that mean caster/ALK mods are out? This would also include camber plates. I'll have to paw back through the reg again, sounds unlikely.
--pete
Yes, the suspension and all of its components and geometry are open in M4 (section 9 of the Modified rules, "Any suspension may be used. This allows changes to all components and geometry."). I'm mostly wondering if chopping up or reshaping the floor or subframe in the process of modifying the suspension or drivetrain is legal in M4/M2.

[SoCalBoomer]

You can add a "buggy" class - but make sure they have a "fixed roof" which I believe is required of all cars (the removable but still hard-top miata being specificially mentioned). . .

We have one guy come out so we had him attach a sheet of metal to the top of his cage - make a roof. :D Pretty easy and heck, it shades his noggin so he saw the benefits! LOL

Pete - I believe lights are open all the way down to Production (might even be in Stock) so you could modify your lights (or remove them altogether) as you wish. I'd have to take a look again, but I remember the conversation back when I was a Div Steward.


Caster plates are specifically mentioned somewhere. I thought they were open in Mod, but I'll take a look a bit later.

[noisycricket]

Pete - I believe lights are open all the way down to Production (might even be in Stock) so you could modify your lights (or remove them altogether) as you wish. I'd have to take a look again, but I remember the conversation back when I was a Div Steward.


I think lights are open everywhere. Detroit region, for night events, only permits two addtional lights for Prepared and none for Stock. (That would fall under the category of "regional supps")

Caster plates are specifically mentioned somewhere. I thought they were open in Mod, but I'll take a look a bit later.

They are legal in Prepared as long as the plates do not require modification of the chassis. Only factory installed or approved methods of alignment are legal in Stock.

Came back here to post that proposed rule changes for 2010 have been posted on the official SCCA forum. Cut and pasted the Mod class rules for your enjoyment:

6.2. E. 3. All non-essential components may be removed, replaced or relocated for the purpose of weight reduction or balance with the following requirements:
a. The shape of the body must remain recognizable as that of the manufacturer’s make and model.
b. The body must be made of a fire resistant material.
c. Structural strength of the vehicle may not be reduced or compromised.
d. Doors, hoods, trunk lids, sunroofs, hatchbacks, etc. need not function as originally designed. Bumpers, grilles, lights and trim may be removed. Side mirrors and tail/stop lights are not required.
e. Side and rear windows may be removed or replaced with Lexan or equivalent.
Windshield may be replaced with Lexan or equivalent with addition of a full roll cage built to SCCA Improved Touring specifications or better.
f. The interior components may be completely removed and/or replaced. Any edges created by these modifications that the driver or passenger may contact must be properly insulated to prevent injury.
g. Roof panels must be metal of at least the same thickness as original. Sunroof panels may be replaced with sheet metal of at least the same thickness as an original roof skin without sunroof. Inner roof structure may only be modified with addition of a full roll cage built to SCCA Improved Touring specifications or better.
4. remove
5. Any eligible (per 6.1) log booked race car or car currently legal for stage rally competition in other sanctioning bodies may run in its appropriate Rally Modified class regardless of whether it meets the Rally Modified rules.
6. remove
10. remove
11. remove
13. remove
16. remove
17. Renumber this after deletions.


Holy crap, that's a lot of changes. 4, 6, 10, 11, 13, and 16 just wiped off. OTOH, looking at the rules, they were just made redundant by the changes above.

[Qman]

Hmmm, I have always taken the approach to M4 or RM4 that I run this class because the restriction are not there. I guess I subscribe to the belief that if it doesn't say I can't then I can. I understand the other side of things as well but like my way of thinking better!! :machinegunleft:

I do not change body panels, or things that alter the body in any way. My battery is in the stock location. I did upgrade suspension to the adjustable dampening AGX's and better springs. My mods were specifically done to the motor. Cams, intake, exhaust, lightweight flywheel, piggyback, etc. Not bad for a '96 Impreza Brighton with a 2.5 N/A swap. M4 class winner 2 years running(2007, 2008, for Pacific Rally Group)

I do not like a huge rule book in rallycross. No reason to have a class for each vehicle running. Autocross is too complicated.

[Draco-REX]

They need to clear up the cooling system issue... It has such a small impact on performance, it shouldn't be an easy way to protest someone out of a win. Hell, it should be open for M4 anyways.

[pcowan]

You people in SCCA Rallycross want to end up hidebound. . .go right ahead. No skin off mine.


Wow, if only we had a messiah to lead us to a reasonable and simplified rule set, then we could throw off the shackles of 'the man'. But who? Who could we find to show us the unjustice that we suffer under? Who to preach the wonders of an alternative?
/flame
--pete

[SoCalBoomer]

wow. glad I could be the outlet for your bad day.


I'll stop. Won't happen again.