A different kind of rally driving school.

[UP2MTNS]

I'm just brainstorming/throwing out some ideas I've had rolling around in my brain and I thought I'd make it a public discussion.

I want to put together some kind of school 'inbetween' the normal Paul Eklund/CRS Rally Schools.....and the much more $$/higher profile schools like Tim O'Neils.

My philosphy being...sure I can always get a 'little' more out of PE's and CRS' school (I've been to 3 total now), but in general, I feel like I've hit a plateau with my RallyX abilities.

On the other end, I just don't have +$4K to go over to TO's school....and to be honest, after reading Aaron's write up, its not 100% what I'm looking for either.


I (personally) want....a safe, high speed, class to help take it to the next level.

All the 'technique' stuff is great...but no substitute for experiencing corners at 50-60mph. To date, I've only experienced that on stage (co-driving)...and well, I'd like a little more practice.


So what do we do? Even at an OHV park, unless you properly close off roads, taking corners at 50mph just isn't safe.

I could probably set up a venue like Valllejo (long enough) for 1 or 2 high speed elements (long straight w/a narrow corner at the end, and a high speed slalom).

Ideally, I'd like to see something like the Ridgecrest (Desert Storm/HDT Rallies) venue which is a safe track if you go 'off' with lots of elements/variability.

I think as long as we keep top speed below 70mph (and the elements short), I bet we could get normal rallyX sanctioning to keep insurance costs down. Then there's no cages, just helmets and a few instructors.

I'm thinking costs would be around $200/person with essentially unlimited runs...could also double as a test and tune day for people with real rally cars that wanted some practice and to tune their setup (AKA ME, lol). Or even people with street cars that want to experiment with different sway bars, or just disconnecting their front...rear...whatever, and then to take a run to see the difference.

Hell, depending on what the ridgecrest venue costs, we might even make it cheaper since the 1st event might be a little lacking in instructors (depends on interest, #'s, and how we compensate the instructors).


OK....its out there. Thoughts? Ideas? Criticisms? Poke holes in it...what am I not thinking about/considering?

[Newk_Rally]

sounds like an awesome idea i've been wanting to get some instruction on my driving i've had minor training with instructors but only for road racing / auto-x nothing in the dirt...depending on when and where (and if i have $200) i'd be extremely intrested attending

[409industries]

Without the instructors, isn't this what we do at California City already? You need to come run our "course" :twisted:.

[UP2MTNS]

Without the instructors, isn't this what we do at California City already? You need to come run our "course" :twisted:.

well, I'm looking for a little more 'organization' than that...lol. Obviously if its NO instructors, then yes, its just a test and tune day.

I personally wouldn't want to organize anything like this w/o insurance. In retrospect, I look back at that dirtymeet at gorman back in 07.....eek, that could have been ugly.

I think the ridgecrest venue is perfect because it has the formal 'rally roads' (as opposed to an open lot w/cones). Otherwise, we can just go out to JV and set up: 250 L5 into r5< 250 L6 into !R6>R4 50 !!L2< 50 R3 long 50 L4 long etc.


'ideally' it would be max 25 students, 3:1 student to instructor ratio.

[subyspawn]

HDT was very very rough, the dirt got turned up easily with big rocks underneath. Now, there were 20 cars running the same course 8 times but you might want to think about some sort of maintenance for that venue. Other than that, Ridgecrest would be a good location.

I think it would be helpful, also, to have fully prepped cars to do this in, 60+ around a corner in a non-caged car vs a caged car is still very different. I guess it just depends on what you want out of the time you are there.

[409industries]

I wasn't out to dis your idea. I would be really interested in something like this. Course conditions would be a big concern of mine, definitely.

Would the instructors be compensated for their time? Is that factored into the estimated cost to attend this rally clinic?

How much did the Kris / the organizers of HDT have to shell out to use the land in Ridgecrest?

[UP2MTNS]

I wasn't out to dis your idea. I would be really interested in something like this. Course conditions would be a big concern of mine, definitely.

Would the instructors be compensated for their time? Is that factored into the estimated cost to attend this rally clinic?

How much did the Kris / the organizers of HDT have to shell out to use the land in Ridgecrest?

dis? no dis! :D


The venue cost and instructor comp is what I'd have to figure out. I know PE doesn't comp much, I think the CRS instructors are volunteers?

I think it'd be easier to get instructors down by you guys than up here.

and yes, I'd want that all incorporated in the fees. I guess I shouldn't throw out numbers like '$200' since I have no idea what that venue costs if we did it there.

$200/person (for about 25 people) would be fine for Valljeo since I know what the costs are there, but again, that's not as 'rally-esque' as Ridgecrest.

re: course maintenance...I'd prefer to avoid the softer corners, and just use some of the normal gravel corners to avoid big rutting/rocks. I remember some of those sandy corners in Jack's Neon.....I busted his axle in one of them ;)

[GodSquadMandrake]

What about a TSD rally? It gives you a heck of a lot more drive time and miles than Rallycross but it's not as organized or competitive or fast as a stage rally.

[rollo]

Jon, what you're talking about sounds very much like a rallysprint minus competition/timing plus a school/instructor ridealong/test & tune element. Apart from HDT, the closest thing we had recently was the Imperial Stages (http://www.imperialstagesrally.com/) rally/"super rallycross"? Except.. it never happened.

There were also the GC R4 events, but obviously they aren't coming back any time soon. Shame cos they were damn fun.

Anyway, there are CRS rules and regs around rallysprint (http://www.californiarallyseries.com/Rulebook/index.aspx#rallysprint_championship) but there hasn't been a championship since 2004 - not coincidentally the same year that Tombstone closed. But since Coefficient 1 events also count towards a rallysprint championship, and with HDT counting as two Coefficient 1 events, just two more and we got ourselves a championship... and moar trophies :D

I do think having a competitive element would bring more people out and make it more viable, and it'd be perfect for shakedowns, pre-rally testing and so on.

The problem is that if you're gonna be barrelling sideways into corners at 50 and 60 mph, especially in a sanctioned event, you need a cage at the very least. Rallysprint rules specifically call for it, and with good reason IMO.

Anyway, we've talked about this idea a few times in the past, but there have never been enough appropriate cars to do it. I think that may have changed now, and there are definitely people out there who'd build a car for events like this (Isamu :D).

Rambling thoughts. But I'd love to see CRS Rallysprint come back.

[UP2MTNS]

I also like the rally sprint competition idea, cheaper, more low key, etc.

For the 'school'....its not like people would be doing laps at Ridgecrest like we do for the competitive rallies. Just like at CRS or PE's school....we'd set up for a certain corner to practice a certain exercise, then shut down.......turn around, repeat.

examples:

'high speed turn'....set up a the end of the long straight at Ridgecrest where in goes into a long L3 (?) sweeper (going counter clockwise)....the starting point MAYBE allows you to get up to 60mph before the corner. So in that sense, its more controlled than just coming down a straight at top speed, etc. STOP, turn around, do it from the other direction, repeat.

'high speed connecting turns'....I know there's one or two places that are basically a rallyX slalom, but more like 45 mph (rather than 20mph)....so that would simply be practicing your snap steering at higher, but still fairly safe, speeds. Again, after 4-5 turns, shut down....turn around, repeat.

and maybe afew others....basically rallyX components, but on a bigger scale so 2x, maybe 3x faster, but still for short bursts so nothing gets crazy out of control.


I like the idea of making it a 2 day event.....'school day' and then a competition day. The problem is, once you make it a rally sprint event, you need a cage. i'm trying to up the speed a little bit, but keep cages out of the equation.

[Rally OBXT]

I see what you are saying Jon and I like it.

That being said, if you want some safe high speed action in the dirt it proves quite difficult to find. Lots of problems if you just go out on some back country road but it's free. A safe way to go is a stage rally, but it' expensive. The middle ground is tough to figure out.

The only true high speed performance driving that I can afford is HPDE. No, it's not dirt, but many things you learn / practice on track translate over to rally. You need to practice your braking points (just like to need to in dirt). You do heal - toe downshifting. You can even practice you LFB (not to pitch it sidways, but to control your corner speed and be right on the edge of grip) You get the feeling of what it is like to dive into corners at high speeds (60+ MPH) and you learn how to apex a corner properly. All this you can do in your every day car WITHOUT a cage.

[rollo]

and maybe afew others....basically rallyX components, but on a bigger scale so 2x, maybe 3x faster, but still for short bursts so nothing gets crazy out of control.

Yeah.. I hear you. I just can't see how you'd get insurance for an organised event at 3x rallyx speeds in stock vehicles.

I like the idea of making it a 2 day event.....'school day' and then a competition day. The problem is, once you make it a rally sprint event, you need a cage. i'm trying to up the speed a little bit, but keep cages out of the equation.

Yeah I guess rallysprint is a different discussion. But honestly, for what you wanna do, I say get your car built up, get a rally posse together and head out to Cal City or wherever. Then spend the first real event taking it easy and just getting used to the speeds.

[SoCalBoomer]

What about a TSD rally? It gives you a heck of a lot more drive time and miles than Rallycross but it's not as organized or competitive or fast as a stage rally.

TSD doesn't give a stage-rally-style driving experience - perhaps some of the navigation elements might give you some benefit, but the driving won't.



Jon, Aaron, Phil, et al - I have a couple of thoughts:

1. Since Area whatever-it-is is so close to Ridgecrest, I wonder if we might be able to persuade Ray and Mike G. to revamp their curriculum a bit. . . something that might split into RallyX, Beg Rally, Intermediate Rally. RallyX has its own theory section/driving section; Beg Rally has the basic theory section (might be combined with Int Rally) and then heads to the fairgrounds for the basic driving stuff (circle, 8's, short series of turns); Int Rally does theory and then heads to the rally course where a couple of sections are used to deal with "real life" circumstances - including a soft sandy area (I mean, ya gotta know how to deal, right?), some off-camber stuff. . .whatever.

2. Setting up "scenarios" is something we could do at Ridgecrest or Glen Helen pretty easily. You said Vallejo has the room, and both RC and GH easily have room - plus GH has some additional elements we could throw in. Control the circumstances a bit and require caged cars and such and I think this would be do-able.

Obviously the logistics would need to be worked out, but I think it would be very feasible.

[UP2MTNS]

if CRS added that to their curriculum, I'd go again....and pay more.

Which reminds me something I"m missing...class time....you just can't stick someone in a car and have them go 50mph into a dirt corner....you still need to have some classroom time to at least discuss the techniques.

[SoCalBoomer]

if CRS added that to their curriculum, I'd go again....and pay more.

Which reminds me something I"m missing...class time....you just can't stick someone in a car and have them go 50mph into a dirt corner....you still need to have some classroom time to at least discuss the techniques.

I agree completely - and someone MUST use the word Hysteresis . . .

[rollo]

Which reminds me something I"m missing...class time....you just can't stick someone in a car and have them go 50mph into a dirt corner....you still need to have some classroom time to at least discuss the techniques.

I'm pretty sure that's what almost everyone does actually. You know the techniques and the theory Jon, we all do. It's the practice that's lacking. What's with all the dithering here? :tongue:

[rollo]

I agree completely - and someone MUST use the word Hysteresis . . .

I'd think hysteresis (as applied to tyres anyway) would be more applicable in on-road than loose surface competition.

Good word though :D

[Tommy Gun Rally]

tyres, organised, seems we have an englishman in our midst..... :D

[anaonbd]

Jon.. There's CORE and they do once in a while have rally sprints, and well if you want to pay the whole $20 you can run as many times as you want on their rally sprint course. It would cost more to have an organised event (somewhere in the range of what you were talking about).

[SoCalBoomer]

I'd think hysteresis (as applied to tyres anyway) would be more applicable in on-road than loose surface competition.

Good word though :D

It's just as applicable in the dirt - just the border isn't as solid as it is on tarmac. :D

Of course, you R4 guys tend to just toss it out the window anyway! ROFL. would definitely be a fun conversation.

[rollo]

tyres, organised, seems we have an englishman in our midst..... :D

Very observant of you Eli. Two actually :D

Jon.. There's CORE and they do once in a while have rally sprints, and well if you want to pay the whole $20 you can run as many times as you want on their rally sprint course. It would cost more to have an organised event (somewhere in the range of what you were talking about).

Dunno about CORE but we have a few CORR tracks round here and they haven't let us loose on them yet :)

It's just as applicable in the dirt - just the border isn't as solid as it is on tarmac. :D

I thought hysteresis was to do with the "memory effect" or rebound quality of rubber? I can see it on slippy or otherwise grip-compromised asphalt, but when the surface is literally deforming under you, I'm not as convinced. Admittedly it would take a brain several sizes bigger than mine to comprehend everything that's going on down there.

Of course, you R4 guys tend to just toss it out the window anyway! ROFL. would definitely be a fun conversation.

It is true to say that the subject of hysteresis is not top of mind when trying to go as fast and sideways as possible around a long unconstrained sweeper :D

[Azewaldo]

CORE (Colorado Off Road Extreme (http://www.coloradooffroadextreme.com/)) is a place out in Colorado that seems to somehow know how to have way too much legal fun for their own good.

[rollo]

CORE (Colorado Off Road Extreme (http://www.coloradooffroadextreme.com/)) is a place out in Colorado that seems to somehow know how to have way too much legal fun for their own good.

Thanks Dusty. I knew there was a CORE out there somewhere but Google was no help. Shame Colorado's so damn far away.

[thad]

count me in.