Help me figure out my rally engine...

[Daniel B]

Help me choose an engine…

Goals:
DO NOT care about horsepower! I do care about reliability. I want the most reliability I can afford. I would like the engine to last as long as possible. The car does not need to have ODB2 to pass emissions. I would prefer not to have to play with wiring for reliability issues, but wiring is not something that scares me – I actually enjoy it.

What I have in my garage:
-’97 ej22 (from an Impreza Outback Sport) with 240,000kms. It was heated pretty good once on a TSD when I overfilled the oil. The head gaskets appeared to have suffered as it ate a bit of coolant for the next 10.000kms or so before I pulled it out of the car. It has sat on an engine stand for the last 2 years. It was running strong with no unusual noises the last time I ran it.
-’97 ej22 with ~200,000kms (unknown history). Leaky valve covers and it was stored outside in the rain before I got it (for free)
-’97 ej22 with 185,000kms (from and Impreza ‘L’). It was in a TSD/Rally-x Toy it’s entire life. It has developed a ticking/rattle I have yet to diagnose – could be valves needing adjustment, could be rod knock…
-’94 ej18 (from and Impreza ‘L’) with 175,000kms. Overheated once for 10minutes. The wires to the rad fan were severed and it puked out boiling coolant while it was idling beside me before I shut it off. I have 25,000 problem free kms on this engine, including 10,000 after the overheating. The rear main seal and valve cover gaskets are leaky. No funny noises.
-Complete wiring harness and ECU for the ej22 and the ej18

I know very little about engines. I have spent the last 4-5 years trying to learn as much as possible about my cars with the exception of the engine and transmission. That being said, I’ve done a lot of reading lately, and the idea of rebuilding a motor does not scare me at all. I’m ready to learn.

I’m also curious what is required to properly rebuild a motor? What can I do in my garage vs. what will need to be outsourced for machining, etc?

Thanks!

[Gravel Crew Rally Team]

What car are you building, you have listed quite a few cars from where the engines came from but don't know which one is yours.
Do you want to turbo? Or keep it NA?
The subaru engines are actually quite reliable stock.
You can rebuild your engine in your garage but you probably will be needing the assistance of a machine shop to do the head work and I would reccomend using the machine/engine shop to do the bottom end of your engine. Dissasembly and reassembly can be done at home.
But more detail of what you are trying to accomplish would get you better and more clear answers.

[UP2MTNS]

What car are you building, you have listed quite a few cars from where the engines came from but don't know which one is yours.


well, I think he's throwing his options out there to us and asking if anyone w/experience can say its better/easier/more reliable to use one option over the other.

I can't help with with that, but I can say, since you've got a couple of ej22's...I'd use that for the lower end. Since this is for rally, if you're going to do one, you might as well do TWO and have a spare. Find a good set of heads w/a matching ECU and you're done.

Since you don't care about power (But will, eventually), I'd simply go as cheap/stock as you can on the first shortblock, but spend some money on the heads/cams/PnP.

Build the 2nd one up a bit more....higher compression ratio, forged pistons, etc for more power when you have more experience. Do the 2nd build over time as $$ allows.

At least, that would be my strategy.

good luck.

[g wilikers]

lots of words


yea, what he said.

if you need help, hit me up. I have done a couple of engine and some of them still run. :roll::mrgreen:

greg

[409industries]

This could be an interesting thread, but we'll need more information about what class your car will be competing in, etc.

[Gravel Crew Rally Team]

Mine still runs like a champ!!!!!!! Now waiting for more power.

[Daniel B]

What car are you building, you have listed quite a few cars from where the engines came from but don't know which one is yours.

This is the car:
http://www.dirtyimpreza.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8553

I own all of the engines and wiring listed. The 2.2's are ODB2 without the EGR valve. The car I'm building HAD the wiring for the 1.8l ODB1 and the associated dash. I mention the dash because I intend to use the one that come with the car (if it makes sense) since it is the only dash I own that came without airbags - it's smaller, lighter, and the shape relects less light in the driver/co-driver area.

Do you want to turbo? Or keep it NA?

NA for sure! In a year or two I will consider turbo, but not now, not until I finish a few events.

You can rebuild your engine in your garage but you probably will be needing the assistance of a machine shop to do the head work and I would reccomend using the machine/engine shop to do the bottom end of your engine. Dissasembly and reassembly can be done at home.
But more detail of what you are trying to accomplish would get you better and more clear answers.

That was some great info, right along the lines of what I wanted to hear. But, Engines remain a gray area to me, so... I have to ask: what does it mean "to do the bottom end"?

Thanks

[Daniel B]

well, I think he's throwing his options out there to us and asking if anyone w/experience can say its better/easier/more reliable to use one option over the other.

Bingo! That's 100% correct.

I can't help with with that, but I can say, since you've got a couple of ej22's...I'd use that for the lower end. Since this is for rally, if you're going to do one, you might as well do TWO and have a spare. Find a good set of heads w/a matching ECU and you're done.
Build the 2nd one up a bit more....higher compression ratio, forged pistons, etc for more power when you have more experience. Do the 2nd build over time as $$ allows.

I didn't think about it that way... I like redundancy and spare parts... Hmmm...

Since you don't care about power (But will, eventually), I'd simply go as cheap/stock as you can on the first shortblock, but spend some money on the heads/cams/PnP.

Tempted. So very tempted, but the heads/cams/PnP will still be stealing from the suspension/entry fee fund.

good luck.

Thanks.

[Daniel B]

This could be an interesting thread, but we'll need more information about what class your car will be competing in, etc.

The car is going to run in OPEN CLASS... because I can :mrgreen:

CARS (the Canadian sanctioning body) allows me to run in open, I want to be completely unrestricted while preping the car.

[g wilikers]

The car is going to run in OPEN CLASS... because I can :mrgreen:

CARS (the Canadian sanctioning body) allows me to run in open, I want to be completely unrestricted while preping the car.

so you are building a car to have fun or do you have the funds to build a competitive car??? There is a very big difference in time, money and preparation. Just because you can, dosnt mean you should.

Dont get me wrong I love the whole underdog thing. But at some point you want to be able to tell potential sponsors (family, friends, business partners, tv interviewers, magazine writers etc..) of your accomplishment or achievements in a particular class. If all you can say is i am having a blast coming in last all the time, because there are guys with WAY bigger bugets. Well thats OK, but at some pooint it is nice to get a trophy, plaque or medal (maybe even some money, tires etc.. if your luckey)

in the begining try and focus on maximum seat time in what ever class. A low maitence car that dosnt break a lot of stuff and that is well prepaired will help. Aarons car is an excellent example. well built, with good parts and the support of DI peeps FTMFW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

my .02 :headbang:

greg

[UP2MTNS]

I have to ask: what does it mean "to do the bottom end"?

Thanks

bottom end = short block (its on the bottom, 'below' the heads)

longblock = bottom end and heads.

[pomspeed]

Like Jon said the bottom end is the short block meaning that is where the crank connecting rods and piston are located, so in a Subie, it's the middle of the motor. When you take the heads of the motor what you have left is the Bottom end(middle) Subarus themselves add a flavor of special since, like VW's you have to split the case to get to the crankshaft and connecting rods.

You'll really want to pick up at least one book on rebuilding engines. They are more just nuts and bolts and metal parts. The most important thing to pay attention to is bearing clearances. Another consideration is the attention needed to keep metal parts from touching "scratching" the cylinder walls during reassembly.

Very cool that you're ready to learn what it takes to build motors, it isn't rocket science, but it has its science itself, porting, cams, bearing clearance, etc.

Good luck

[KevinWelker]

Punt.



My advice would be to use the 2.2 from the 'L' to get started. Drop it in the car, get it running how you see fit and diagnose the ticking noise (cross your fingers that it's just valves). Since you have more 2.2 engines around you could Frankenstein one together if you needed to without actually buying much of anything. The blocks almost never warp, so the worst you would have to do is send the heads out to be decked on either of the 2.2s you have sitting there that are questionable (sans rod knock of course). That would make them stout enough to get you out on stage and having fun. If they go, just pick up another 2.2 used, probably cost you much less than the cost of bearings, head studs, gaskets, etc etc etc for a rebuild. Honestly spending money on doing a buildup of a 2.2 NA engine would be wasteful and better spent on tires and entry fees.

You CAN spend some money on building up a EJ257 that you would eventually use with a turbo in Open class. to me that is a much sounder investment of your money. You also don't want to practice building up engines for your rally car without testing it thoroughly BEFORE using it in a rally, because a weekend you payed a lot of money to race is not where you want to learn that you did something wrong.

Good luck with whatever you decide, when you are spending money on rally it always ends up being a compromise.

[409industries]

I think that the train of though behind running a reliable (even if its down on power motor) is probably your best bet. With all the 2.2's that you have, you could have some spare motors in case you are having issues in the middle of the racing season.

Have you considered not running Open class? Being unrestricted is awesome, but getting your ass handed to you all the time because you don't have a big power / turbo setup is probably going to get real old real quick. I have been told by many people that learning how to drive a slow car quickly translates very well to driving a powerful car quickly as well.

[Daniel B]

so you are building a car to have fun or do you have the funds to build a competitive car??? There is a very big difference in time, money and preparation.

I'm not sure I see things in such a polar way...

I have fun being competitive :mrgreen:

Seriously though, I have the budget to build a fun car this year. If I don't wreck it this year or next, I'll have the budget to build a competitive powertrain after that.

In responce to there being a big difference in time, money and preparation - I'm not sure the differece has to be that big. In Canada, I can think of at least one example of a very competitive team whos budget is far below the other teams they are currently beating. In the US, just think of Randy Zimmer. Time and preparation - I have time and I'm learing the art of preparation. In my oppinion those are THE two most important factors of the three you listed. I'll add to that comment by saying that I understand that a certain minimum (which is still alot of $$$) must be spent, but $$$ is not everything.

Just because you can, dosnt mean you should.

:shocked:

Does it mean I shouldn't?

Dont get me wrong I love the whole underdog thing. But at some point you want to be able to tell potential sponsors (family, friends, business partners, tv interviewers, magazine writers etc..) of your accomplishment or achievements in a particular class. If all you can say is i am having a blast coming in last all the time, because there are guys with WAY bigger bugets. Well thats OK, but at some pooint it is nice to get a trophy, plaque or medal (maybe even some money, tires etc.. if your luckey)

:oops: I'm not THAT slow...

in the begining try and focus on maximum seat time in what ever class.
Open class :lol2:

A low maitence car that dosnt break a lot of stuff and that is well prepaired will help. Aarons car is an excellent example. well built, with good parts and the support of DI peeps FTMFW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lets work backwards.

"the support of DI peeps":
My 'peeps' include a crew chief with years of rally experience - including podium finnishes at TARGA Newfoudland.

"good parts":
I haven't started assembling my car yet, but I'm pretty sure you'll aprove of my parts when the time comes.

"well built":
I agree 100%, Aaron's car IS and EXCELLENT example! Have I done anything so far that makes you think my car won't be well built?
http://www.dirtyimpreza.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=8553

[Daniel B]

bottom end = short block (its on the bottom, 'below' the heads)

longblock = bottom end and heads.

Thanks Jon, but I should have been more clear. I was wondering about the "to do" part ;)

What does it mean ~to do~ the bottom end?

[Daniel B]

You'll really want to pick up at least one book on rebuilding engines. They are more just nuts and bolts and metal parts. The most important thing to pay attention to is bearing clearances. Another consideration is the attention needed to keep metal parts from touching "scratching" the cylinder walls during reassembly.

Can you recomend a book? Or should I just look for anything that looks decent. I didn't even think about getting a book, Thanks!

Very cool that you're ready to learn what it takes to build motors, it isn't rocket science, but it has its science itself, porting, cams, bearing clearance, etc.

Good luck

I get a kick out of learning to do new things. Building a motor will be a new challenge (now or later) :eek:

[Daniel B]

My advice would be to use the 2.2 from the 'L' to get started. Drop it in the car, get it running how you see fit and diagnose the ticking noise (cross your fingers that it's just valves).

I like that idea. I was at the road coarse yesterday and one of the Subarus there threw a rod. Although it sounded similair, it died quickly and the noise was slightly different than mine. Mine has been driven for hundreds of kilometers without the ticking getting worse and it sounds a bit different.

Good luck with whatever you decide, when you are spending money on rally it always ends up being a compromise.

:crazy:

[UP2MTNS]

What does it mean ~to do~ the bottom end?

everything required to rebuild the shortblock:

bore
hone
install crank
install rings (w/correct clearances)
install pistons
install bearing (w/correct clearances)

optional:
balance crank

I'm sure I'm missing stuff. these are all things you should leave to a pro.

[lorenkb]

There are some things you must have a machine shop do, there are other things you can do yourself.

Bore/Hone/Balance must be done at a machine shop if you want it to be worth it (people have done honing at home, I think it's a waste of time and money)

Installation of bearings, crank, rods, pistons, and checking clearances can be done at home. After checking clearances, if anything is out of spec it's back to the machine shop.

Here's a video of a 240z project that gives a good idea of the steps for the bottom end. They start out with boring and honing. The little strips you see them putting on the crank bearings are plastigage. By assembling the bearings, crank, and rods dry (no oil used) along with a strip of plastigage you can check the oiling tolerances. Torque everything to spec, disassemble, and then measure the plastigage width to determine all of your tolerances.

DweBB5BrIUs

[Daniel B]

^^^That was a great video!

~~~~~

Okay, I'm leaning toward 2.2l power for now. I just want to figure out the best way to run it. I have a 2.2l ECU and wiring harness from my old OBS. It's ODB2 and I'm missing some of the system, like the charcoal cannister behind the right/rear wheel. I have the cannister from the 1.8l, the one in the engine bay. Anyone have any idea if the old cannister/location can be used? And, what else I may need to look for?

Or, idealy, does anybody have an ECU for an ODB1 2.2l?

I think I'll take Kevin's advice and trubleshoot the 'ticking' 2.2l first, then maybe see if I can throw together a decent spare with what's left...

The plan may change, but that's where I'm at right now.

Thanks.

EDIT: So, does anybody know what is needed to run the ODB2, other than the engine/harness/ECU? Or, Can an ODB2 engine/harness/ECU be altered (reliably) to remove excess required components (if there are any).

I'm learning alot here!

[g wilikers]

lots and lots of words

WOW! I think you forgot to read the most important part of my post. The last line "my .02"

I wish you the best. I only offered my point of view. I have never meet you, your car or your "peeps"

I have built a couple of engines and race cars over the last 25 years that i have been doing this for a living. Some of the engines i machined have competed and finished on the podium at the 24hrs of Nurburgring. So I do have some real life experience to draw from, not just conjecture. If YOU took anything i said as a judgment, and offended you, I apologize.

Good luck with your build. Keep your ears and mind open. I look forward to seeing your finished product.

Greg

[Daniel B]

WOW! I think you forgot to read the most important part of my post. The last line "my .02"

I may have underestimated the importance of that... :oops:

Good luck with your build. Keep your ears and mind open. I look forward to seeing your finished product.

Sorry if I sounded grumpy. I got three not-so-positive posts in three other threads before I responded to your post. I really didn't find your post to be nagative I was just feeling defensive at the time.

I do appreciate you taking the time to respond to my posts.

[g wilikers]

No prob. Remember if you ask for advice or opinions, you open yourself up to things you my not agree with. It is your choice weather or not to accept those things or let them affect you.

Greg

[Daniel B]

No prob. Remember if you ask for advice or opinions, you open yourself up to things you my not agree with. It is your choice weather or not to accept those things or let them affect you.

Greg

Point taken.

Now, back to the regularly schedualed program, I have a question for you:

The 2.2l block I have with 240,000kms, do you think it's possible that the shortblock (rod/crank bearings) could still be in good condition?

Possibly worth a new set of headgaskets (with decking of the heads), timing belt, water pump, etc., or should I just leave it alone because of the high kilometers?

[g wilikers]

The 2.2l block I have with 240,000kms, do you think it's possible that the shortblock (rod/crank bearings) could still be in good condition?

Possibly worth a new set of headgaskets (with decking of the heads), timing belt, water pump, etc., or should I just leave it alone because of the high kilometers?

first off is this a complete engine? if so then this is what i would do:

- I would remove the oil filter & cut it open (with a oil filter cutting tool. not a hack saw) in spec pleats for debris. If non found, proceed with additional work. if debris is found, then plan on using another engine or tearing apart what you have and rebuilding it.

- again assuming this is an engine that is complete or least assembled, perform compression & leak down test. If numbers are good, then proceed with maintenance stuff. timing belt, plugs, filter & filters etc.. If numbers are bad then get another engine or plan on at least a partial tear down.

i would not open up the engine unless you have to. once an engine is opened up, its one of those things that can eat a lot of money real quick. so focus on diagnosing what you have and go from there.

if you want to have a VERY good book on engine rebuilding i have a few copies of this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Sunnens-complete-cylinder-rebuilding-handbook/dp/B0006RNE2S

if you are interested i will sell you the book for 30.00 shipped ground in the lower 48 states or 25.00 + s&h to where ever you want. in fact i will make this book available to any one that wants it for the same price while supplies last.

hope this helps.

Greg

[Daniel B]

Ah shucks...

I drained the oil before I removed that engine (the one with 240,000kms). Will that test show damage from 'rod knock'? I'm thinking it wouldn't hurt to do it on the other engine that MAY just need a valve adjustment...

If the oil has just been changed - within ~500kms - will that test still work?

And will a compression/leakdown test still work on an engine that has had the oil drained?

Oil filter cutting tool like this?
http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecID=3421

I'll take the book, I'll send you a PM.

[g wilikers]

pm sent.

yes that is the correct tool. is the old oil filter is still on the engine? if so, then cut it open. if the engine was "knocking" you should see lots of metal sparkles in the filter media. if thats what you find, and have another engine, use the other engine. if not then before you crank the engine to perform the compression test, be sure there is oil in it.

greg

[g wilikers]

I'll take the book.

is packaged and awaiting the ups truck to pick it up. ups says you will see it on tues.

thanks

greg